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Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan - Page 2 - Motorsport & Trackdays - The Lotus Forums Jump to content


Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan


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Whoever has rights to "Team Lotus" has the goodwill to allow "Classic Team Lotus" to carry on trading. A good definition of "a rock and a hard place" could be "your landlord and your trademark holder"

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Well my opinion of Group Lotus and Danny Bahar will depend soley on one possible outcome.

IF in the event the summary hearing finds in favour of GL and TF have to stop using the name Team Lotus then they will need all the teams agreement to change in order to keep the 10th place from last year.

If it turns out that only Lotus-Renault object thus preventing the name change then I would consider this petty beyond belief and pretty much confirm what I currently think.

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iSN"T IT JUST SOOOOO INTERESTING !

This one says booo and the other says baaa ....just what the attorneys want and at the end of the day ,when the lights are turned off in the courtroom ,who pays ....you the consumer.

My sentiment is ,if you have lost faith in the arrangement with whoever ,move on! This banter and looming court case will not help the Lotus brand at all .Probably one of the smaller manufacturers with one of the biggest court cases !

All this farting around and the focus has moved to stain the history of the brand.....so those involved grow up and move on if you cannot play nicely !

Technically sound ...Theoretically poked !

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Hi, Richard.

I'm not completely certain if your remarks are addressed to the legal parties involved, or this thread's commentary, or perhaps both. But in any case (semi-pun intended?), the toothpaste is out of the tube. We who post here are assuredly not out to throw more fuel on the fire per se. We are nonetheless entitled to express our take on matters, up to and including personal opinions of events and their participants' behaviours. That is, afterall, what a form is about, non? For the most part, I think the vast majority here are following this specific thread (and other related ones as well) because of our genuine loyalty to the marque, not to spite it. Whatever "focus" that is being generated is a natural byproduct of such inquisitiveness, not necessarily to be accorded any malicious intent.

My apologies if I have misread the drift of your post.

Cheers,

John

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Hi John

No it was not directed at the members and yes specifically at the parties that have anaged to play this out.

I have ,in business ,had numerous occassions ,for which i have needed to seek legal advice .In some cases it has been necessary to either demand or force the opposition hand .

I do however believe that a full frontal enticement will only lead to one result -a bucket of money being spent and the ratio of return is 100:1 (as in result )

One thing is certain.Both parties have spent huge money investing in the brand (and the protection and pride therein) and now the same will spend more in tarnishing it !(the stigma of this will outlive the physical parties to it )

If you and I had spent oodles of money on a project ,we both have an entitlement ,as long as our intent was good and therefore all the more reason why we should sit down like adult (businessmen) and resolve a middle of the road for the brand that we so spent in the first place.

Richard

Technically sound ...Theoretically poked !

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Thanks for the clarification, Richard. Yes indeed, the barrister batallions are sure to have a field day with this one. Let us all hope that it doesn't drag on for ages, but the complexities involved will probably work against that wish. So much energy expended, so little benefit......

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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It seems a shame that both parties are spending what money they have (not to mention time and effort) on legal proceedings when that money, at least in Group Lotus circles, should be used for development on the new cars.

I'm sure Group will state that they are protecting their brand and that TF will state the same, but I can't help but believe this will only hurt both parties. What will be next? Group looking for more investment to help fund the cars as they've spent multi millions on legal issues and B list celebs and TF having so much sponsorship on his car to pay for legal proceedings that even if he wins you won't be able to read the "Team Lotus" monicker?

No. This isn't good no matter which side of the fence you sit on.

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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How much time are the general and motoring press paying to Force India / Sauber / Virgin / HRT - at least for Fernandes this is keeping his brands and him in the limelight. It is a bit double edged for Lotus (and Renault), but if well managed could be good publicity. I suspect that the headlines in the Malaysian Star are more important than the Daily Telegraph for the key players in this.

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To me Group Lotus and Dany Bahar should just drop the F1 entry and concentrate fully on creating Lotus road cars, which is what they are good. And leave Team Lotus to race in F1. Its a win-win, the fans get to see a Lotus back on the track again, and Group Lotus get free publicity!

This is just Group Lotus acting like a spoilt child. Basically going to Team Lotus and saying 'I want it, it's mine' , even though it isn't

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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Antony - I agree.

Somebody said to me ages ago the phrase "perception is reality".

It doesn't matter what the actual truth were behind the intentions or actions the simple fact of the matter is that GL is coming out of this very badly even if they "win".

The publicy perceived timeline is that TF asks nicely for a license, GL grant it, TF gets to the core Lotus fanbase, DB turns up and wants to take over the world, TF has the license revoked for "contract breeches" and then poof! GL sponsor renault to brand the Lotus-Renault.

I find the spoilt child quote quite fitting and unusually myself in the position that I would rather support TF as AirAisa than an official Lotus team after this mess.

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I disagree Graham.

The Copyright for Team Lotus being used in F1 has never been owned by Group Lotus PLC. Its well known locally.

Prior to Group Lotus being owned by the Public Team Lotus and Lotus Engineering did work together but Colin owned the copyright himself. When Lotus cars and Lotus Engineering Floated on the Stock exchange as Group Lotus PLC, Team Lotus was set up and the rights to using that name in Formula 1, i.e. the copyright, were held with the Team Owner and subsequently sold.

Knowing past issues and having lived around Lotus for so Long, I can emember certain people stating that David Hunt is a canny businessman and wouldn't have paid good money for a name that wasn't airtight in its copyright. Theres a reason that Classic team Lotus has classic infront of it surely? Because that changes the Copyight.

However, I am also not a lawyer and don't know the outcome of this hearing. They may very well see things differently in the black and white format they will look at it in. I personally would love to see Lotus complete as an entity all under one roof.

Lets wait and see!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Indeed, which is why I stated you can't tell the outcome. :huh:

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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On the other hand, from what little I understand of the legal world and "the law" it works with, "past precedent" is a major player in ultimate outcomes.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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This is my point though - even if it is "theirs" Group Lotus will come out of it appearing to be spoilt ungrateful children trying to bully and buy their way into F1.

It really doesn't matter if it's the truth or not - thats how it appears.

The british are a nation of underdogs which is why I believe support for Lotus Racing was there. They (LR) appeared to be doing and saying all the right things and it didn't matter that they didn't score a point being consistently ahead of the other new teams was a good initial benchmark for such a new outfit. Lets not forget that in first F1 championship Lotus finished dead last (2 didn't qualify and porsche only contested one round). The following year again Lotus was last out of all the teams that went to all the races. However by 1960 Lotus were right up there and settled in second in the championship. Things take time.

It wasn't hard for Lotus to push all their motorsport using the same colour scheme and use the F1 drivers for the team - sure the operations were different but the link was there and all seemed ok.

So GL storming around and playing the bully will just get on peoples nerves.

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A modest proposal:

Tony and Dany agree to meet at the kiddieland go kart track of their choice, and "race for pinks." Additional entertainment to be provided by their respective barrister cheerleader teams showing up in appropriate clown costumes. Dog and Pony sideshows to be featured on the midway.

Winner takes all, and gives Bernie a call.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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I still want to see if the bill of sale from the Chapmans was worth the paper it was printed on (legally). I just want it done quickly. It really bothers me that someone could (in a figurative sense) sell you a car and then years later tell the person you in turn sold it to that it shouldn't be driven or seen by the public, but thank you very much for the money that was paid.

.

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A modest proposal:Tony and Dany agree to meet at the kiddieland go kart track of their choice, and "race for pinks." Additional entertainment to be provided by their respective barrister cheerleader teams showing up in appropriate clown costumes. Dog and Pony sideshows to be featured on the midway. Winner takes all, and gives Bernie a call.

Isn't that called Formula One anyway?

:sofa:

Dave.

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I'm still really amazed that people regard the team of Tony F the real succesor of Team Lotus,

He only bought a name. Which may or may not be legal to use in F1.

It's like Spyker, nobody thinks that the new Spyker is the resurected Spyker brand or factory.

It's seen as a total new brand. Which uses styling influences of the past.

Same as the team of Tony F, they are a F1 team which is using the name and some

styling cues from a team from the past.

Both Tony and Danny are business people handeling only for their own good.

The people in the company's make who they are and carry on the culture and legacy of a brand.

The legacy and culture of Lotus is there in Hethel. Not in Sepang, nor in Hingham. and maybe, not yet or ever in Enstone.

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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Well be get into shades of gray here. Lotus Cars and Engineering was bought by GM and Bugatti and now Proton, so it's still not the original purebred standalone Lotus Cars in that sense. (It is whatever the current owners choose it to be, and we all know it would be a HUGE mistake to move operations out of Hethel, least it loses what it is/was and it better stay true to the lightweight, superior handling roots or why bother.) Harley Davidson was sold at one time to AMF (bowling equipment. etc) , under them it totally strayed from its roots trying to compete with a poor imitation of Japanese bikes and finally was salvaged by a private buyback by a group of investors and it has successfully returned to its roots and tastes of its loyal customers.. So is Harley, not Harley ?(It did put out junk that little resembled the original bikes, but it has returned)

As for the F1 TEAM, the Chapmans saw fit to sell it, rather than let it die as memories in the past. So for whatever you call TEAM Lotus, it WAS sold and the owner has the right on paper to call it that (F1 fans may of course think otherwise)

Edited by comem47
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It could have been so easy If Bahar and Berro had stuck to their initial plan! Focus on non f1 racing and Production cars!

Letting Lotus Racing create brand awareness and Group would have joined the circus in a few years!

Instead of that we have a very messy situation that nobody but lawyers and F1 medias are happy about!

Shame!

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No it's not that easy. In that situation Danny would allow Tony to controll the brand. And let him take all the revenue from merchandising.

Thing that puzzles me still is why Tony was allowed to buy the Team Lotus brand from mr Hunt, and Group Lotus not.

Did Tony offered way more money?

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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Thing that puzzles me still is why Tony was allowed to buy the Team Lotus brand from mr Hunt, and Group Lotus not.

Did Tony offered way more money?

David Hunt offered it to group Lotus before Tony Fernandes but they weren't interested at the time. You snooze you lose and don't try to take it for free later!!!

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I find that hard to believe, especially at a time Mr Bahar was in charge.

First there was the naming deal with Proton and F1Malaysia to use the Lotus Racing name,

Then Dany was installed as the CEO of Lotus, and was not so happy to see the naming deal

with F1Malaysia. At that time he certainly was interested in the Licence of Mr. Hunt but did not buy it.

Only when F1Malaysia made a breach of contact by using the Lotus logo (And maybe some other stuff)

F1Malaysia bought the license of Mr. Hunt. I can't think Mr. Bahar just forgot about that option for F1Malaysia.

It can be that Mr. Hunt tried to sell the license to Lotus earlier in time, an naturally Lotus was not interested

as they could not afford to be in F1 anyway.

VAN DER LEE Turbo Systems     -      www.vdlee.com

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