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Can someone actually tell me what the physical Lotus content is in either of the cars?

For the Enstone Group Lotus Renault team, initially at least, it is the logo and the word "Lotus" painted on the car. I presume in future there may be technical resources shared between Hethel and Enstone.

For the Hingham Lotus Racing team (Team Lotus in 2011), it depends whether you think ownership of the "Team Lotus" trademark entitles them to call the 2011 car a Lotus, in which case it is 100% Lotus, otherwise there may still be some remaining contribution from the days before the schism in September when Group Lotus provided some technical support, which may have been for either the 2010 or 2011 cars - probably the latter.

"I'm off to Lotus Cars in a minute to meet their R&D guys. They already test some stuff for us, but I'm keen to see everything they can do. " (Elliot Dason-Barber, Lotus Racing R&D Chief, Aug 5)

http://twitter.com/edb_lotusracing

It all seemed so simple then...

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"A question that has come up many times was why did you not find an amicable solution with Tony Fernandes? Well we tried," he [bahar] said.

"Let me just say when the counter proposals are so ridiculous and absurd, it makes no sense to continue these discussions. And if you can go with a top five team that is maybe one third of the cost that was asked by the other side, then that makes sense.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88708

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The more I read about Bahar, Lotus and Renault the more I don't like it.

There he is claiming that he wants to be involved in the day to day management and yet the same day the boss of Renault racing has made it quite clear that Lotus are just a title sponser and have no influence over any part of the team other than cosmetic design of the car.

I also find it hard to believe that Lotus Racing/Team Lotus wanted 3 times as much as Renault - that would put the figures at what? over 100million? If the prices banded about are right (circa 60million) then that would mean TF wanted nearly 200million?!?

Come on, get real.

So many lies and counter lies that I'm losing alot of faith in "Lotus Renault" before it's even got off the ground.

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Fernades denies Bahar's statements:

From AUTOSPORT:

"There was no such thing as an offer," Fernandes told AUTOSPORT about Bahar's claims. "There is an understanding that Lotus's involvement with Renault is worth £20 million, which would therefore mean that I was seeking £60 million - which is a complete fabrication.

"We never got past an initial dinner meeting. Dany Bahar and Riad Asmat met and that was it. No offers were ever exchanged.

"We were very open to equity sharing, working together and other combinations. We wanted it to work for the good of the Lotus brand - and it made sense to combine.

"I can state categorically that there is no way we were three times more expensive. Dany got it into his mind that Mike Gascoyne was old school and that it would take a long, long time for Lotus Racing to be a challenger at the top."

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I also find it hard to believe that Lotus Racing/Team Lotus wanted 3 times as much as Renault - that would put the figures at what? over 100million? If the prices banded about are right (circa 60million) then that would mean TF wanted nearly 200million?!?

Come on, get real.

Keeping in mind that the whole Lotus Racing operation ran on 50 million last year...

200 million for 50% of the shares??

Who is taking this Bahar figure still serious?????

SHOULD Lotus Renault become world champions next year, don't forget Lotus still has 7 world champion titles and Renault will add a title. Lotus is still a title sponsor at this moment, I never read in any book that Marlboro has x World Championship Titles (as they were main sponsor for McLaren or Ferrari).

However this could still change, thanks to all you British guys. Change the name without consent of other teams, is possible if you drop around 50 million at the FIA (read the regulations).

Bahar re-insisted yesterday, he wants around 50 million from the tay payers to keep production at Hethel, should we still see this as a coincidence?

Calypso Rose Rules the World!

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See it from another perspective.

What does Mr. Fernandez wants. He thinks he can buy himeself a brand and heritage.

Thereby the negotiation between Danny and Tony was to be flawed from the beginning,

both want the rule over the Lotus brand. It's not about money.

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You think TF is doing this for the money?

Everyone who was at the Lotus Festival at Snetterton, should re-think that!

TF IS passionate about Lotus and no doubt much more than Bahar will ever be, as Bahar wants to turn it into Ferrari 2 (starting with hiring half their staff) and lose the Lotus identity and spirit (no more high performance through light weight).

Edited by Exploded

Calypso Rose Rules the World!

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http://blog.thestar....nk.asp?id=32906

http://blogs.crikey....se-it-so-badly/

Looks like TF is getting to big for his boots!

He has the cheek to buy into a Britsh brand, but anyone trying to get into Asian markets gets a racist remark thrown at them!

I think he is forgetting who helped him with the setup of AirAsia , no other than the White Guys he likes to slag off.

We have two big egos trying to get in on the Lotus brand, no wonder they can't get on with each other.

Edited by bftd
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In an interview I read recently, Tony Fernandes said that he's invested £31m of his own money into the team and expects to have earned it all back within 2 years.

If he's currently earning £15m/pa out of the team in the first 2 years he stands to do very well personally out of his team being in F1.

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Tony may well be recouping his money....

I can't believe that anyone, even our 'great' British philanthropist Mr Branson, sees F1 as an opportunity to lose the maximum amount of money in the shortest space of time..... they could just go to Vegas to achieve that aim! They may be F1 fans with the resources to make large investments but I'm sure they don't regard it as a charity. Would you, in their position?

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In practice, there is!

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Is Fernandes finally coming clean on his real motives? Quotes from here: http://news.bbc.co.u...one/9296324.stm

"Fernandes said he bought the rights to use the name because he became suspicious Group Lotus wanted to terminate their agreement and he wanted to protect his investment.

He said that had he been forced to change the team's name from Lotus, he would have had to enter as a new team for the second year running and would have lost the financial benefits the team will gain from finishing 10th in 2010.

If the team finish in the top 10 again next year, Fernandes said, these would be in the region of $35m (£22.5m). "

Could it be that he actually did the deal with David Hunt while still under license with Group Lotus? If so, wouldn't that potentially hurt his legal case?

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The more I find out about Fernandes, the more it looks like it's just business and money.

He hates anyone trying to step into his shoes, just look at the comment he came out with when Tiger Airways took him on.

He is very clever getting the public on his side, by making Bahar the bad guy in the situation.

Fernandes might of put his own money in, so did a lot of Malaysian business. Do you think they would invest in 1Malaysia not to make a return?

The idea of 1Malaysia is to promote Malaysian business to global markets, It's just a marketing tool. Just like Group Lotus are entering F1 to do, market the Lotus brand.

Fernandes used Proton to his advantage by gaining the iconic Lotus name & the history associated with it, why would he want to loose it.

He also went on to use the Lotus logo in marketing 1Malaysia to companies, without Group Lotus permission while under the agreement. The agreement only allowed them to use Lotus Racing not the Lotus logo in F1. If you look at photos of 1Malaysia factory in Hingham you will see the Lotus logo being used, this is also without permission while under the agreement.

Edited by bftd
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madfry it doesn't matter really if he has good press! TF has managed to get the support of most at the beginning right! He obtained the right to use the Lotus Racing brand and did right by it! Less than a year after Proton and Group Lotus decide that his efforts are not good enough and that he's too expensive! Well Proton shows poor judgement once again while Bahar made a call that was in most opinion short sighted! As you said TF is a businessman which means that would he have been presented with a deal he would have considered it carefully. He was not presented with a deal sadly! He offered Lotus Millions in advertising pretty much free of charge. Of course he used the brand, well he was given the rights to use it wasn't he!

By the way if he doesn't have good press in Malaysia, he's still obviously popular enough to get elected by Forbes Asia as businessman of the year!

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Of course he used the brand, well he was given the rights to use it wasn't he!

Don't think so, he was give the rights to use the name Lotus, not the brand,

- A name is just the spelling of Lotus.

- A brand is the history, name, logo, colors, and the right to licence parts of it to other company's for commercial bennefits.

This is wat Proton did, allowed TF to use the Lotus name, not the brand. They can use the name not the heritage.

That's why they did not use the Lotus ACBC logo last year. Now that TF has bought the team Lotus name, again he

has to ask Groupe Lotus to use the logo, as the original Team Lotus has also "bought" the licence to use the logo.

TF has 2 things the licence to use the Lotus name for 5 years, and the right to use the team Lotus name.

So as soon as Renault can change their name into Lotus, the ACBC logo will be on the front and the UK country flag can be used.

The business case for TF is over. Only change for TF is if Group Lotus will run short of money to run in F1 before he does.

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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Don't think so, he was give the rights to use the name Lotus, not the brand,

- A name is just the spelling of Lotus.

- A brand is the history, name, logo, colors, and the right to licence parts of it to other company's for commercial bennefits.

Glad someone actually gets what the licence given to TF means.

The licence was for the Lotus Racing name only for the car and team, it did not include the use of the ACBC logo in any form, something TF seems to have forgot during his short lived licence deal.

The logo had been used without seeking permission from Group Lotus for marketing, being used on the building at Hingham during the agreement. They also used the word Lotus on branding without the permission of Group Lotus first.

Remember the Energy Boost drink LR8, this was produced without the permission of Group Lotus. Towards the end of the 2010 you would of spotted on the cars a ? instead of LR8, this is because it was taken off the market.

Team Lotus also need to licence the name from Group Lotus, for anything other than car and team. Cassic Team Lotus have a licence with Group Lotus for marketing, branding with the name, this would also apply to Team Lotus.

The below picture clearly shows the ACBC logo being used at the HQ.

post-11179-0-01255400-1292946824.jpg

Edited by bftd
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I suspect that at the start Lotus were happy for TF to use everything, then when their ambitions expanded, it came down to what was contractual entitlement

Lotus never gave TF permission to use the ACBC logo during the agreement.

The thing is do you want a ruthless Asian business man running a British Icon?

One reason Group Lotus have gone with Renault F1 is the new cars will have automotive input from Genii Capital. This makes sense as to why they would buy into a F1 team owned by Genii Capital, they will end up with a stronger business relationship. Genii Capital have a very strong automotive portfolio such as lightweight braking systems, KERS, on board software systems, lightweight materials. Proton will also be able to tap into the partnership for future products.

Colin Chapman was ruthless but he was the guy that created Lotus, built it's history at the end of the day!

Edited by bftd
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Well that ruthless Asian has no rights to a history built by the ruthless Brit does he?

He is no Colin Chapman, what does he know about building a car company from scratch into a icon, nothing, zilch. He has never worked in the automotive/motorsport industry.

Why doesn't he call it AirAsia F1, so he can build a reputation for Malaysian business in F1. Might even help Malaysia create a name for itself as a serious motorsport contender.

TF is quick enough to shoot down British business trying to make it in Asia, saying we don't have a clue about the Asian culture or business. So why does he need a British icon to promote Malaysian business if we don't have a bloody clue. My guess is because he want's to bask in the glory, history that comes with Team Lotus, maybe he should try earning it for himself with a proper Asian F1 team to be proud of.

Group Lotus are planning to make Lotus Renault GP a fully owned team of Group Lotus in the future, when this is the case they will create a new history for the Lotus brand in F1. The first win under the new Lotus team will count as number 1, not a extension of Team Lotus wins.

Group Lotus have a right to be proud of the history of Team Lotus as many innovations from the F1 team made it into the road cars creating a link between the two. This is the reason they use the motorsport history when promoting the new cars, showing how what was learnt in Motorsport also made its way into the cars helping make Lotus a leader in the automotive engineering industry.

Edited by bftd
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