free hit
counters
Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan - Page 22 - Motorsport & Trackdays - The Lotus Forums Jump to content


Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan


Recommended Posts

"The thing is Bahar is trying to create the illusion..."

Absolutely true. On the other hand, isn't that what advertising is all about? Creating illusions? We "purists" (and I count myself in that elite group, of coursehappy%20dance.gif ) may object to the sleight of hand being manifested here, but there are enough credulous critters out there (in Dany's mind at least) to ensure that such shenanigans will likely continue, pedantics be damned.

Memo to self: try to grit teeth less.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
  • Replies 576
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I'm getting quite frustrated that some people are buying into the Team Lotus branding exercise but then flame Group Lotus for being a fake!

Team Lotus is 1 Malaysia Racing Team and have bought into the Team Lotus branding as its commercially useful; overnight they have a claim to the heritage of the fourth most successful constructor in F1 history and this has helped them to develop a large fan base over a short period of time (along with it has to be said a very good communications strategy that really involves and entertains the fans).

Of course there is all sorts of arguments about how the relationship between the two groups broke down, but it seems clear that both had different visions for how the Lotus brand would develop in the future. Group Lotus were extremely stupid not to buy the Team Lotus branding rights last year when they re-entered the sport in collaboration with 1 Malaysia Racing Team.

I'm a Team Lotus fan (i have spent enough on merchandise from their website!) but I feel frustrated that their success will be used to promote a(n indirect) rival to Lotus cars. I wish Team Lotus would rebrand as Caterham Team Lotus and with a Caterham chassis. This will help them develop and promote their road car business without applying Team Lotus stickers to cars that aren't Lotus' (I don't want a lecture about the fact they are based on the official Lotus 7 design, I know!).

As for Group Lotus basing their business on the Renault team? Its no less sincere that what Team Lotus has done in reality, and look at all the other teams; Mercedes (formerly Brawn, Honda, BAR, Tyrrel, Matra International), Red Bull (formerly Jaguar, Stewart Ford), Force India (formerly Spyker, Midland, Jordan), even Renault (Benetton, Toleman). I think its a really weak point these teams are businesses and no one complains over other re-branding exercises so why are they on this occasion?

It will be interesting to see if tomorrows court case will help resolve anything regarding chassis naming rights, it might be that if Team Lotus are restricted in how they promote Caterham with the Team Lotus brand then it will force them to increase the Caterham branding and change the chassis name as a result.

I also wonder what will happen at the end of the season if Group Lotus can't rename the Renault chassis as a Lotus. Cosworth have said that they are confident they will keep three teams on the grid going forward and that they are open to their engine being rebranded (this next bit is a theory I've come up with it probably isn't fact). Could the Renault chassis be rebranded using the name "Works" or the initials "CABC" and the Cosworth engine used and badged as a Lotus? Therefore the official car would be a Works-Lotus or CABC-Lotus. I suspect commentators would shorten this to just "Lotus" and they would call Team Lotus "Team Lotus".

Alternatively could FOM just enter the chassis names as Works Lotus and Team Lotus anyway??? Last year Sauber ran as BMW Sauber Ferrari so having a chassis name containing two words has a precedent.

Whatever happens I hope it is all finalised before the start of next season, as I feel this constant arguing is preventing both businesses develop their branding consistently as well as devaluing the Lotus brand overall.

Edited by Gus82
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm getting quite frustrated that some people are buying into the Team Lotus branding exercise but then flame Group Lotus for being a fake!

The difference is Team Lotus are a constructor, Group Lotus are only a sponsor.

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference is Team Lotus are a constructor, Group Lotus are only a sponsor.

I see your point but I completely disagree!

You could argue that 1 Malaysia Racing Team are the actual constructor operating under the Team Lotus brand name (after all the team name changed over the winter from Lotus Racing which was at the time sanctioned by Group Lotus).

The team that build the Renault chassis is currently called Lotus Renault GP. I understand that the official entry or chassis name is not the same and that Lotus don't own any of the team directly, but they ain't going to buy the team until they know that they can rename the chassis to their benefit. I don't believe that the % of the team owned by Group Lotus matters in the short term. Its the involvement of Group Lotus and their official sanctioning of use of the Lotus name that matters.

I really don't understand why Group Lotus are being vilified for using their brand like any other car manufacturer to promote their business.

I doubt it! LRGP cannot change chassis name now! Ironically they have to! But I doubt they'll be able to!

They can and will. The concorde agreement is coming to an end so they can do it then without any other teams having to give consent (or lose money) and I've read they may be able to do it even before that as the team has operated as Renault for more than 5 seasons (the rules are to stop people changing names constantly).

Plus Team Lotus won't want to upset their engine supplier, and Renault want the chassis name of the Enstone based team changed.

Edited by Gus82
Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your point but I completely disagree!...........

I really don't understand why Group Lotus are being vilified for using their brand like any other car manufacturer to promote their business.

I really comes down to they really aren't a F1 constructor (yet). They should have paid money for the TEAM LOTUS name when the opportunity arose but didn't and we wouldn't be having any discussion if they did buy the name (and everyone would be happy). Instead they tried to muscle the name back for free from someone who did ante up the money. I still think Group Lotus should be concentrating its finances on getting the next automobiles out the door, but DB couldn't let TF run that show (would have been so much cheaper for all concerned).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your point but I completely disagree!

You could argue that 1 Malaysia Racing Team are the actual constructor operating under the Team Lotus brand name (after all the team name changed over the winter from Lotus Racing which was at the time sanctioned by Group Lotus).

The team that build the Renault chassis is currently called Lotus Renault GP. I understand that the official entry or chassis name is not the same and that Lotus don't own any of the team directly, but they ain't going to buy the team until they know that they can rename the chassis to their benefit. I don't believe that the % of the team owned by Group Lotus matters in the short term. Its the involvement of Group Lotus and their official sanctioning of use of the Lotus name that matters.

I really don't understand why Group Lotus are being vilified for using their brand like any other car manufacturer to promote their business.

They can and will. The concorde agreement is coming to an end so they can do it then without any other teams having to give consent (or lose money) and I've read they may be able to do it even before that as the team has operated as Renault for more than 5 seasons (the rules are to stop people changing names constantly).

Plus Team Lotus won't want to upset their engine supplier, and Renault want the chassis name of the Enstone based team changed.

I did say that they had to and this was because Renault wants out of F1! The only Renault Entity in F1 will Be Renault Sport F1!

Team Lotus may not want to upset their partner! Still with RBR Renault, Williams Renault, Team Lotus Renault, Lotus Renault GP looks a bit redundant especially considering that Team Lotus Renault is able to activate the sponsorship in place that do matter to Renault most: South East Asia!

Lotus Renault GP will be able to Rename the team yes! But renaming the chassis even with concorde agreement coming to an end is not that easy! It's not so much changing it! As you said it's changing it to what: Lotus Cars, CABC Lotus (sounds more like a bank credit card) Lotus Works! Yes why not! If anything I think Tony Fernandes could veto a name that could damage his brand or mislead people! That's funny, this one is a bitch ! The other factor to consider is how much support Team Lotus has gathered in the media and among fans and oh yes... in the corporate world! Places where LRGP, despite way better results has failed quite badly so far! And not for lack of trying the people at Genii are trying their utmost to find sponsorship so far no luck!

Now I'd like you to imagine a stupid scenario! Let's imagine that Ferrari leaves F1 - ludicrous I know - Then let's imagine that they want back in and are not disposed to pay a fortune to get a licence and therefore decide to buy a team that is for sale for cheap, Mercedes GP or STR! What would people reaction be?! 'Yeah! Ferrari is back!' No! You would have a massive uproar in Italy and the F1 circus would be laughing! Group Lotus decided to come to F1 by opting for a wise and probably easy way by buying themselves a good team! Problem is they are part of the F1 Elite and when you're part of F1 elite you cannot do some things! It's not so much that they cannot do it cause they can and they did! It's just that F1 is image and Lotus image is not the one of a sponsor but an F1 manufacturer! Now I know Lotus was never a F1 manufacturer, Team Lotus was and is again regardless of who owns it!

Now comes the money problem does Lotus Cars have enough money to buy the team and make it sustainable in the long term! if the sponsorship in this year championship is an indication I'd rather say no! An F1 team like the LRGP cost north of $150M actually the proper number may be closer to $200M. Lotus is investing something like $20M now! GENII comes up with the rest of the money. Not to say that it is impossible but in this economy finding sponsors is not easy! Finally should they do it! Should they spread their resources really thin and buy the team! Part of me is yes they should do it and part of me is no this is a stupid idea they should focus on the roadcar business cause I really want that new Lotus Elise of theirs!

Edited by NedaSay
Link to post
Share on other sites

You could argue that 1 Malaysia Racing Team are the actual constructor operating under the Team Lotus brand name (after all the team name changed over the winter from Lotus Racing which was at the time sanctioned by Group Lotus).

I really don't understand why Group Lotus are being vilified for using their brand like any other car manufacturer to promote their business.

At least F1 Malaysia and Team Lotus are owned by the same company, whereas the Renault team is owned by GENII. Group Lotus are a sponsor and nothing more, No one's vilifying them for that but I just don't think they deserve the same respect as a constructor simply for slapping a few stickers on another teams car. Let's face it DB only realised the value in the TL name after he'd sold the rights. It's a messy situation but for me GL's messy attempts at spoiling Team Lotus's party are ill conceived and do nothing for the brand except generate money for lawyers.

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole thing is tedium at the highest level now. :sleeping:

Who cares except the lawyers making a fortune and the overblown egos of a couple of megalomaniacs.

Caught between a rock and a hard place in a catch 22 situation, So its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Your damned if you do, but your damned if you don't so shut your cock!!!!!!!!!!!

Lotus Espirt Turbo S3    

Lotus Esprit S4 

Lotus Elise S2 Sport 130

pig_zps6d7342f1.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think they should both drop the ACBC (that influence died in 1982) and move forward as Team Lotus and Group Lotus / Lotus Racing. It really is not that confusing. A Renault without the Renault engine will be more confusing (as the BMW Sauber Ferrari).

Sadly the LRGP team is midfield rather than front runner, and is not getting the megabucks that the front runners have. I think the question of numeric correctness of the next win will not be a problem for some time

Link to post
Share on other sites

Group Lotus are certainly getting plenty of publicity for their circa £20M investment in the Renault Team and at the start of the season it looked very good value indeed.

However of late things (unfortunately) do seem to have gone backwards and today's exploding exhaust/KERS/Radiator or whatever can't have helped their efforts to present Lotus in a new light.

I am by no means against a lot of what Mr Bahar is trying to change and turnaround within Lotus but on the subject of F1 I really feel he has backed the wrong horse.

Edited by 61GT
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am by no means against a lot of what Mr Bahar is trying to change and turnaround within Lotus but on the subject of F1 I really feel he has backed the wrong horse.

Indeed - I really can't understand how Proton let things unfold as they did - they seemed to have backed both Fernandes and Bahar at about the same time in 2009 and only later realised they were incompatible. GL will need every last penny of the massive loan to get at least some of the range to market and big money sponsorship of Renault F1 when there was a free alternative is a reckless waste.

GL at the moment reminds me of the "burn rate" phenomonon of the 1999 IT bubble (wage bill £4M/week? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8651844/Lotus-on-the-right-track.html ) but in their case there is no prospect of an IPO for rabid private investors or buyout by huge flush corporations that will square the circle later on. I do hope it all works out in the end, though, the way fairy tales do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

None of this crap embodies the Lotus of the past, its all a poor attempt at recreating how great Lotus once were in F1 , something that I feel no ammount of 2nd rate marketing by both entities have a hope in hell of recapturing.

Colin Chapman's drive and charisma,Tony Rudd's knowledge and genius, Peter Warr's organisational skills, Ketteringham Hall , a great sponsor (John Player Cigarettes),cool drivers (Jim Clark, Graham Hill,Jochen Rindt, Andretti and Ronnie Peterson), innovation, brilliant engineering and design, thats what Lotus F1 was to me.

Bahar paying to put a dinner plate size Lotus sticker on the nose of a Renault or an Asian businessman's attempts to convince me they are true worthy succesors to the Lotus of the past both kinda sicken and annoy me somewhat.

All they have done so far is to turn the Lotus name in F1 into something of a farcical joke, neither are true successors to the true spirit of the Lotus name IMO.

Edited by billy fish
SUNP0003-1.jpg
Link to post
Share on other sites

I got fed up with reading all the above, but can some explain to me how both teams use the ACBC roundal? Who does that belong to?

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

Link to post
Share on other sites

None of this crap embodies the Lotus of the past, its all a poor attempt at recreating how great Lotus once were in F1 , something that I feel no ammount of 2nd rate marketing by both entities have a hope in hell of recapturing.

Well it's true Lotus without CABC is a very different animal but then so is F1...

I think the Team Lotus operation started off well, there's something of the Minardi spirit about Team Lotus. Sure it's not Chapman run be but at least Tony Fernandes is putting his hand in his own pocket and going racing. Buying Caterham was a smart move too and it does seems TF is ahead of the game as opposed to Dany Behr... who seems to have backed the wrong car too. Kubica clearly flattered the Renault car last year, the site of the car exploding on the grid wasn't great press either... but then I wonder how many people even associate the team with Lotus?

I would love to see this situation resolved though, it's a shame the two companies can't reconcile their differences and run under the Team Lotus banner as one unified team. Meanwhile back in the road car factories Group Lotus could build the Ferrari chasers and Lotus Caterham could keep the existing Elise/Exige end of the market alive and happy!

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys - Lotus 101 - Anthony Colin Bruce Chapman - ACBC.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it's true Lotus without CABC is a very different animal but then so is F1...

I think the Team Lotus operation started off well, there's something of the Minardi spirit about Team Lotus. Sure it's not Chapman run be but at least Tony Fernandes is putting his hand in his own pocket and going racing. Buying Caterham was a smart move too and it does seems TF is ahead of the game as opposed to Dany Behr... who seems to have backed the wrong car too. Kubica clearly flattered the Renault car last year, the site of the car exploding on the grid wasn't great press either... but then I wonder how many people even associate the team with Lotus?

I would love to see this situation resolved though, it's a shame the two companies can't reconcile their differences and run under the Team Lotus banner as one unified team. Meanwhile back in the road car factories Group Lotus could build the Ferrari chasers and Lotus Caterham could keep the existing Elise/Exige end of the market alive and happy!

100% agree with that, other than in F1 their plans don't actually cross much. Thats why I wonder if it would be better if the LRGP car didn't have a Lotus chassis (so 'Works' or something else) but they did build a Lotus F1 engine and Kers system, therefore they try to do something exciting, new and relevent, rather than living off past glories that were only loosely connected.

It also potentially allows the possibility that at some point in the future there could be a Group Lotus powered, Team Lotus chassised F1 car. All the legal silliness stops and everyone can get on with making their businesses a success. I suspect that this last paragraph is wishful thinking for a decade at least!

Plus whoever said about the stupid Lotus badging that appeared a few races ago, I 110% agree. Everyone understood the message with the black and gold paint scheme and Lotus written on the back wing, the excessive badging looks awful and cheap. At the end of the day they need real sponsors!!

I also think Lotus should try to abandon other open wheel racing series and focus on closed wheel GT and Le Mans racers that could be run by privatier teams as Porche has done so successfully. With so much focus on LMP1 in the next few years I wonder if Lotus would be better spending their sponsorship on GP2 and GP3 plus their Indy car participation on a full works LMP1 programme instead of LMP2. Could you imagine Lotus beating Porche, Aston Martin and possibly Jaguar....

Theres also been points raised about spending money on motorsport instead of new cars. I don't have the knowledge to comment frankly and I doubt many of us genuinely do. All I know is that whatever Mr Bahar's own track record is, he has recruited and retained a very impressive team of engineers and managers who I'm sure would have left by now if the first of the cars was not going to happen. I can only assume that Lotus would not have entered into this motorsport expansion if they couldnt afford it. Time will tell!

Anyone know anymore about the court case rumoured for today? Not seen anything else about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I got fed up with reading all the above, but can some explain to me how both teams use the ACBC roundal? Who does that belong to?

The judge ruled the "goodwill" associated with the history of Lotus, including the Lotus name and the ACBC roundel, were jointly owned by GL and TL. Though TL can only use them in relation to TL's historical activities, basically F1.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The judge ruled the "goodwill" associated with the history of Lotus, including the Lotus name and the ACBC roundel, were jointly owned by GL and TL. Though TL can only use them in relation to TL's historical activities, basically F1.

Thank you for that.

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.theracedriver.com/2011/08/lotus-vs-lotus-round-two-more-details-revealed/

Fernandes threatened with prison for contempt of court. Judge slams him repeatedly.

But only if he did not follow the judges instructions not to meet with Lawyers and just bring the paperwork requested to the judge. Which he obviously did, as this was days ago, and there has been no news of him being imprisoned.

Both Tony and Dany have been slammed by the judge so he is obviously getting sick of this.

To be honest this is just getting tedious now, Bahar is clutching at the tiniest of straws just to try and get one over Tony.

If he is allowed to do what he wants with his brands, why shouldn't Tony.

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Other famous true court cases : Showaddywaddy versus Showaddywaddy, Wombles versus Wombles (the loveable furry suits versus a cleaning company) ..and now Bucks Fizz versus Bucks Fizz. Wish they`d make their mind up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

“Well, I read 20 contracts a day. I can’t be expected to know ever detail,” replied Bahar.

Somehow I doubt you'd get that kind of response over at McLaren... good luck 'New Lotus' ! :sofa:

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...