Re-positioning the engine

[Hegg]

So, after spending plenty of time under my S1 and looking at the very worn motor mounts, I finally got my shipment of new motor mounts and am ready to dive in!

In principal, it seems pretty simple -- support engine, replace mounts. However, the reason for replacing them is because my old ones are warped about 0.5 - 0.75 inches forward (rubber fatigue) which causes things like 1st gear to not engage easily.

So, once I get them off, I need to move the entire engine back nearly an inch. I don't see an easy way to do this right off. Has anyone had experience in this? How do I get 'er lined up easily?

Thanks!

[Tony K]

Hegg,

What you are seeing is typical S1. The mounts - especially the exhaust side - squish forward and eventually tear.

A few things going from memory:

1) You will need to unbolt the downpipe; otherwise you can't lift the engine high enough to swap the mount. If you try, the downpipe touches the frame and then picks up the entire car!

2) Look at the transmission mounts - if the rubber parts look like they have been "pulled out" of their normal position, you probably want to replace them ($$$). Aside from this, repositioning the engine should not be difficult with the new mounts. I've had mine squish forward .5 inch every time, trans mounts are fine, and putting new motor mounts in has never been a problem.

3) The difficulty shifting might also be crossgate cable out of adjustment or missing parts/improperly put back together -or- bad rubber "bushings" or improperly put together front-to-back (left side) linkage. IIRC, both of these attach to the transmission/bellhousing, so at least for the crossgate cable, the engine shifting forward won't have much effect. If the engine is moved forward enough to affect the rod/linkage, I'd expect difficulty going into all three gears (either 1,3,5 or 2,4,R). When I changed motor mounts in the past, that never improved the shifting (car always shifted fine).

4) To get the engine and motor mount into place, I roughly follow this procedure:

a) u-channel bracket firmly attached to engine

b ) motor mount firmly attached to u-channel bracket

c) motor mount loosely attached to square bracket for frame (so can move around)

d) move/shift/wiggle motor around enough to get one of the four bolts of square bracket "started" to frame. leave it loose.

e) move/shift motor a little more to get a second one started. leave loose

f) last two should be easier to get started.

g) take turns tightening 4 bracket bolts and 1 motor mount nut

h) make little adjustments of engine so they all continue to turn easily

i) DON'T FORGET HEAT SHIELD!

j) This time around, I also wrapped my motor mount in hi-temp wrap similar to header wrap. Trying to make it last longer.

. . . don't forget about the "engine stabilizer bar" upgrade from Lotus (that later S2s had). This is a rod that connects the bellhousing to the frame around near the top left to help hold the engine from jumping up under acceleration. Poorly designed, but it does help.

Did you solve the hot running problem?

- T

Edited April 5, 2006 by Tony K

[Hegg]

Thanks for the reply! The reason I believe the motor mounts cause the shifting problems is because it's just barely not hitting 1st. If I get underneath the car and look at the firt shift-linkage you can see from underneath (near the radiator hoses), I can see that the linkage is just hitting the metal on the frame and if I could just move it back a little (probably about half the distance the mounts have warped), the it wouldn't hit the frame.

Even if it doesn't, the mounts need to be replaced anyway.

And yeah, I think the overheating is solved. At least I hope so!

[Hegg]

So I've finally got the mounts in and had time to get started. I've got the old ones out (not that big of a deal, overall), but I can't get the engine to move around at all to position the mounts so they'll drop in the holes. The whole engine was about 1 - 1.25 inches forward (that's how much the rubber is "squished"), so I need to move it back as I mentioned above.

But it won't move at all! And of course there's nothing really to pry on with a prybar since everything "stationary" is fiberglass or not in a position to pry against the block.

Any suggestions?

[JRTurbo909]

tony, thank you for all your knowledgable posts. you are truly an asset to this board...

shah

[slade]

sorry I can't help When mine broke loose, I could just jack up the engine and slip the bolts back in (uhh... Ideally anyways The bolts themselves provided the adventure )

[Hegg]

I am so frustrated and at the end of my rope on this situation. I cannot find any way at all to get the engine to move so that the new mounts will get anywhere near their holes. If I let the engine all the way down, the bolt holes are about 1.5 inches away from the bolts on the mounts. The engine needs to move backwards in the car still.

When I lift the engine from the oil pan (wooden boards between the jack and the pan of course), it won't move at all. Prying with a large metal bar doesn't seem to budge it.

And so I was rolling around underneath tonight and I don't see HOW it could move. The engine is bolted to the undertray basically and nothing forward of the motor mounts seems to be connected to any other part of the car, other than the large coolant hose from the water pump to the radiator. Other than that, however, the engine/tranny are connected to the wheels and exhaust, which don't seem to be capable of moving at all since they are bolted to the frame of the car. The exhaust downpipe (that I unbolted from the manifold) also does not move backwards at all, so even if the engine could be repositioned, the exhaust can't!

I've got to be missing something obvious here... If everyone seems to be replacing their motor mounts at the recommended interval (20k miles, right?), it can't be as hard as I seem to be making it. Do I need to unbolt the tranny? Do I need to suspend the car in the air by the frame (it's on drive-up ramps right now, although I temporarily raised the wheels off the ground to no avail)? Do I need to remove the body shell entirely? Should I just put the old mounts back in? What if I just part out the car? Leave it on the curb with a sign that says "free"?

Ok, ok, just kidding on the last 2! I still love the car of course, but I'm really frustrated at the moment. I've had the car in the air for nearly a month now trying to figure out how to get the engine back mounted!

I'll try to take some pictures this week and see if someone sees something obvious. Thanks in advance for any suggestions, and especially for moral support.

[USAndretti42]

I agree. The gearbox is bolted to the chassis at the back and there's not much scope for that to move, certainly not by over an inch. Thinking about it, if the installation is the same as an S2, the engine would be hard up against the body below the window to the cockpit if it were that far forward.

Have you got the mounts on the right way and on the right sides? Is the nut that tightens the rubber to the mount loose to give you maximum options. I've had the left-hand mount off my car a couple of times to remove the exhaust manifold and it's easy to get the bolts in. No levering required. Just loosen everything off and get bolts started and tighten progressively.

[nicksoldies]

PM me with a 'phone number. I'll try to help. I used to be 'on the spanner' for a living. I'm crap at typing and posting suggestions could take forever.

[WayneB]

Not a mine of S2 info, but unbolt the gearbox crossmember and see if the engine mounts will then bolt up OK.

If they do, then pry, jack, cajole the Gearbox mounts in.

If that is a no-go as the others have suggested, wrong motor mounts, bent motor mounts , motor mounts on incorrect positions or even frame damage (or poorly repaired)

[matk]

Hegg

Sent you a message with info on this, hope it helps.

Regards

Mat Kutub

1979 S2

[Hegg]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. I'll cool off for a day or two and then have at it again.

[Tony K]

When you removed the old mounts, did you remove the u-channel brackets that (mount to engine)? If you accidentally switch those left and right, it will be off.

Let me amend my earlier big long post, and add to it to remove the rear valance and the exhaust altogether, so all that's left on the car of the exhaust system is the manifold or header.

Yes, the wheels absolutely have to be off the ground. Put jack stands either under the frame on the cross-tube at the front of the engine (just behind the hand holes), or under the thick part of the body at the inside rear of the rocker panels (see manual or ask for help if not 100% sure of where I am talking about!).

- T

[USAndretti42]

Any progress, Hegg? HAve you found out why your engine is in the wrong place?

[eprsplit]

Be careful when you unbolt the two transaxle mounts as my car had shims (small area washers) that fell onto the garage floor.

I don't know if this an original fitment but something to look out for.

[Tony K]

Be careful when you unbolt the two transaxle mounts as my car had shims (small area washers) that fell onto the garage floor.

I don't know if this an original fitment but something to look out for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John,

Is that gold S2 in your avatar yours, and is that the one that was for sale in the past year (in AZ, I thought) that we all drooled over? Are you the person who was selling it and also has the Turbo Esprit, or are you the new owner? Either way, great car!

[ If you were the owner of that car about a year ago, I am one of the people who was interested in it (I ended up buying the white car in my avatar instead). . . ]

Cheers,

Tony

EDIT: Never mind! I just read the JPS thread that you and Shah hijacked! Congrats on the purchase -- you'll love it even more when it's back on the road!

Edited June 6, 2006 by Tony K

[JRTurbo909]

EDIT:  Never mind!  I just read the JPS thread that you and Shah hijacked!        Congrats on the purchase -- you'll love it even more when it's back on the road!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was gonna post about that thread until i saw ur edit. its a shame you dont live closer to the southern california crowd. we plan to meet up and see that gold beauty in person once everyone's cars are on the road...

Shah

[eprsplit]

Tony,

Thanks for the kind coments..............I have had it a few months and it is awesome.

Jim, the prior owner, said he had alot of calls on the car but most people were too far away.

Jim does have a 1984 Esprit turbo with 34,XXX miles on it for sale.

It is a nice car but the rear tires are so slick you can see the air in them......someone has been having fun!!!!

[JRTurbo909]

Jim is a great guy. I wanted to see that Countach his friend was trying to sell. Now that would be a fun car...

Shah

[eprsplit]

The lambo sold about a week before I got there, I wanted to see it too.

Jim has a real nice Ferrari 330 GTC.

[mka-z]

While in this subject, could anyone send a photo of the previously-mentionned engine stabiliser ?

I am about to fit one on my S2, I just would like it to be similar to what exists otherwise. On all photographs of S1 and S2 engines I never found such stabiliser.

I understand the purpose of the stabiliser is to take up, along with the engine mounts, on S1 and S2 because of the shafts being part of the suspension, the torque applied on the transmission/engine when cornering. Without the stabiliser, only the mounts take it up. This is easily

shown by a simple test: car on the ground, open the engine cover, then firmly apply transverse load with your leg on top of the rear wheels, in turn. This simulates the stress on the wheel during cornering. When doing so you will see the engine moving.

[JRTurbo909]

While in this subject, could anyone send a photo of the previously-mentionned engine stabiliser ?

I am about to fit one on my S2, I just would like it to be similar to what exists otherwise. On all photographs of S1 and S2 engines I never found such stabiliser.

I understand the purpose of the stabiliser is to take up, along with the engine mounts, on S1 and S2 because of the shafts being part of the suspension, the torque applied on the transmission/engine when cornering. Without the stabiliser, only the mounts take it up. This is easily

shown by a simple test: car on the ground, open the engine cover, then firmly apply transverse load with your leg on top of the rear wheels, in turn. This simulates the stress on the wheel during cornering. When doing so you will see the engine moving.

Yeah i would like more information about this as well. Any pictures?

Shah