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Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan


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Range Rovers may be heavy, but not the heaviest in their class. The Evora isn't exactly a featherweight though is it? The final V8 Esprits were lardy old busses too coming in at almost 1400kgs.

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Think carefully what you are saying because you have just been argueing that Team Lotus don't make a Lotus car and more of that is designed built and developed in Norfolk and the UK than all of the "New range" put together.

Turnips are produced in Norfolk. Does that mean they're a Lotus vegetable or does it mean they just have similar postcodes.

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Why mess with aluminium when carbon fibre is lighter and is viewed as more high end / high tech? Gone are the days when it could only be used on the most expensive hypercars. The Alfa 4c will be carbon fibre yet only cost around £40k.

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Turnips are produced in Norfolk. Does that mean they're a Lotus vegetable or does it mean they just have similar postcodes.

A turnip is not a creation from man kind, nor is it a master piece. You just put seed into the ground give it water and the turnip will grow. If you put an Esprit in the ground on the other hand… :-D

What Kimbers wants to say (I think) is that there is always influence from the environment where you live. An Italian creates cars different to a Brit. Fact is that the Team Lotus car is not the fastest at all, it’s a good attempt and way better compared to last year. But at least they were man enough to try and build a good car. There is a good workforce from local people working there. I agree that a true British sports car is built in the UK with preferably UK made pieces. Who ever designed it is less important, as long as it has the British influences and looks like it’s a car that looks what Lotus stands for. If you don’t find any clues from the Lotus past, then that is sad.

The whole time we are discussing about the built quality, and where Bahar says that Colin Chapman never wrote anything about maximum weights of cars etc, I will add that Colin Chapman never wrote anything about some stupid idiotic build quality as long as the car was beautiful, (good handling,) light and fast. THAT is what made Lotus special in all those years, that is what made it stand out of the rest. And just that is what the senior management is forgetting all about, I feel.

Making a car with a high capacity engine, making it out of aluminum, giving it more weight for what reason what so ever, just like all the other car manufacturers do, is being like the rest and not thinking outside the box.

The Elise would never have sold if it was made with a conventional steels chassis and heavy alu bodyparts. It’s good looks + light weight though stiff chassis + GRP clams + light engine + Lotus ride and handling that was something nobody had and that mad it sell . It was the same with the Esprit, the Elan, …

And I don’t see any of that innovation on the new models, instead they are claiming to go and build what are “conventional” cars these days. That is what worries me most.

Well excuse me now, I’m going to drive my fat 80’s Esprit home…

Edited by Exploded

Calypso Rose Rules the World!

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I think it is important to look at the volumes at which you write off a metal press and at which you write off a GRP mound (even the fancy injection moulds). I suspect there is a factor of 100 or 1000 between total production of a lotus variant and the expected pressings for a motor wing.

Google Superforming and Hydroforming, which are the processes I know Wolf Zimmerman has been talking about using going forward. If talking about traditional metal pressing, then you absolutely have a point, but AFIK none of the lov-volume car manufacturers use this today.

Why mess with aluminium when carbon fibre is lighter and is viewed as more high end / high tech? Gone are the days when it could only be used on the most expensive hypercars. The Alfa 4c will be carbon fibre yet only cost around £40k.

Well, the cheapes car currently on sale with a carbon chassis is the X-BOW, which costs from about £50k-£80k, so I wouldn't say those days are quite over yet. Keep in mind that the carbon chassis is by far the most costly bit to make on that car as well, simply because carbon firbre still has an awfully high material cost and is very labour intensive to work with.

I know there has been lots of talk of the 4C actually using the X-BOW chassis (which I think is originally Dallara designed/built), but as this has no door openings I think it at least it will have to be a revorked version of it. Now this means that Alfa in effect will have to use a bespoke chassis, and will save little in devlopment cost, and if the 4C eventually turns up with a proper carbon firbe chassis and a price of £40k, I can only see two possible ways for this to happen:

1: Dallara/KTM/Alfa/some other partner of them has come up with an entierly new type of carbon fibre with a much lower material cost and/or automated process to produce carbon firbre parts.

2: Alfa is selling the 4C as a loss-leader marketing excercise.

Personlly I hope for number 1, but am honestly not holding my breath for it..

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Renault couldn't make the Team pay so sold it as a financial burden. Do you think Genii would be selling it if it was profitable??

Honda couldn't make it work, Spyker couldn't, BMW, Jaguar, Toyota (with their huge spending power) etc etc etc.

What makes you think that Lotus can?? I'm sorry but I just can't see it being anything but bragging rights and a burden on GL.

I don't think Lotus is in F1 for the long run, they are only in there to counter F1Malaysia. (And maybe a bit for exposure)

As soon as F1Malaysia will give up it's logo, Lotus can get out of it again and focus on making cars and money.

Although Lotus would like to be in F1, they know they can't afford a team of their own. Certanly not before they have

a Ferrari like status. Only now Lotus can't afford not to be in F1 and let F1Malaysia get away with their brand.

Edited by plumdeplakmuis

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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Wasnt the last job Colin Chapman had before starting Lotus with British Aluminium?

Wasnt the first Lotus cars built bodied in Aluminium by Williams and Prichard?

Seems the total construction technique Lotus are now going for is the same that they came up with for Aston-Martin with on the Vanquish, the bonded Aluminium monocoque type designed chassis, using superformed , hand finished aluminium panels (excepting the fascias, and front wings which are made of semi rigid deformable plastic)

As cost is now not an object, it will produce a body that has more controlable panel gaps and surfaces that are truer , more stable and less wavy(which is why Aston-Martin currently uses that system)

It will be heavier than an composite paneled Evora type shell though (not all that much)

Problem is that Lotus are currently heavily promoting the brand via F1 and of course in F1 lightness is everything so I would think as price is now not an issue, a carbon fibre chassis and body would be the way to go (as the new McLaren demonstrates)

Seems to me that Lotus will now be having an Aston-Martin type vehicle built (at the same Magna plant that AM use in Austria),

One of my favourite sports cars the Honda NSX used an all aluminium method of monocoque construction and it worked very well as I remember.

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Edited by billy fish
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They don't make doorhandles or headlights or even grow their own cows to supply the leather either. What's your point?

Dany: Donato, did you read that post on TLF's by that GKP dude? Fricking marketing genius that man. Why the hell didn't we come up with that? Pure genius I tell you! Tell Wolf to scrap the new engine project immediately. I want his entire department working overtime on this cow business. "Bovine Concepts" we're going to call it. And get hold of that ad agency we used for the "faceless people" Evora prelaunch campaign. Tell 'em we're going to need size extra-large linens to drape the cows with.

Donato: I'm on it, boss. What say we bring back Nick Fulcher out of retirement and put him back on the payroll? I can see it now, Nick lining up that Texas size branding iron with the CABC roundel sizzling against that pristine rawhide, ready for the harvesting, a future Esprit headrest in the making. And we can use the hooves as stickshift knobs for the western U.S. market. Yeehaaa, ya'll!

Dany: Listen, I've gotta' call BA to confirm my LA flight this afternoon. Have Sylvia in the front office tell the Baldwin brothers to meet me at the airport, and make sure they leave their fecking Lambos in the garage this time damn it. Those tabloid paparazzi had a field day with that cockup last visit. Kept asking if it was the New Esprit, and what was under the bonnet. Thought it was front engined, the fools. Nosey bastards. New Esprit? What were they thinking? Don't they know our timeline? Do we even know it? God, it's lonely at the top.

Donato: One other thing, mate, whose in charge of the stables? I mean, there's going to be a lot of, erm..., "byproducts" to deal with here. If Renault bails from the F1 scene, I was thinking we might offer their staff some form of employment. You know, just to get them by until things improve, say in 2018 or so.

Dany: Sure, why not? It's the right thing to do, and once we buy out the franchise we'll have a built in bullshit crew at the ready for futher marketing ploys. Get it? Get it? Am I one funny guy or what?

Donato: Whatever you say, boss. I'm beginning to see why Fezza let you go. Ooops! Pretend you didn't hear that. Just slipped out. I'm headed over to DEFRA to see about the numbers on that Southhampton herd.

Dany: Excellent choice, my man. Listen, seems a shame to waste all that meat. Tell the wranglers to inform the slaughterhouse that I want all the prime cuts to be sent over to the Exos guys catering division. Keep them Middle East pashas happy. And have them send the leavings to Tony's boys over in Hingham. And make sure it's sent over as hamburger meat. They'll get the pun I'm sure.

Donato: Geeze, that's brutal, boss. Must be the Turk in you coming out again. I'm on it. See you when you return.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Wow I've been away from my keyboard for a day of traveling from Melaka to Hanoi and look at you guys going at it!

Ok I'll add my two cents. Nobody and I mean nobody buys a car because of F1 results, even supercars! Ferrari are purchased by people who have the money and want something red to match their Italian loafers and suits! Toyota kept on selling millions of cars while the F1 car never scored a victory! Renault decided to back down on their commitment cause they could not see correlation between their costly F1 effort and their sales even in Latin America which is a primary market for them!

We know that Group Lotus would have rebranded Renault entirely if it had been possible! It turned out that it is not possible and at this pace it will never be! Renaults will never be Lotuses - RBR, Williams and Team will make sure of it! Worse for Genii, Renault is not happy at the fact that the team still bears the Renault name! Renault 'gave away' the team with some conditions and it happens that all conditions haven't been met yet! The risk for Genii is to Lose the Renault engine by 2013 or worse as early as next year according to the french media!

Podiums on sunday do not seem to mean sponsors on monday! Actually if your business plan is solid you're much better being at the back of the pack! Look at Sauber! Look at Team! F1 is good for the one winning team! But other Teams can still manage to raise sponsorship if their M.O is good! Williams hasn't one a single GP in a while and even if their are struggling both on track and financially the team is still judged highly by the F1 Circus!

When I say Team 1 - Group 0 my point is logical! By Group I mean Group Lotus+Genii Renault. By the way the GE deal would be a 3 year deal worth $30M a year according to Joe Saward who has it almost always right with Team Lotus! Yes, $30M that deal is really a mega deal for a team like Team Lotus! Hell $30M a year is mega for any team these days!

Yes! Team is still in the back of the pack! However In my opinion with a kers on the car and they'd be fighting toe to toe with Williams, Force India, STR, Sauber! They have a plan in place! they are solid with very solid funding! They are able to generate a lot more buzz than LRGP right now! They have 3 more years before people start getting all worked up! DELL and GE no what they're getting into just like CNN did!

I understand Bibs point of view, technically speaking, Group made the right choice to buy into an established race and championship winning team! Problem is it's not really what people see as the Lotus way! The Lotus way incarnated by CABC would be start from scratch and go kick ass thanks to you're genius engineer who is thinking forward! Problem is, it's almost impossible to get to F1 and win straight away these days! The testing ban is not helping the young teams and it's not helping Ferrari (I'm ok with that)!

My point of view hasn't changed! From the moment the shareholders brought the name back to F1 they made their bed! And a small volume manufacturer is not supposed to sponsor a mass market manufacturer, it's ridiculous especially when this team is already sponsored by another car manufacturer.

Talking about the aluminium versus carbon affair! VVA was always supposed to move forward! Wasn't the APX concept all aluminium!? Should Lotus Cars go carbon? Maybe, maybe not, I'd rather see them innovate again with hemp or high strengh bamboo fiber! The only thing I care about is that they bring the cars to market in due time and not 3 years late! Esprit is now programmed for 2014 it was supposed to be released in 2012!

Edited by NedaSay
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Seems to me that Lotus will now be having an Aston-Martin type vehicle built (at the same Magna plant that AM use in Austria),

Possibly, but keep in mind that from what I've understood about the Lotus takeover of Holden Aluminium Worchester (which was originally Hydro Aluminium Worchester), it is currently Lotus who also builds the AM chassis.

I suspect that what we're going to see in the new cars is a similar concept, but more advanced and lower weight, than the AM chassis.

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Other news from the french front that I follow closely from the distance: in order to get a Grand Prix the french government gave mandate to LRGP director Eric Bouiller to come with a complete plan! Part of the plan is to get a french driver back in the circus, be it Grosjean, Vernay or Bianchi as early as next year! At the same time the French Federation FFSA is willing to talk with the Belgian RAC about alternance between a french track and Spa! Off course Bernie came out with his love for HTTT Paul Ricard, which is owned by is wife! While french regional government of Nièvre keeps pointing out that Magny Cours is still up to F1 standard!

Actually, on that one HTTT is better placed cause the new slot for the race would be the end of summer! Placing the French GP the week before the Italian GP! You'll all recognize that the french riviera is more inviting than the french contryside! With a huge number of french and european touristS in the area in august that should be a no brainer! The problems of the HTTT are that it will need a new 50,000 grandstand which could be easily erected and that the road infrastructure leading to the track is still not up to F1 spec!

Another part of the plan would be to have a french team involved again, but not a manufacturer! Therefore some would be willing to help Nicolas Todt and Frederic Vasseur, owners of ART GP aka Lotus ART, to team ownership! Renault would not oppose the idea. Some people at Genii wouldn't either since Lotus may not be able to maintain their $18M for the anticipated 7 years of the deal! I know that part sounds ludicrous! Renault failed to get french backing. ART GP and Nicolas Todt would be more suitable it appears to attract french blue chip companies! I guess being the son of the well connected FIA supremo helps a bit with that!

Other rumors that really are not really rumors! Expect RenaultSport F1 to take a break if the new engine regulation does not come into effect in 2013! Ferrari and Mercedes want to postpone, Cosworth and Renault want it now! That would leave Lotus and Genii in deep trouble! Can you imagine a team called Lotus Renault GP running with a Cosworth, a Mercedes or a Ferrari engine! At best a Pure engine, manufactured by Mécachrome, would be acceptable. But then again the name of the team would be totally misleading come to think of it, it already is!

What does that all mean to LRGP! It's all very simple some people don't see this alliance lasting much longer! Some people don't see Dany Bahar at the helm of Lotus much longer either! He build a very solid management team but he is failing to bring the cars to market! It appears that the Renault engine deal is off the table! Toyota may or may not provide engines either in the future if Lotus plans to build their own engine fail! Group Lotus comm has been dismal lately announcing their intention to get a new partner then back pedalling to keep Proton happy... You know the story!

Edited by NedaSay
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Hmm

All this talk of Team Lotus being a British team with cars built in Britain. Well LRGP are also built in Britain. When I was there a few weeks ago there were plenty of LOtus Evora's cluttering the place. There is plenty of transfer between there and Hethel.

Guess which one will have the British National Anthem played should they win a Grand Prix? Yep it isn't Team Lotus!

Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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The only thing I care about is that they bring the cars to market in due time and not 3 years late! Esprit is now programmed for 2014 it was supposed to be released in 2012!

Or perhaps along with the rest of your conjecture, you're not entirely accurate.

Autocar 15 June 2011, page 16:

He also revealed that the rolling chassis was now complete and fully running prototypes would be ready by November.

IMG_0117.jpg

I occasionally wonder if some on here will only ever be happy if Bahar fails and the company goes completely tits up, just so they can say "told you so" on the internet.

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He also revealed that the rolling chassis was now complete and fully running prototypes would be ready by November.

I occasionally wonder if some on here will only ever be happy if Bahar fails and the company goes completely tits up, just so they can say "told you so" on the internet.

I sincerely hope that YOU can tell me: See I told you so, as that would mean Bahar and Lotus are doing great!

GKP, let's face it, how can you take a man serious if he tells they are soon proto testing while 5 months ago, they still had to decide if they were going to build their own engine?? Or are they going to develop a car based on another engine and gearbox... that seems madness to me, or hey, mybe they just build an engine and gearbox in 5 months... building engines and gearboxes ain't that difficult; I build many with my Lego Technics, when I was 20 years younger....

Edited by Exploded

Calypso Rose Rules the World!

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I have friends who work in powertrain and I must admit I am sceptical if Lotus can build a reliable inhouse design in such a short time frame. Or was it already in development? or is it based on an already established block?

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

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occasionally wonder if some on here will only ever be happy if Bahar fails and the company goes completely tits up, just so they can say "told you so" on the internet.

Nope, I certainly want Lotus to succeed, but I don't see unconditionally praising the CEO in light of some of the questionable decisions and expenditures made to date.

Certainly changes needed to be made, but just being "different" and off the wall on some things with seemingly no grasp of financial consequences does not guarantee success. Right now I see a lot of icing on an expensive cake without the cake being baked yet.

I'd like nothing more than he proves me wrong and that he can tell me the Emperor really does have clothes under those fine invisible threads.

I think Lotus really isn't Lotus without innovative engineering technology (like lightness engineering) with an absolute premium on ride and handling. If that core value isn't maintained over fluff there really isn't a point in being a "me too" Porsche /Ferrari/Lambo. I think LeMans and grass roots sports car racing would have been a better place to spend $$ (focusing on product) then the ego trip expenditure of non related F1. (An Evora winning class at LeMans should mean more to a prospective buyer than decals on someone else's chassis, but if the future market really is high roller hairdresser types than I guess I wave the white flag.

I'm waiting to be dazzled (hold off with the smoke and mirrors show in the mean time)

Edited by comem47
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It amazes me to see how much speculation and hype are /and is going around a "potentially" good vehicle and a team in F1 with all the drama surrounding it (phew what a sentence)

What is on offer at the moment ,may give us some insight into the future ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and i do not mean good or bad ;

1.an ageing boy weekend racer (elise/exige) which is due for major makeover .

2.The Evora ..who really seems to be between a rock and a hard place in terms of future developements.

3.A historic bunch like us who just love the cars.

4.Lots of speculation for the future cars

Nothing else is concrete ,from a money making perspective ?

Technically sound ...Theoretically poked !

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@ GKP and all

My sources are autoblog.com and autoguide.com via a link posted on US forum Lotustalk.com!

My link 1

You're totally right though there's an awful lot of conjectures. However most are not mine! I'm just reporting them in a constructed kind of way!

Most of it comes from french motorsport newspaper and international online publication or journalists blogs.

Do I want Dany Bahar to fail? Hum no not really I don't agree with everything but I'm impressed at the team he put together, the prototypes he presented... Do I want cars to come yes I do! But for the record the current Lotus Elise is done in the US by summer's end!

My link 2

North America won't receive the 1.6L!!! It's a bit confusing! Originally the 2ZZ cars were supposed to be phased out but they were to be replaced by the 1.6L in the North America too! Which means at this point that on their number one target market they only have Evora to sell!

Edited by NedaSay
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Would it be wild speculation to suppose that the new "in house" V8 engine would share a lot of parts with the cosworth 3.5 litre Exos T125 engine. This is a race engine that Lotus have taken half way towards being a road car engine. Would still have all the approval problems, but would be a small and light starting point. Perhaps "Lotus Cosworth" is the race association that Group want

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Would be quite similar to what McLaren have done with the MP4-12C engine, which is based on the Nissan VRH35 LeMans engine and developed into a road engine by Ricardo.

Considering the current link with Engine Developments Ltd ,aka JUDD, in producing the new Lotus Indy engine My link , the JUDD DB 3.4 My link would be another interesting engine to do the same with.

Edited by gtornes78
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@ GKP and all

My sources are autoblog.com and autoguide.com via a link posted on US forum Lotustalk.com!

/snip for the sanity of other forum users/

So your newspaper clippings must be true? Yet my newspaper clippings must be fantasy?

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Turnips are produced in Norfolk. Does that mean they're a Lotus vegetable or does it mean they just have similar postcodes.

My point on the F1 side was that in one conversation (thread) you are saying "It isn't a real Lotus F1 car just because it has the Lotus name" yet in the other you are saying "It may be designed in Italy, developed in Germany and Built in Austria but its still a Lotus because it has the badge on the front". You can't have your cake and eat it mate!

Or maybe you went to the Bahar school of logic?

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One thing this thread has shown is we are all passionate about Lotus which is a good thing. I think we all want them to do well and start making great looking very fast cars with the ultimate handling. GRP, Carbon Fibre, Aluminium own V8 or Toyota I don’t think it matters as long as Lotus can make it faster round the Top gear track than Ferraris and Lambos.

Who doesnt agree with me on that? :thumbsup:

BTW Getting a Lotus on the new Bond Film IMO would be the best advertising they could do. It might just capture the imagination of a new generation of school kids for years to come.

Buddsy

 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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