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Is it even possible for this whole contrivance to become more bizarre? With paint, a badge and OPM, Group Lotus/Proton buys their way into the midfield. Who do they think they have fooled? If they were so willing to buy into Renault, why couldn't they simply have "pooled their efforts" and done the same with Team Lotus?

Yes, it will be exciting to see 4 "Lotuses" on the grid, but the brand confusion will remain, perhaps even increase for the public at large. A consolidated team would be a so much more efficient use of resources and money. But noooooooo........The penis wars continue.

You could say exactly the same about Red Bull having two teams. The livery is near enough the same for those cars, that doesn't seem to confuse anybody.

The press have done the usual blow it out of all proportions, Group Lotus don't want the Team Lotus name. They only have a problem with Team Lotus using the Lotus part of the name for commercial gain.

The reason for this is Group Lotus is the renaming of Lotus Engineering Limited which is the company that started it all in 1952. Team Lotus separated from Lotus Engineering Limited in 1954. Due to this Team Lotus used the Lotus part of the name under permission of Lotus Engineering Limited. This has remained the same with any of the companies that have used the Lotus name in motorsports or production. Classic Team Lotus have a licence agreement with Group Lotus to use the Lotus part of the name, so they can use it for commercial reasons.

If Team Lotus was to get a licence agreement with Group Lotus, none of this would of gone public. We would have two teams running the Lotus branding, without all the publicity that is hurting the Lotus name.

1Malaysia only want the Lotus name for commercial gain, it doesn't want to pay Group Lotus for this pleasure. It's a Malaysian team trying to use a British icon for nothing more than looking like they have a history, which they have none at all.

Group Lotus have a history, it's the renaming of Lotus Engineering Limited that started it all!

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I have to think that Tonf F would make more money if he pushed his own AirAsia and other brands. I think he'd also make more money by taking the cash and time invested in F1 and putting it elsewhere... But he's not - I do honestly think it's not for direct financial gain.

The problem we have now is that we have one team that has history but are nothing more than a glorified sponsor and the other has no history but at least building their own car.

Would have been so much better to all have a group hug and collaborate under the one team which is what I think most people were hoping for. However I suspect it was a clash of peronsalities that rendered this impossible.

This is nothing like red bull - they were using torro rosso almost as a R&D and driver training program but fell foul of the change in rules making such an approach not as effective. I'm surprised TR haven't been sold.

What we have here with lotus is two teams that will bitterly fight each other.. haredly helpful for anyone.

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What we have here with lotus is two teams that will bitterly fight each other.. haredly helpful for anyone.

No publicity is bad publicity

An engineered rivalry between Lotus & Lotus will keep them in the headlines.

Fernandes team have already been very media friendly (consider the amount of BBC time they had compared to Virgin) Will be interesting to see if Bahar can be as savvy

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Dany Bahar had planned to go into F1 in 2009, problem was the lack of funds at that time.

Proton decided it would be in the best interest of Group Lotus to allow 1Malaysia to use the Lotus name under licence, the Group had no choice but to go along with the parent company.

I blame Proton for the mess, they wanted Malaysia to be represented in F1. The problem is you can't use a British brand to promote Malaysia.

I think it would be better for Team Lotus to run under the Proton name, this would allow them to promote Malaysia in the correct way. That way both of the companies would be represented in F1, which could only be a good thing. TF would be a god among Malaysians if he went down this path, it would also put Malaysia on the map as a serious motorsport entity.

Let David Hunt have Team Lotus back, as Group Lotus don't want it.

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"Let David Hunt have Team Lotus back, as Group Lotus don't want it. "

But Tony Fernandes does want the name and paid for that right (something Proton could have done but didn't) You mentioned that Tony should have paid a licensing fee to Lotus Engineering . Why should he? They have no say per Colin Chapman's legal design and as such the big screw up in all this was Proton should have bought back the name legally to move everything "Lotus" named back in house. Instead they are trying to circumvent/ignore the legality of the situation get something back for free that was legally sold off. People may not like it, but the law is the law and no amount of misinformation by Proton is going to change that they lacked due diligence when purchasing what is now "Group Lotus" only finding out later that it did not include "TEAM Lotus" and failing to ante up the money to correct their mistake. (a mentality of "if we believe it and say it enough times, and bully people enough, then other people will believe it and it will happen -screw the law"). When you look at all the money Bahar is throwing around now it is truly stupid that Proton didn't buy back the name from David Hunt if they ever intended to race in F1. Proton made their mess, now lie in it!!! Face it, there is no direct DNA lineage of "TEAM LOTUS" anymore, so who best to start anew? (group Lotus has not been building F1 cars) I see Fernandes as a real racer (taking his own money from Malaysia air to go racing )vs Dany Bahar -the PR, song and dance man. Bahar is all talk, razzle-dazzle, while Fernandes is "roll up your shirt sleeves" action.

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Lets all pick on Dany Bahar its all his fault!

This is the man who is trying his best to turn Group Lotus around from what was certain death.

He has the knowledge of what it takes to make a F1 team, just look at Red Bull. He has also been involved with Ferrari F1, helping market the brand.

It's true no one owns the rights to Team Lotus history, so no one should be able to buy those rights, they should go to the closest link.

I would like Clive Chapman to own the rights to Team Lotus, he is the closest link to Chapman's Team Lotus. He could then licence that history to Group Lotus for the planned Heritage Centre at Hethel or they could come to a arrangement that the licences are exchanged for no fee.

Dany Bahar has said he does not want to use Team Lotus, to him it belongs to Colin Chapman's era of Lotus. He wants Group Lotus to earn its own history in F1!

You have to respect that he is not trying to use a past history, which 1Malaysia are trying to do.

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I can see it now. Dany jumps in his foot powered New Esprit (the "classic" one being parked for the winter) for a morning jaunt across the A11, through Wymondham and over to Hingham.....

"Top of the mornin' to you, Tony. Was wondering if I might borrow a cup of sugar from you. Seem to have run a bit low on sweetener at the Factory. Tea's been tasting on the bitter side as of late. Oh, and say, that's a very nice wind tunnel you've built yourself there. Mind if I bring over my newest attempt at grid redemption for a testing session? We're a bit short on facilities at the moment.....having blown quite a wad of cash on fancy parties in L.A. and edgy spandex avant garde videos and all that. What's that, you say? You're a bit busy doing actual construction of your own original entry? How quaint, my good man. We've managed to circumvent that little detail by throwing even more money at an established marque's effort. Quite clever don't you think? How's that? Why yes, we are indeed banking on the gullibility of our fans to buy into this shameless ploy to latch onto your very admirable coattails, and present ourselves in after the fact fashion as the true spirit of Lotus F1, historical facts notwithstanding."

"Well, good sir, thanks for the lend of the sugar. Have to be off now. There's a party schedule to keep, you know. I'd send you an invitation, but it's not in my contract, sport. Toodles!"

Edited by Iconic Ride

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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I'm guessing that Lotus-Renault will be based in Enstone, not Hethel...

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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"I would like Clive Chapman to own the rights to Team Lotus, he is the closest link to Chapman's Team Lotus. He could then licence that history to Group Lotus for the planned Heritage Centre at Hethel or they could come to a arrangement that the licences are exchanged for no fee."

I believe the surviving Chapman's sold off their interest in TEAM Lotus to David Hunt. So once sold it's not theirs to license (or do you expect David Hunt to not use what he paid for??)

Also from this article is the quote from Clive Chapman which should say a lot: “What made the day for me was Clive Chapman coming to me and giving me his father’s black cap,” Fernandes said. “He said: ‘You are the man who is going to carry on my father’s tradition’.” http://joesaward.wor...-the-black-cap/

Yes, Ideally the car company and F1 team should have been reunited after Chapman's' death, but it didn't happen that way. I still maintain the best thing would have be for Group Lotus and Team Lotus to cross license, with Fernandes keeping the ownership rights to run the team as he sees fit and possibly giving Group Lotus first rights to acquire the team if he chooses to sell. If it were done this way Group Lotus would have far less financially invested in F1 (Fernandes bearing the major costs) and that is money Group Lotus could better invest elsewhere to save the car company.

As one example of what PR man Dany could spend his some of his money on instead of F1 for a season is a 1 minute Superbowl commercial for launch of the new Esprit. It would be a totally frivolous and decadent spending of cash, not targeting 99.9% of the audience watching, excepting the .1% of the "nouveau riche", but think of the buzz it would create!!! Similar to Apple's 1984 commercial for the Macintosh, everyone in the US would say "what was that all about? (something for a PR guy to have wet dreams about) !!!! It could end with the phrase "Light is Right" (except other people are already using that, including Apple) http://pcworld.about...080aid44667.htm

Maybe something like a Stig character running the living daylights of an Esprit and at the end he removes his helmet and reveals Mario Andretti saying "who do you think it was?" gazing over at the Type 79 parked nearby.

(at least I'd rather see 1 minute of a pure exotic car ad than "Cirque du Lotus" naked men dancing over an Esprit) devil.gif

Edited by comem47
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The problem we have now is that we have one team that has history but are nothing more than a glorified sponsor and the other has no history but at least building their own car.

This is nothing like red bull - they were using torro rosso almost as a R&D and driver training program but fell foul of the change in rules making such an approach not as effective. I'm surprised TR haven't been sold.

What we have here with lotus is two teams that will bitterly fight each other.. haredly helpful for anyone.

I suppose that as Group Lotus own 50% of what was Renault F1, they are, effectively, building their own car.

spot on with the comment about Red Bull and Scuderia Toro Rosso.

S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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" 'Scuse me, Mr. Bahar.....wuzzat you sed? 'Right of brand, or slight of hand?' "

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Car looks fantastic, but those red end plates have to go black

Maybe this, instead?:devil:

200px-Total.svg.pngLYBOGUS

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Lets all pick on Dany Bahar its all his fault!

This is the man who is trying his best to turn Group Lotus around from what was certain death.

He has the knowledge of what it takes to make a F1 team, just look at Red Bull. He has also been involved with Ferrari F1, helping market the brand.

It's true no one owns the rights to Team Lotus history, so no one should be able to buy those rights, they should go to the closest link.

I would like Clive Chapman to own the rights to Team Lotus, he is the closest link to Chapman's Team Lotus. He could then licence that history to Group Lotus for the planned Heritage Centre at Hethel or they could come to a arrangement that the licences are exchanged for no fee.

Dany Bahar has said he does not want to use Team Lotus, to him it belongs to Colin Chapman's era of Lotus. He wants Group Lotus to earn its own history in F1!

You have to respect that he is not trying to use a past history, which 1Malaysia are trying to do.

Oddly I was under the distinct impression that Michael Kimberley was the individual most reciently sucessful with as you put it "turn Group Lotus around from what was certain death", he produced a logical economic plan that made sound sense for Lotuses future survival, some of which is actually being implemented by Mr.Bahar who likes to create the impression that they are all of his own making.

If you delve into Mr.Bahars past history, he may implement a plan to take a company in a certain direction, but seems to leave before the grand plans come to fruition, leaving others to make them seemingly work.

Red Bull is a energy drink company that has a product with very high profitability,it was already making a huge profit before Mr.Bahar appeared, Ferrari is.part of the Fiat empire which is in a dreadfull financial state and by the grace of the italian Government is able to survive..

I fail to see how his involvement with either company ensured their longterm survival or radically changed the situations they are in..

As for his current plans, that are costing a fortune BTW we will not be judging the sucess or failure of them until years from now when Mr.Bahar will have moved on to greener pastures (read new suckers to invest in his grandiouse schemes)

My worry is that Lotus will be in such a poor financial state and in catostrophic debt by then, (over 700 million + in the hole?) nobody will be able to afford to step in and save them.

SUNP0003-1.jpg
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After careful ( 5 seconds) deliberation I've voted to support Group Lotus (Renault), in that they're more likely to do some good for 'our' Lotus. Tony Fernandes and Mike Gascoigne seem to be generally good blokes and I wish them well (and was cheering the green cars on this season). But being objective they're Air Malaysia GP (or whatever) running on 'cherished plates', whereas the new Lotus Renault feels more like a (albeit Proton owned) factory effort. Sure, Chapman ran 'Cars' and 'Team' as separate concerns but he himself was the common link...Bahar is taking Lotus Cars to a place I'll never be able to afford to visit, but thinking about all those guys at Hethel with mortgages to pay, I have to concede that his vision and ability to get things moving is breathtaking.And before we all jump to lynch anyone, it could be that this has all happened fairly quickly and he's HAD to act aggressively to protect his employer's assets and rights.

Couldn't agree more.

IMO Lotus Racing was never more than a label with a really bad logo. Sorry.

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Meanwhile Tony Fernandes has announced the oldl new team Lotus will run in green and yellow...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88663

All good natured stuff , might not be a bad thing either as he points out... rolleyes.gif

"But every cloud has a silver lining, and I received some messages from people suggesting that by being black and gold we would be promoting a cigarette company. I wasn't actually aware that JPS [John Player Special] was still being sold in the United Kingdom and various parts of the Commonwealth. So did I need that controversy? No.

Nice work Tony! cheers.gif

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

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Is there anyone who thinks Dany Bahar would have stepped into F1 if Tony Fernadez would not have formed the Lotus Racing team, or bought the team Lotus rights. Should Bahar have taken the risk that the team of Tony was to become so big that all the Lotus fans would have bought Lotus F1 merchandise opposed to Group Lotus merchandise.

The big mistake of this all was Proton providing the rights to Tony to use the Lotus name. It's best for the brand if Tony sticks another badge on its cars asap.

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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F1 merchandise sales form a tiny, tiny part of the budgets of teams, it's really very insignificant.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

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What do they need to protect? Team Lotus is providing (intentionally or unintentionally--it makes no difference) brand publicity (and thus far in a highly positive manner, at least for F1 fans). And isn't that precisely what Colin Chapman had in mind during Lotus' heyday?

Tony Fernandes has no intention of building Lotus branded street vehicles. How could he?

What Tony and Colin very much share is/was an obvious passion for racing, and specifically under the Lotus provenance. Tony was, in fact, given "a mandate" by Proton. He has honoured that call in spades, only to have Group Lotus do everything they can to try to pull the rug out from underneath him. I would find it more than fitting if he and his very able and strongly motivated team manage to end next year's season ahead of Lotus Renault.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that Proton did not have a the right to give a mandate to Tony as they did not have the rights to the name in the first place. What do I know? I'm just an F1 fan and terminally confused part Lotus owner who, like most Lotus owners, is struggling to see the common sense through the legal-speak, business-hype and ego-massaging posturing. Once again the true winners will be the lawyers,

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.<br />

<br />

In practice, there is!

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