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Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan - Page 14 - Motorsport & Trackdays - The Lotus Forums Jump to content


Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan


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I was in the vicinity of the High Court today so I went and heard the hand down being given in Court 61 just after 2pm.

In his summing up Justice Smith said something along the lines of "I can't help feeling that both parties would be better competing against each other on the racetrack....."

Looks like that's what we're going to get.

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If you do a google news search for Lotus stories during the last 24 hours its quite comical

Team Lotus wins right to keep racing name in F1

Group Lotus Wins F1 Name Battle Against Team Lotus

Lotus battle a "score draw"

LOTUS WINS IN LOTUS V LOTUS F1 CASE. AS DOES LOTUS

F1 - Renault team in financial trouble - report

13 Stories say Team Lotus won the case

4 stories say Group Lotus won

25 stories either say its a draw or they have lost interest / lost the will to live / dont care any more

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this makes me sick. why can't they just get along and work together? at the end of this it should be about promoting and saving one of the last british legends. the car and the name !!! as an english man i am appalled that it has all come to the red little monster "CASH"

They are only interested in profit, that is what killed Lotus in the first place. work together for the love of the name not think the name will work for you.

That's my view too. But the result is pretty fair as far as I can see.

"Why can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson :thumbsup:

"All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad."

~ Jeremy Clarkson (about the Lotus Esprit)

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and then there is this story

gotta be in F1

Question now is will Danny boy divert even more cash away from road cars to float his F1 ego and mimic the Type79 with a Lotus-Cosworth team with black & gold livery ???

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"Curiouser and curiouser."

L. Carroll

And it's down the rabbit hole we go again. Other than the damage award, has anything really changed? A few barristers gain another villa or two, and the F1 fan base continues to muddle along in fractious confusion. The marque's name is being drawn and quartered anew, and no one knows for certain where this saga is ultimately headed. Here we have two sets of well intentioned blokes building competing chassis a stone's throw from one another, having their hearts ripped out over a naming dispute. They have become pawns, puppets really, in a legal chess match that they did not sign on for. Decals do not a race car make, only the blood sweat and tears of an honest day's work in the shop or on the track. The spanner serfs toil to please the rapidly expanding egos of their masters, all the while drifting in a limbo of uncertainty, as the seemingly endless gamesmanship of team principals drags them down unwillingly into the depths of despondence. How did it come to this? What miracle will it take to bring remedy to folly?

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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It's as if the judge is punishing both sides by making things worse than they ever were concerning the determination of who has the F1 chassis rights.

That will teach you both!!! :wallbash:

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and then there is this story

gotta be in F1

Question now is will Danny boy divert even more cash away from road cars to float his F1 ego and mimic the Type79 with a Lotus-Cosworth team with black & gold livery ???

Formula one teams living hand to mouth is not new news. Real shame for Renault though, as with Kubica they could have been second to Red Bull IMHO. Would have thought that the Russian money could follow Petrov, as he is at least an equal to Heidfeld at the moment, perhaps the British Renaults painted as Lotus' are not Russian enough

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That's my view too. But the result is pretty fair as far as I can see.

"Why can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson :thumbsup:

Exactly but it's about egos not Lotus heritage. For me though the green and yellow cars have got it right, they look the part, they talk the talk and the Caterham buy out was spot on. I just can't see the point of Danny throwing millions at Renault, even less now Team Lotus remain in the game( sorry but even the paint job looks $***). Add to that the new Elan's already in the bin and you wonder what's next...

Roll on Monaco! :thumbsup:

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

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Thanks Joaovc,

Looks like both Lost,

Next year we see a Team Lotus and a Lotus on the grid, Or will it be a Lotus and a Caterham?

But how could the judge grant F1Malaysia the rights to use the Lotus roundel and the rights to sell merchandise? That can't be right.

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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I'm not surprised Group are going to appeal the use of the name TL, they don't want their name to be asscociated with a load of backmarkers..

That comment may come back to bite you, I can't see Proton share holders reacting well to shelling out further funds to keep Renault's head above water, with their current decent on the grid and Team Lotus's climb ? :gathering:

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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Looks like both Lost,

Next year we see a Team Lotus and a Lotus on the grid, Or will it be a Lotus and a Caterham?

But how could the judge grant F1Malaysia the rights to use the Lotus roundel and the rights to sell merchandise? That can't be right.

There will be only one team that is running a Lotus chassis, and that is Team Lotus.

He granted Team Lotus permission to use the Team Lotus roundel because it is completely different to the Lotus one. GL own the rights to the "Lotus" roundel only.

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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I'm not sure, but after reading a fair bit of the court transcript (I was bored) Team Lotus will need to call their chassis a Team Lotus chassis. They can not use the word Lotus on it's own. Point 373 even seemed to suggest that the agreement could possibly even preclude 1MRT from calling themselves Team Lotus, but then he allows it which puzzled me a bit.

Antony, to say the roundels are completely different is a bit of an exaggeration. The only difference is the word Team in front of Lotus. I know 3 year olds that could design completely different roundels, The Team Lotus one ain't it.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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They cannot use Lotus on its own in the team name, but because they are the only ever team to race in F1 as Lotus, the Lotus chassis remains their's. The fact that the Team Lotus Roundel has "Team" on is the reason that they can keep it. It was registered as a Trademark and was owned by Team Lotus, not Lotus Cars (although it was designed by them).

61

The Roundels were dealt with in the 1985 Agreement. Under clause 6.2 GL acknowledged TLL's right to continue to use the names "Team Lotus" and "Club Team Lotus" in relation to its business. I will deal with this in more detail when I analyse the 1985 Agreement. It also granted TLIL the right to use the ACBC monogram with or without the words "Team Lotus". Examples were provided in the 6th Schedule. One has the Roundel with the interlocking letters and the other has the Roundel with interlocking letters and Team Lotus. Reciprocally TLIL acknowledged the right of GL to continue to use the names Group Lotus and Lotus and the Lotus logo as set out in the 7th Schedule. That shows the Roundel with the addition of the word Lotus. Although there were provisions dealing with the cancellation of trade mark registrations in the name of GL and an agreement to replacement with registrations in the name of TLIL that does not appear to have applied to the Roundel.

62

On 9th April 2002 the Second Defendant ("TLVL") applied to register a trade mark under the name Team Lotus and was granted that registration on 20th May 2005. It also in 2010 applied to register the mark in respect of the Lotus Roundel incorporating the words Team Lotus. Earlier it had filed registrations on 15th March 1988 to register an identical Roundel incorporating the words Team Lotus. That was registered (No. 1338435).

63

Thus at the commencement of the proceedings GL has a Roundel registered under the name Lotus as a trade mark and the Second Defendant had a Roundel incorporating the words Team Lotus registered as a trade mark. I have appended copies (black and white and colour) of the TLL Roundel and the GL Roundel as set out in Schedules 6 and 7 to the 1985 Agreement to this judgment

Edited by Antony Peacock

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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From what I've read the goodwill associated with Lotus' participation in F1 is shared, and the chassis name point hasn't been addressed (unless someone can point me towards something explicit in the decision that I've missed). So unless there is something in the FOM/FIA rule book that changes things it would seem that Team Lotus need to change their chassis name to Team Lotus and Group Lotus have the right to name another chassis as a Lotus.

I suspect that perhaps Justice Smith was not aware of the difference between team names and chassis names within Formula 1, and therefore the importance of this to the outcome. Until a definitive and independent legal position is provided (regarding the chassis naming point) I doubt any of us can really figure out the full implications.

I have a lot of time for both sides and yet both have annoyed me with their very flimsy media spinning. I hope we see a Lotus squad and a Team Lotus squad for the next few seasons and then we can decide over the long term who is the best custodian of the brand in F1 (and perhaps in other areas beyond...), instead of picking sides based on what one or other sides media machine has stated in biased press releases, as thats just tedious.

Edited by Gus82
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A pub on the outskirts of Stornoway...redux:

Bernie: Blimey, Peter! That was a brilliant result. Both sides "win," both sides "lose." Can't get any more ambiguous than that. Your talent for nubulousity is without peer.

Justice Smith: Why thank you, Bernie. I'm quite confident that we can keep this legal tat going indefinitely.

Tony: And might I add that our collective publicity profiles have likely increased by another order of magnitude. The F1 internet blogosphere has gone absolutely exponential. Well done, Peter.

Dany: Yes, this scheme has progressed way beyond even our wildest expectations. At this rate we'll have every race fan seeing Lotus roundels in their sleep! Long live the High Court!

Tony: Calm down, Fezza Boy. We still have lots of work to do. That story about Renault being in dire need of cash needs to percolate a bit more before we announce the buyout. We move too soon, and even that bloke in Coffs Harbour will have fingered us before it's done.

Dany: I get the point, jetbreath. But we can't wait forever. Now that I've binned the Elan program, we've got the quid to pull this off. You still on board with this, Bernie?

Bernie: From day one, Dany. You and Tony have put F1 on the radar like an A380. I'm thinking about having you run as Team Lotusham Cosnault in the Austin debut. Catchy, huh?

Dany: Whatever you say, Bernie. I am here to serve. And to make a buck or two, of course.

Justice Smith: We still need to work out the details of Tony's damages payment. Will one million sterling be sufficient, Dany? Anything less, and Joe Saward will have my head on a platter.

Dany: Sounds good to me. Can I keep the interest on it until we funnel it back to Tony?

Bernie: I believe we agreed to donate that to the FIA Home For Wayward Grid Girls, Dany.

Dany: So sorry, I forgot.

Justice Smith: Guys, I gotta' run. I have an interview tomorrow with a BBC Sports reporter. They're starting to get a little suspicious about this whole affair, but I think I can hold them off with some more legal BS. Geeze they're naive at times.

Bernie: Meeting adjourned, gents. I need to see if Kubica is ready to make his "miraculous recovery" this week. He's been getting a bit antsy lately.

The four leave the pub separately without fanfare.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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John, :unworthy::unworthy::cheers:

The best part of this whole tedious thread by far. Which pub was it in Stornoway? (Well obviously a true story so pub really exists)

Maybe the infamous one that had a blackboard outside it last year reading something like `Free man Creche. Ladies drop your troublesome whinging man off while you go shopping in peace. We will look after him until you come abck to collect him and keep him entertained` etc. etc.. You get the drift.

A LEGS man and proud to declare it! Lotus Enthusiasts Group Scotland

Autocar's Best UK Drivers Car 2009. Car's Performance Car of the Year 2009; Evo's Car of the Year 2009. Top Gear Sports Car of the Year 2009

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Very interesting article indeed!! Time for Dany boy to have another celebrity smoke and mirrors party to brush it all off !!! :devil:

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Very interesting article indeed!! Time for Dany boy to have another celebrity smoke and mirrors party to brush it all off !!! :devil:

Too right it's interesting! As for the party do we get a group invite? :cheers::band::wine::animier:

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

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Too right it's interesting! As for the party do we get a group invite? :cheers::band::wine::animier:

:ermm: Rather better get used to "I'm terribly sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't find your name on the guest list. Kindly move your car..."

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:ermm: Rather better get used to "I'm terribly sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't find your name on the guest list. Kindly move your car..."

Yes, Dany doesn't like the current and past Lotus car owners riff-raff. You're invited to the party at $300K and above spending money or if you're on the arm of a celebrity who has friends with that kind of money. Rumor has it though, that down the road at Caterham it's open to all car aficionados :fun:

Edited by comem47
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:ermm: Rather better get used to "I'm terribly sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't find your name on the guest list. Kindly move your car..."

"I'm terribly sorry, sir "mr Bahar", I'm afraid I don't find your name on the guest list. Kindly surrender your car keys.."

Edited by Roger the Dodger

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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There is a world of difference between Lotus in the 1970s selling the rights for an obsolete model to a loyal and trusted dealer; to a motor manufacturer selling a current brand to a disliked rival. Since when was Group Lotus cash strapped (well OK, since about 1957) but they claim to have their "new dawn" funding in place

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I switched off thinking that article had any credibility as soon as it mentioned flogging the Elise manfacturing rights to Caterham. What complete tosh.

As for Bahar not liking previous owners, well he's hosted at least three (if not more) open days for various club reps, owners and enthusiasts already this year. Last week was the turn of some of our USA friends. He's quite happy to field informal Q+A sessions from the attendees and I've witnessed some awkward questions being answered without any swerving or avoidance.

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