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I'm with Mr Heath. :dizzy:

I have also decided that I am no longer going to have any opinion on this whatsoever. If I watch this year, I'll cheer for whoever I feel like and I'll be happy.

Personally I don't see much difference between 4 Lotus cars going round and around versus the Red Bulls and the Toro Rosso cars. At least the Lotus are going to be different colours.

Edited by ramjet

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

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Let’s take a new view towards the whole situation:

Proton pumps millions into Lotus/Genni by sponsoring them, Bahar will (soon) become a Director at Genii, Bahar is very good friends with Todt(s). Fact: Lotus are looking for backing in return for capital. Lotus 5 year plan includes 5 new cars and I feel confident Lotus soon runs out of money due to Bahar overspending and poor business acumen and Proton has to sell to get tax payer money back. But they can't as Bahar puts the scuppers on any sale apart from one that helps him, so Lotus sells at distressed price. Genii increases their stake and own Lotus. Bahar now owns a large part of Lotus.

After buying at a distressed price Genii and Bahar (or even Todt) sell Lotus at a non distressed price and make millions.

The new owners find out soon that everything was smoke and mirrors and employ someone who knows what to do, as an advisor. The big return of Mr Lotus: Mike Kimberley.

Lotus go back to being Lotus instead of Ferrari and Renault and I would liked to add: “and they live happily ever after. The end.” But then my story would have been a fairy tale, while I honestly do hope this will become reality (rather sooner than later).


Calypso Rose Rules the World!

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But then my story would have been a fairy tale....

Oh no, it's not.... oh yes, it is! More of a pantomime unfortunately.

Still it's really given this, and other, posts some legs during the closed season.


In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.<br />

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In practice, there is!

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Personally I don't see much difference between 4 Lotus cars going round and around versus the Red Bulls and the Toro Rosso cars. At least the Lotus are going to be different colours.

There isn't 4 Lotus cars, there is a 2 Lotus cars and 2 Renaults, the FIA would not allow 4 Lotus cars. Teams can only have two cars


What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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You know what Toro Rosso means in English, right?


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=42873

^ The plot thickens - Dany Bahar appointed to the board of one of the companies that owns the team.

If he is being paid (personally) to be a director then surely that is a massive conflict of interests?

You can not spend millions of your employers money on advertising / sponsoring a company then start accepting money personally from that company without raising a few eyebrows. It may be that this is an unpaid position, or perhaps any payment goes back to Group Lotus but these days in business you dont just have to be squeaky clean you have to be seen to be squeaky clean.

If the money Group Lotus has spent on F1 was for an equity stake in the team then of course it would be different - it would make sense for someone from Group Lotus to be on the board to protect their investment, but according to the press reports the money paid by Group Lotus is just advertising / sponsorship.

As you say the plot thickens.

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The new owners find out soon that everything was smoke and mirrors and employ someone who knows what to do, as an advisor. The big return of Mr Lotus: Mike Kimberley.

I would like to point out that my father has retired on a permanent basis due to ill health and while I don't agree with the policies at Lotus at present i wouldn't like to see them go bust or suffer severe financial difficulty.


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To be completely accurate there are no Lotus cars on the grid at all this year and there hasn't been since the early 90's.

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You know what Toro Rosso means in English, right?

Yes, Red Bull, but because they are names, it always appears as Toro Rosso.

To be completely accurate there are no Lotus cars on the grid at all this year and there hasn't been since the early 90's.

Technically yes, but Team Lotus chassis have been designed as part of the Lotus initiative by the Malaysian Government to boost Proton's sales.


What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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Yes, Red Bull, but because they are names, it always appears as Toro Rosso.

Explain?

Technically yes, but Team Lotus chassis have been designed as part of the Lotus initiative by the Malaysian Government to boost Proton's sales.

Explain?

Random statements are easy. :)


Cliff

Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed. : Albert Einstein

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I would like to point out that my father has retired on a permanent basis due to ill health and while I don't agree with the policies at Lotus at present i wouldn't like to see them go bust or suffer severe financial difficulty.

It's a shame, as I would have liked to see MJK back at Lotus. I'm not happy with the whole situation and the sooner Bahar is gone, the better for the company. The only thing he has proven so far, is that he is really good at telling lies (about the funding and the F1) and being a big show off. Where are the new cars??? And I mean really new cars. Not the Esprit I saw in Paris, which is basically the Esprit that was developed under MJK with a new body shell on it. Bahar hasn't proven a thing yet.

GKP what are you saying? To me there is one Team Lotus on the grid. Once again I would like to say that Team Lotus and Lotus Cars were split from the beginning, the only thing in common was Colin Chapman. They had separate buildings, personnel, budgets, ... And TF bought the rights from David Hunt last year. Ferrari is funded by Abu Dhabi (Mubadala), Enzo FErrari is long death, and most key positions in the team are filled with foreigners, so are you saying that isn't Ferrari either???

Edited by Exploded

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No there isn't. Just because someone pays a sum of money for an amount of unused headed paper, it brings nothing to the grid. Just a name. No heritage, no history, no romance, no tech, nothing. Just a name. Might as well be called Vanwall.

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The Ferrari situation is different. I don't think Mubadala put much money into the team now as they have sold many of their shares back to Ferrari, but they are supported by FIAT as they have been since the 70's. However, the big difference is the continuity. Ferrari has been racing in F1, without a break, since Enzo Ferrari's death and his son is still involved while the Chapman family sold their heritage in the 90's and Team Lotus dropped out of F1 shortly after and shut up shop. When they returned last year, no-one from the old team was involved, at least at a management level. When the FIA was looking for entries to the 2010 championship, there was a team that was going to call itself "Brabham" that attempted to enter. It had no link to the old Brabham team (last owner, Bernie Ecclestone) and Jack Brabham and his family went to court to stop them using the name. However, the McLaren team, while not linked to Bruce McLaren, has been in existence continuously since Bruce's time, with one of the members of Bruce's team (Tyler Alexander) retiring only recently. It's like a GT40 that raced at Le Mans in the 60's compared to one that was made from a kit. It's all about provenance and continuity.


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It's nice to see such innovations on the car as the position of the exhaust.

This reminds me of the ingenuity of a british team in the old days?

So far Genii Capital Racing looks to be more innovative than 1Malaysia Racing. 1 - 0 :rolleyes:


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Hmm - I'm of a different opinion with regards to continuity.

Ferrari is a good example - Is ferrari the same thing as it was when Enzo was running it?

In my mind, it's not.

It's like is Group Lotus the same now DB is running the show to when MJK was? In my mind... no.

No different to saying was Group Lotus the same as when CC was running it to MJK? again I'd have to say no.

I'm not saying things are better or worse but inevitably things are just different. No entity can surive a significant amount of time without change. The Morgan Aero8 isn't made out of wood but doesn't make it any less a morgan.

What is key is the core principles and beliefs... Spirit if you will. This is easier to embody when you have continuity of people that share the mindset but I do believe that even with a complete staff change you can find that initial spark again and justify a name.

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Personally I think its down to being a Constructor. Colin always built his own cars, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have dreamed of paying to put his badge on another chassis. Also Team Lotus has always been and always will be a Norfolk team for me.

Continuity is an issue with both Teams surely. And Provenance? we've discussed before. In the same way that TF team is not the Team Lotus of old you could say exactly the same about a Renault with Group Lotus Sponsorship. Gert is right in that Group were always seperate. Speak to any people at Lotus at the time. We all know this to be true.

So both Teams have their own particular attraction for me. Group Lotus backed Renault because I can see it doing well if last year was anything to go by and its the chosen team of Group, and "Team Lotus" because it, at the very least, is a Norfolk based team and a Constructor which is totally true to the Team Lotus ethos of old.

Add in my friends working with TF team and I will back what I consider to be the closest to the Original Team Lotus (if they are not actually them), but wish Group Lotus well with their sponsorship.

Based on what I have said above. Should Group Lotus buy Renault/Genii and make their own chassis in Norfolk I would support them without hesitation.


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So both Teams have their own particular attraction for me. Group Lotus backed Renault because I can see it doing well if last year was anything to go by and its the chosen team of Group, and "Team Lotus" because it, at the very least, is a Norfolk based team and a Constructor which is totally true to the Team Lotus ethos of old.Based on what I have said above.

I agree, there is no reason that they can't both be in F1 together, as long as they maintain their own identity and don't use the original Team Lotus history, as the history does not belong to either of them technicallr., TF's team running as "Team Lotus", and Group's team running as something like "Lotus Racing", (can't think of anything more creative at the minute).

The only slight problem there may be is the Team Lotus' chassis is called a "Lotus" meaning that GL could not call their chassis a "Lotus". There is no need for this legal dispute, the only thing it is doing is tarnishing both the Lotus and Team Lotus brand.


What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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In what way is it tarnishing the brand?

They have had massive publicity as a consequence of this.

Both enterprises have capitilised.

Most people wont even know about it outside of any interest in Formula one and those that do know about it will understand the very nature of the issue as discussed in this forum.

Not sure that Proton / Lotus shares have nose dived or that car sales and any other diverse interests are affected.

Im sure Bernie does not give a hoot either, as it is all keeping F1 in the spot light and has numerous people discussing the conflict.

Pure conjecture and with no foundation what so ever?


Caught between a rock and a hard place in a catch 22 situation, So its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Your damned if you do, but your damned if you don't so shut your cock!!!!!!!!!!!

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I just mean seeing companies in a legal battle squabbling over something petty, it doesn't make them look good.

I'm not have a go or anything, I'm simply just expressing my opinion


What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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Also Team Lotus has always been and always will be a Norfolk team for me.

"We will race with a Malaysian licence," Lotus Racing spokesman Tom Webb said on Tuesday.

It means that if the T127 wins a race in 2010, it will not be God Save The Queen that is played on the podium, but instead 'Negaraku', the Malaysian national anthem.

Read more: Linky

So in 2010 TF's team ran under a Malaysian licence and there is no reason to suggest it will be different this year. However Renault will be racing under a British licence so God Save the Queen would be played if they won.

Lotus Renault will race in Formula One with a British licence, meaning that if Robert Kubica or Vitaly Petrov win a race, it will be God Save The Queen rather than La Marseillaise that is played on the podium in 2011. Linky


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Despite promising not to mention Lotus for a day...

Joe Saward speculates...


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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Renault playing God save the Queen seems a bit unnecessary, if Lotus are funding, then the Malysian anthem might be better for backers. Keeping their head down and playing the French one would also have been a safe bet

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Hi, this is my first post.

The F1 stuff's all quite ironic really...

I buy a 1976 Elite 503 to refurb, then my employers announce they've done a deal and joins hands with Lotus... heh heh!

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Nice one Jack.

I'm not have a go or anything, I'm simply just expressing my opinion

And the same here old chap !


Caught between a rock and a hard place in a catch 22 situation, So its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Your damned if you do, but your damned if you don't so shut your cock!!!!!!!!!!!

Lotus Espirt Turbo S3    

Lotus Esprit S4 

Lotus Elise S2 Sport 130

pig_zps6d7342f1.jpg

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Ok so I will admit my laziness in not reading the last 17 pages in full. What is the true situation with the Lotus Renault team? Is it really just the factory sponsoring an existing F1 team or will there be a practical hands on input in the future and help with development?

Cheers

Buddsy


 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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