Petrol Station Forecourts and Mobile Phones

[mayevora]

Been sent the attached info. I know in the UK it is not possible to fuel and walk away from the pump at the same time but what are the actual chances? If it is the 'spark' that possibly ignights vapour, is this still not possible when the key is turned in the ignition of other cars starting around you? 

 

 

Subject: Shell Oil Report!

 

In summary, don't use your mobile phone when putting petrol in your car.

Probably doesn't apply to diesels though.

 MARLIT FERRER GARCIA

Customer Relations Manager

Professional Products Divis

 

Shell Oil Comments - A MUST READ! 

Safety Alert! 

Here's some reasons why we don't allow cell phones in operating areas, propylene oxide handling and storage area, propane, gas and diesel refueling areas. 

The Shell Oil Company recently issued a warning after three incidents in which mobile phones (cell phones) ignited fumes during fueling operations 

In the first case, the phone was placed on the car's trunk lid during fueling; it rang and the ensuing fire destroyed the car and the gasoline pump. 

In the second, an individual suffered severe burns to their face when fumes ignited as they answered a call while refueling their car! 

And in the third, an individual suffered burns to the thigh and groin as fumes ignited when the phone, which was in their pocket, rang while they were fueling their car. 

You should know that: Mobile Phones can ignite fuel or fumes 

Mobile phones that light up when switched on or when they ring release enough energy to provide a spark for ignition 

Mobile phones should not be used in filling stations, or when fueling lawn mowers, boat, etc. 

Mobile phones should not be used, or should be turned off, around other materials that generate flammable or explosive fumes or dust, (I.e., solvents, chemicals, gases, grain dust, etc...) 

TO sum it up, Four Rules for Safe Refueling: 

1) Turn off engine 

2) Don't smoke

3) Don't use your cell phone - leave it inside the vehicle or turn it 0ff 

4) Don't re-enter your vehicle during fueling.

Bob Renkes of Petroleum Equipment Institute is working on a campaign to try and make people aware of fires as a result of 'static electricity' at gas pumps. His company has researched 150 cases of these fires. 

His results were very surprising: 

1) Out of 150 cases, almost all of them were women. 

2) Almost all cases involved the person getting back in their vehicle while the nozzle was still pumping gas. When finished, they went back to pull the nozzle out and the fire started, as a result of static. 

3) Most had on rubber-soled shoes. 

4) Most men never get back in their vehicle until completely finished. This is why they are seldom involved in these types of fires. 

5) Don't ever use cell phones when pumping gas 

6) It is the vapors that come out of the gas that cause the fire, when connected with static charges. 

7) There were 29 fires where the vehicle was re-entered and the nozzle was touched during refueling from a variety of makes and models. Some resulted in extensive damage to the vehicle, to the station, and to the customer. 

8) Seventeen fires occurred before, during or immediately after the gas cap was removed and before fueling began..

Mr. Renkes stresses to NEVER get back into your vehicle while filling it with gas. 

If you absolutely HAVE to get in your vehicle while the gas is pumping, make sure you get out, close the door TOUCHING THE METAL, before you ever pull the nozzle out. This way the static from your body will be discharged before you ever remove the nozzle. 

The Petroleum Equipment Institute, along with several other companies now, are really trying to make the public aware of this danger. 

So......a one in a million chance or a reality?

[Advantage]

Complete tosh. There have been some mobile related fires in the States, but these are attributed to drivers going back inside their vehicles to answer their phone while the autopump continues to fill the tank and the reulting static discharge from person to car igniting fumes.

A mobile phone on its own can't ignite petrol vapour, do a quick trawl on Youtube for the Mythbusters episode.

[Rich H]

Unless there was puddles of petrol lying around on a very hot day I can't see them reaching a level where ignition is possible by a lit match at head height let alone a mobile phone induced spark.

Remember cars drive through petrol stations and how many of them have red hot turbo's, ignition wire problems and so on, yet none of them blow up...

Ever had a static electricity shokc off your car? I do regularly, not blown up from that either...

Edited November 25, 2010 by Rich H

[mayevora]

Argee with both of those points (and seen the mythbusters episode) so why do we still hear this rubbish (if it is)

Petrol Stations still have signs up. Attendants will still talk over the tanoy at people using them ect ect

Fear of the unknown/fear of modern day myth being right or just plain ignorance?

[Bibs]

I think it was a knee jerk to a scouser in a polyester trackie catching fire at the Asda petrol station once! Similar to the no phones in hospital rule which I believe is now rescinded and I've not known of a plane bought down by a phone yet and I'm sure not everyone puts their phone into 'airplane' mode. If it were that vital to safety, they'd not let you on with them.

In this country, if anything happens, everything about it is legislated against. That's why we have so much H&S bullshit unfortunately.

[simonb]

The phones in aeroplanes on is more about 300 phones all at the same moment switching from one mast / national operator to another. I had heard that the networks dont like hundreds of phones locking on and off masts at several hundred mph

[Bibs]

What influence do phone operators have over airlines? I can see that it may cause an issue but surely they can program in a set of rules which cancel phone signals for handsets whose signal becomes 'different' or problematic due to the speed it's travelling at.

[Nelly]

I know it was for fun but Braniac had a caravan doused in petrol filled with mobile phones and then rang them all at the same time to see if it ignited....nothing.

They blew it up anyway !!!!!

[lrg_machine]

I think petrol stations in the UK are classed as zone one hazardous areas, (explosive vapour is expected during normal running) I may be wrong on this it's been 10 years since I did any of this stuff, anyway it's probably more due to the idea that electrical equipment has to be classified for use in hazardous areas (mobiles aren't) and it's better to be safe than sorry, you can't test every mobile in every situation so turn them all off, just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont.

Blow up petrol station... There's an app for that

Edited November 25, 2010 by lrg_machine

[Petrol feet driven]

Its not the phones thay need to worry about, its the bloody idiots that drive in to a petrol staition with there cars already on fire!!!

[red vtec]

I read that its complete B00l0cks, and that there are no recorded instances of Phones setting Petrol stations alight.

As stated I would think it would be more chance of igniting when you start the car, switch the radio/lights etc on...

[mdw]

I understood it was person on phone whilst filling , drops phone, battery pops out as phone hits floor causing chance of a spark igniting vapour on the floor.

[fmxa]

++ for total BS on the cell phone. Roughly three-quarters of the static-caused fires involved women, who apparently have a greater tendency to return to the vehicle while refueling!

[Rich H]

I can see it being explosive atmosphere type rules.

[Bibs]

My turbo glows bright red it's so hot, there are no rules about that on a forecourt and it's pretty much exposed to the atmosphere.

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

Whatever you do it's impossible to stop those freak gas fight accidents...

[rocket63]

I have the technicalposition on this matter......................Totalboloxus

[andydclements]

Unfortunately not complete tosh. It's not a spark in the 'phone that does it, it's the magnetic waves generated by the transmission that induce a small current in a metallic path. It's unlikely, but not impossible and has happened.

I know of a guy who lost a lot of facial skin due to a petrol tank going up in flames ignited by a mobile telephone, not at a petrol station though.

[lrg_machine]

As I said in my earlier post, the general use of a mobile is highly unlikely to cause ignition of fuel vapour, however, it's not so much the use of a mobile but the ESD electro static discharge that could occur from using a device like this.

Things to consider

the fuel to air ratio needs to be correct for ignition

the ignition source needs to be sufficient

a quote from Shell

“…portable cell phones properly used do not represent a meaningful hazard on

the retail forecourt. Without doubt, apart from the human acts of smoking and

striking a match, the thing that represents the greatest hazard on the retail

forecourt is the motorcar!”

That said most accidents caused have been due to ESD.

So next time you're filling up and a dog comes up to you, think twice before you start patting it or rubbing it's fur near the pump.....

You have been warned

Ohh yeah!

And just because the Mythbusters say it's busted, doesn't mean it is.

No matter how foxy Kari Byron is

Edited November 25, 2010 by lrg_machine

[cazna52]

Andydclements is correct. Any radio wave can induce a current in any conductor. Heinrich Hertz and Guglielmo Marconi both did experiments in which they induced a spark in rings or coils that were not connected to a power source but were powered by a nearby source of radio waves. You can get tacky little key rings that hang from your mobile phone and flash when there is a call, these are powered the same way. There are even accessories for phones now that charge the phone without having to plug in the phone instead you just put the phone on an induction pad, they are even working on powering televisions and other devices with this technology.

It is very definite that power can be transmitted by radio waves. If sufficient power is transmitted and collected by a conductor it is possible to create a spark. A phone alone in a plastic container full of fuel vapor can't achieve this, there needs to be some kind of receiver. In the real world this could be as simple as some steel body panels with a gap that happen to be in the right configuration or a coat hanger that is being used as a radio antenna.

It would probably be a one in a million chance that a mobile phone could ignite fuel vapor, but there are a hell of a lot of fuel bowsers, cars and mobile phones in the world.

It was very irresponsible for Myth Busters to claim that mobile phones can't start a fuel vapor fire. Myth Busters are simply not intelligent or knowledgeable enough to devise a worst case scenario experiment and they only replicate experiments at most a couple of times. Their scientific method is terrible. It is impossible to prove that something cannot happen. If you can not cause something to happen you have only proved conclusively that the exact conditions you tested under do not guarantee that result every time. A proper experiment should be done many many times under differing conditions and with conditions designed by someone intelligent enough to devise worst case scenario experiments.

The way that Myth Busters "Busted" this myth was totally invalid. It is like trying to disprove that a die (single dice) can be weighted to make 6 come up more frequently than the other numbers, then take an unweighted dice, blow on it, roll it once and if it doesn't come up as 6 proclaim the myth as busted.

[lrg_machine]

"It would probably be a one in a million chance that a mobile phone could ignite fuel vapor, but there are a hell of a lot of fuel bowsers, cars and mobile phones in the world."

I think I made that point in my first post, better safe than sorry.

people do win the lottery most weeks!

Flying is the safest form of travel but planes do crash!

personally I think mobile phones are the bane of the modern world and welcome the day when they're treated the same way as smoking.

And as far as Mythbusters go, they do produce a very entertaining show even if most of their methods are somewhat suspect, they are NOT professors of physics, chemistry or engineering, they're special effects bods with a workshop and a budget.

Edited November 26, 2010 by lrg_machine

[Bibs]

Has anyone crashed a plane with a mobile phone?

[Sparky]

Nope. Zero effect, but they do indeed cause mast greyouts in sufficient numbers.

[MPx]

Very interesting posts - cetainly taught me stuff I didn't know. But I still think its B'x.

What have been described here are various risk scenarios. All of them are "very low" risk, and most are miniscule. By legislating against miniscule risk taking, the authorities are attempting to achieve to a zero risk. "But if it saves one life...." No....zero risk means not doing anything at all ever.

There are many risks associated with moving about, operating machines, climbing a ladder, etc. Many of them have a significantly higher probability of materialising than a mobile phone blowing up a fuel pump. Never-the-less most of these activities are choices that our species have opted to do rather than not do. Its daft logic to allow me to climb a ladder but not use a mobile near a petrol station. "But if it saves one life...." No...I may trip over the pump hose and crack my head on the curb (I'm sure I could find the 1:1000000 who its happened to) so we should also ban pump hoses and solid curbs....and anything else with that probability of occurance.

So what we really need to do is be a bit more realistic, honest and consistent about what level of carnage we are willing to risk. Then expect a bit of self responsibility from everybody not to be a complete twat instead of trying to invent a new rule for every situation where someone might get hurt. Obviously there will have to be a new offence called something like "dangerous living" to put a reign on the complete twats - but at least the rest of us shouldn't then have to put up with quite so much tosh being put about on the back of Health and Safety. "But if it saves just one life....." No....!!!

[Bibs]

This is exactly what we saw on our recent trip to Holland. If you crossed the street, look for pedestrians, bikers, motorists, motorcyclists, cyclists and trams and if you didn't see them because you weren't paying attention, it's up to you to deal with the fallout. You knew they might be coming, you knew to look for them and it's your lookout to see them before you make the decision to cross safely. If you didn't, you should have paid more attention as you knew they might be there. Makes you look twice.

Very refreshing, wonderful to see people taking responsibility for their own actions rather than relying on legislation to wrap them in cotton wool.