Lotus 'plans to build V8 engine'

[yeller77 98]

The twinks were Ford-based, the 907 started life as a Vauxhall unit, both were taken to their limits to good effect thanks to Lotus engineers. The ZR1 motor said "Chevy" on it but is revered by Chevy and Lotus fans alike. I'm not sure most would care where the motor comes from as long as it says "Lotus" on the valve covers and does what it's supposed to do: put out stonking power reliably.

They've got £770m to spend in investment underwritten by the Malaysian Govt.

After blood, sweat, and backaches to turn red ink into a few mil in the black, I can only imagine what MJK could have done with this sort of open spigot. I wonder if sometimes MJK does as well...

I know who I'd have rather had the money handed to.

[comem47 231]

No question Lotus has the talent to do it all on their own, but should they? There are advantages to slapping your own heads or whatever onto a stock block and custom tuning it (like Lingenfelter for Corvette and AMG for Mercedes, and Shelby for Mustang, etc. ) The inventory and development costs are lower and years later when parts become more scarce at least the current owner will have a available basic block to drive around in while he shops for those hard to find add-on pieces (at least the whole engine isn't rare) Of course I suppose that the ultra rich don't care but I bet Europa owners are glad about the bottom end availability and I know DeTomaso Pantera owners must be happy about the engine choice.There is nothing to be ashamed of in the Ford GT-40 , etc. (basic block =Ford Fairlane). Likewise Lotus past association with Ford in racing. The funny downside is that association is hard to live down when people ask me what engine is in my Lotus Esprit (thinking Ford). When I tell them "Lotus" they are quite surprised, so in some respect that perception may always be there., Mr Bahar coming from Ferrari has a preconceived ethic on what makes a sports car (he said as much as "it's all about the engine" ). If you ask people what is synonymous with the Lotus name almost everyone will declare a lightweight superb handling chassis. I think it is wrong to remake Lotus in Ferrari's image and the Ford GT-40 shows you can "hot rod" a basic car engine when you have the best total package as when Ford told Enzo where to go!!!

Edited December 16, 2010 by comem47

[USAndretti42 308]

I really do despair. When it was mooted that the new Esprit would have a BMW or Lexus engine, we had a bucket load of posts on here bemoaning the fact that an Esprit without a bespoke Lotus engine would be devaluing the experience. When the Evora came out with a Toyota engine in the back many reviewers and posters complained that the powerplant let the car down compared to the rival Porsches. Now those complaints look like they are being answered we have at least 2 people in this thread saying that having a Lotus engine in the car is making them back out of wanting an Esprit and many more saying it is a bad thing and they should stick with Toyota who have pulled the rug from under the Elise by failing to develop the 1.8 litre engine to keep up with emission laws.

The only thing stopping Lotus from designing and building its own engine would be the cost. Cosworth and Lotus together can probably do it as cheaply as anyone but it's still expensive. If they came up with a modular engine that would, in various forms, suit many of the new range of cars, the cost would be spread over more sales and become easier to amortise.

To clear up a couple of things, the 907 engine was not based on a Vauxhall. McLaren's F1 used a bespoke engine from BMW and they have their own engine for the MP4-12C. At the price levels Lotus is aiming at, a Toyota engine won't cut it. A Lexus or BMW engine might while a Lotus unit definitely will.

[Stirling_Villeneuve 105]

At the price levels Lotus is aiming at, a Toyota engine won't cut it. A Lexus or BMW engine might while a Lotus unit definitely will.

Agreed a Toyota lump might raise a few eyebrows in a £100k plus Esprit... more to the point how do they figure the logic of promoting a range of Yota engined cars through an F1 partnership with Renault?

[rogerch 63]

When I look at buying a car I look beyond purchase cost, insurance cost, maintenance cost etc.

I would be interested in the weight, power out put torque, emissions, more so than the badge on the cam covers.

The internet is great and I can get parts within 7 days, but the idea that I could replace a cracked coil pack with a 10 minute drive to my local Toyota dealer is quite appealing.

Don't forget that my first Lotus, the Elan had a Ford Engine, with a Chapman cylinder head, it still had Lotus on the cam covers.

[Steve Type 085 1]

YES, Esprit should have Lotus engines and they have alway had Lotus engines, its what separates them from the kit cars and track cars.

[yeller77 98]

To clear up a couple of things, the 907 engine was not based on a Vauxhall.

True, but Vauxhall blocks were used in the development of the 907 heads due to inherent similarities. Point is, rarely does engine development occur purely de novo and optimization of relationships is simply efficient business. What engines are in the 458, the 8C, the Maserati? Are they Ferrari engines? Alfas? Masers? Maybe they should really be Fiats. It depends on how you want to look at it, especially if you drive one.

CC spent over 1/2 mil pounds to tool up for the 907. That's in 1970 money. I guess if you now have a blank check, anything's possible.

[John Bull 0]

Might this announcement be a negotiating ploy? Maybe Toyota is trying to sweeten its deal given that Lotus played its cards in Paris, and DB is fighting back.

[GavinT 109]

Performance and reliability are the key to this. Without either it will kill the new Esprit. All the T's and the I's must be crossed and dotted before the power plant reaches the showroom floor. At the price band the Esprit will be sold in, lack of performance and reliability issues simply will not be tolerated. With that said, an Esprit powered by a Lotus designed and built unit verses a Jap out the box tweaked one? - I'll take the Lotus one please and if it can be ordered with bells on, I'll take them too.

[Guest surferphil]

True, but Vauxhall blocks were used in the development of the 907 heads due to inherent similarities. Point is, rarely does engine development occur purely de novo and optimization of relationships is simply efficient business. What engines are in the 458, the 8C, the Maserati? Are they Ferrari engines? Alfas? Masers? Maybe they should really be Fiats. It depends on how you want to look at it, especially if you drive one.

CC spent over 1/2 mil pounds to tool up for the 907. That's in 1970 money. I guess if you now have a blank check, anything's possible.

The GM Block was used to speed up the development of the moving parts, while the Lotus Block was being developed in parallel.

Ferrari have Ferrari engines and so do the Maseratis. They got it the right way round, premium gengine, so no question about the value of the brands there.

Lotus always lacked 1 thing: Investment, now they have it, they should go for it! Why rely on Toyota?

The problem was never building an engine, it was always the Gearbox that let it down.

I'd be surprised if they developed their own gearbox, that is the difficult bit in the car. Jag use ZF and they are excellent! The 12MY Diesel has the new ZF 8speed auto.

As a further thought, Lotus have the brand power to produce the Elise with a Toyot engine in it while selling a Supercar with a premium Lotus V8 in it. I think this is where Danny is wrong and he can't see it.

It's a big shame as they have a market to themselves at the moment, with the Elise range and are about to dump it. Why? Because they can.

Watch the now discontinued Elise, hold it's value!

[yeller77 98]

The GM Block was used to speed up the development of the moving parts, while the Lotus Block was being developed in parallel.

Ferrari have Ferrari engines and so do the Maseratis. They got it the right way round, premium gengine, so no question about the value of the brands there.

Doesn't disprove my point, economies of scale. Fiat use Ferrari engines in various forms and tunes across their high end marques and they don't all say Ferrari on their intakes. If Lotus wants to build their own engine, great. Rarely does a bespoke engine pay off over a few thousand cars with a commitment to supply parts for at least 10 years (Fed regs) and hit the moving emissions targets. How many Esprits do they want/expect to sell? It seems better business to port out your engine to other platforms/marques (Lotus to Lexus?) or adapt another for your own purpose. Silly me, I'm still trying to save Lotus money.

[Guest surferphil]

Doesn't disprove my point, economies of scale. Fiat use Ferrari engines in various forms and tunes across their high end marques and they don't all say Ferrari on their intakes. If Lotus wants to build their own engine, great. Rarely does a bespoke engine pay off over a few thousand cars with a commitment to supply parts for at least 10 years (Fed regs) and hit the moving emissions targets. How many Esprits do they want/expect to sell? It seems better business to port out your engine to other platforms/marques (Lotus to Lexus?) or adapt another for your own purpose. Silly me, I'm still trying to save Lotus money.

Probably doesn't disprove anything, I just wanted to join in with the topical dscussion.

They have £770,000,000 to get through, and they are not going to be able to do that, if you keep saving them money!

[WayneB 2]

Lotus designing and manufacturing its own engine for the new Esprit is an nice idea, except it may delay the models introduction past 2012, futher delaying cash flow from that model..

Lotus have already done quite a bit of secret engine development for Toyota on various engines , and they did come up with a neat F1 engine for Toyota a while ago(that was regrettably never used).

I would have had no problem with Lotus using a Toyota/Lexus 5.0 V8 in the new Esprit, as long as they made it attractive to look at with nice cast alloy rocker covers and inlet tracts, I am not all that taken with plastic cover as used on the Evora.

[Bibs 11,167]

You can have a carbon one for £1,500!

[plumdeplakmuis 35]

Doesn't disprove my point, economies of scale. Fiat use Ferrari engines in various forms and tunes across their high end marques and they don't all say Ferrari on their intakes. If Lotus wants to build their own engine, great. Rarely does a bespoke engine pay off over a few thousand cars with a commitment to supply parts for at least 10 years (Fed regs) and hit the moving emissions targets. How many Esprits do they want/expect to sell? It seems better business to port out your engine to other platforms/marques (Lotus to Lexus?) or adapt another for your own purpose. Silly me, I'm still trying to save Lotus money.

Like Lamborghini, better to increase production volumes by using your Lambo engine in large Audi's (A8, R8), than using a large Audi engine in your Lambo.

Lotus might sell their new Esprit engine to Renault, Toyota, etc..

Also as the engine will be used throughout the complete model range, there will be some economy of scale.

My prefference, a 3.5 V6, which can be used in any variations between 300hp transversal non turbo in the new Elan, to enlarged bore 600hp 4.0 LP twin turbo in the Esprit, Elite and Eterne.

[DanR 69]

Now that Toyota has Subaru I'd like to see the flat sixes being used. Compact, low CoG, light , etc. And they can sound so good. Knock Porsche out of its niche too.

[Iconic Ride 267]

There is no way that the new Esprit, selling at well north of $100,000 USD, will be built with anything less than a V8. It's not about technological "common sense" so much as "perception, perception, perception."

If your price point is going up against the likes of Ferrari, etc., then you'd better make sure the lump you install is perceived as being in the same league. Hell, a V10 would be even better!

Lotus bespoke V10 vs Lexus V10? Probably an evenly split audience.

In my bones I would prefer the Lotus powerplant, thereby maintaining the Esprit's established heritage. With the bucks [apparently] available, my guess is that Lotus Engineering could come up with one heck of a product. Go for it!

[WayneB 2]

I would have thought that the source of the Transaxle to be used in the New Esprit would have caused more concern than the engine as traditionally they have been thought of as the Esprits "weak link"

Graziano may be the current choice, I dont think Lotus will try to make their own (unless the CEO reads this post)

[simonb 12]

There is no way that the new Esprit, selling at well north of $100,000 USD, will be built with anything less than a V8. It's not about technological "common sense" so much as "perception, perception, perception."

If your price point is going up against the likes of Ferrari, etc., then you'd better make sure the lump you install is perceived as being in the same league. Hell, a V10 would be even better!

Lotus bespoke V10 vs Lexus V10? Probably an evenly split audience.

In my bones I would prefer the Lotus powerplant, thereby maintaining the Esprit's established heritage. With the bucks [apparently] available, my guess is that Lotus Engineering could come up with one heck of a product. Go for it!

But it could be that the market will be in the other direction For 2013 Formula one will have a 4 cylinder 1.6-liter Turbocharged units with a rev limit of 12,000 rpm and linked to hybrid kinetic energy recovery systems. The supercar manufacturers have been comfortable at V8 & V10 "formula one like" configurations. 4 pot turbo is Lotus territory. The problem IMHO is not the number of cylinders, it is the number of ponies - get BHP to Ferrari / Lamborghini levels and doing it with the same configuration as F1 and I dont think the market will punish them. Building a new v8 with a 5 / 10 year write off period could hurt

[plumdeplakmuis 35]

There is no way that the new Esprit, selling at well north of $100,000 USD, will be built with anything less than a V8. It's not about technological "common sense" so much as "perception, perception, perception."

Porsche turbo - Flat 6 twin turbo

Nissan GTR - V6 twin turbo (Cosworth technology)

Lotus 98T - V6 twin turbo

Lotus Esprit Sport 300 - L4 turbo

Fisker Karma - L4 turbo

Lancer EVO X - L4 turbo

Brabham BT55 BMW - L4 turbo

All F1 cars from 2013 on

Anything with more than 8 cylinders or above 4000cc just feels old fashioned nowadays,

I like the idea of a Subaru flat six based engine.

[Guest surferphil]

These days it's not what you put in the car, it's how well it's marketed that makes the sales figures.

You can't market an under powered super car, it just becomes a sports car, but you can market efficiency, the trouble is the old school is still out there with the opinion that a V8 is the best thing and that it's all about torque.

Some clever marketing could re educate these foolish predudices.

One of the few good things to come out of top gear, is the perception that if you want performance comparrisons, then it has to be done on track, not on paper.

[Iconic Ride 267]

Simon, Garp, and Phil all make strong cases for a "less than 8 cylinder" powerplant, but in order for the new Esprit to be profitable Lotus has to sell (based on historical figures) a significant number (possibly as high as 50%) of them in the U.S.. where (as Phil puts it) "foolish prejudices" are difficult to overcome. As much as I hate to admit it, F1 is not (yet) heavily followed in the States. Quite the contrary in some cases. Not a week goes by that I don't see a "letter to the editor" in our local rag castigating the state of Texas for approving 250 million dollars in financial assistance to the new Austin venue's startup costs, despite the fact that it is all expected to be paid back from gate receipts in the long run. There is great irony here, in that (as stated in previous posts) F1 is set to morph into "green" mode, via the smaller displacement engines in the very near future. The "tree hugger" in me says this is a good thing, and I commend FIA for this evolution towards greater fuel economy. Nonetheless, for those with the wherewithall to purchase true supercars, smaller, more efficient powerplants are not always uppermost in their minds. Foolish indeed, but a reality that will likely affect the marketing of the car.

[simonb 12]

Although in America, displacement and number of cylinders does not necessarily indicate power output.

Would agree that (right now) V8 or V10 is the obvious way to go, it might not be the case in 3 years time (or 6 years time when the engine is still not paid off). Whatever the format, it needs to develop the 400+ bhp people will expect in this sort of car

[alan 37]

http://sniffpetrol.com/2010/12/17/lotus-has-more-shitty-ideas-to-come/

[Stefan Ertler 1]

When I saw the new Esprit, I knew I'd be one of the first to order one. And with the perspective, it will come with a Lotus own power plant I am even more convinced about my decision.

Lotus is capable of designing reliable engines. As said in one post before, they just never had the funds to do it properly.

In terms of gear box I hope Lotus enters a partnership with ZF as they are the most innovative people on the market for this.

Don't care too much for the no of cylinders or displacement. Guess this is just important for all the US stick-in-the-mud bigger is better minds.

I am sure Danny Bahar and his new team of engineers will produce a result which is future geared, innovative that we all will appreciate

Staying curious

Stefan