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Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan - Page 3 - Motorsport & Trackdays - The Lotus Forums Jump to content


Lotus vs Lotus legal actions starts Mon. 24.Jan


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Garp, I think that Bob was referring to an "earlier in time" opportunity for Group to have purchased the licence from Hunt. They've had many years to do so, and passed on it.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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This thread I believe was brought up before, but it deserves a read in total to get David Hunt's perspective. (initially Group Lotus not fighting his original purchase and claims and later offering it to Group Lotus before Fernandes had his shot at it.

http://joesaward.wor...out-team-lotus/

Edited by comem47
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This thread I believe was brought up before, but it deserves a read in total to get David Hunt's perspective. (initially Group Lotus not fighting his original purchase and claims and later offering it to Group Lotus before Fernandes had his shot at it.

http://joesaward.wor...out-team-lotus/

This is an interesting interview, I have read it before, I like the bit where Hunt says about licencing the 'Team Lotus' name to Fernandes.

Hunt: “I would be quite happy to take back custodianship of Team Lotus and defend any actions brought by Group Lotus/ Proton. I have no fear of Group Lotus or Proton whatsoever and am entirely confident of the legal position. Tony could have a licence to race as Team Lotus. That would free him up to focus on delivering results on track and the fans would see the true DNA of Colin Chapman’s F1 legacy on the grid next year whilst I sort out the legal side. After all, I have 16 years of knowledge of Group Lotus/Proton’s actions and am therefore the best person to defend any claims they bring. We might even have an action or two we could bring against them!”

if push comes to shove, I hope that Team Lotus ownership can be returned to David Hunt. Group Lotus should NEVER own it, because they have never owned and the way they are carrying on over this matter, the should never own it.

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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How does Tony Fernandes achieve this Antony?

the true DNA of Colin Chapman’s F1 legacy

I've rarely seen such a load of tosh. As I've said a thousand times, 1Malaysia Racing has about as much to do with Team Lotus heritage as PG Tips do, bar a chq that was written in 2009 and another in 2010.

Right, I'm off to JJB to get that bat then B&Q for a hammer and some nails to make sure you're paying attention this time and the message 'sinks in'.

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OK, my take on all this. They may not win on the track or in the courts but I will be supporting Team Lotus this year - this is my thinking on this:

Last year Lotus paid nothing and got lots of publicity from having a Lotus F1 team.

Danny Bahar has chosen not to keep the free publicity but instead has committed to spending $20 million per year (I think) to sponsor the Renault team for the next five years. This $100 million is just advertising - they do not own the team.

So the choice was to spend $100 million on developing new cars and have a middle ranking F1 team for free or or spend $100 million on advertising on a middle ranking F1 team and not have this to spend on new car development. (The Evora cost about £30 million to develop?).

Spending the money on Lotus Renault was the wrong choice so my loyalty is with Team Lotus for the season ahead, even if they finish behind Lotus Renault.

As for the legal battle, no solicitor will want a quick settlement so my guess is the case will still be running at the end of the season. Well placed sources tell me that Bernie wants both Lotus teams competing and what Bernie wants he usually gets.

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I was only quoting the bit about if it came to it, Hunt retaining ownership again and licencing the name.despite the fact that it the still run by the same company, Team Lotus Ventures plc, which is the rightsholder to Team Lotus brand, it may have been sold but it is still the same company, just as Group Lotus is even though it has has a few different owners!

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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What I'd reeeeeeeeally like to know is what happens if the High Court reaches an unfavourable decision for Team Lotus smack in the middle of the season? Just asking.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Your question Mr Heath and your starter for 10. "What happens when Team Lotus beat Lotus Renault ?" :thumbsup:

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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I'll take another letter, please.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Can you all see what this is about !

Each and every one has different views ......This is exactly what the two sides have(formula one teams) . So the "race" is on to see who wins and unfortunately Lotus suffers. Imagine if they shook hands ,begged to differ but threw all the lolly at one team ! Everyone would win ,including the cars on the track!

Technically sound ...Theoretically poked !

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Last year Lotus paid nothing and got lots of publicity from having a Lotus F1 team..

Other way around, last year F1Malaysia paid nothing for a brand that gave them instant credibility and access to sponsors.

Sure Lotus got some free publicity. That was the agreement on which both parties would be happy, but it never

was the intention for Lotus to give F1Malaysia the ownership of the brand.

For F1Malaysia the Lotus brand is absolutely necessary to make a good business in F1.

While for Lotus it's nice but not vital to be in F1.

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For F1Malaysia the Lotus brand is absolutely necessary to make a good business in F1.

While for Lotus it's nice but not vital to be in F1.

I disagree, The way Dany Bahar is acting it appears F1 is vital to his plans (why scramble to get Group Lotus name on the Renault car if Fernendes cars are now not available if it's not important?) I'm fairly certain Fernandes will race as Team Air Asia (or whatever) if the court finds against him. He's got a lot of the money himself to go racing, unlike Dany Bahar who is spending investors money like crazy right now. stuart.gif

Edited by comem47
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Who will buy a hat and a jacket of Team Air Asia. And which sponsors besides Tony's own company's would like to be on a air Asia car.

He's got lots of money, but in F1 a lot is not enough.

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Who will buy a hat and a jacket of Team Air Asia. And which sponsors besides Tony's own company's would like to be on a air Asia car.

He's got lots of money, but in F1 a lot is not enough.

Who would buy a Red Bull hat and jacket? (it's not a road car) There are plenty of other sponsors he could come up with given time, maybe Coca Cola, who knows? JPS was not a Lotus, but a cigarette that Team Lotus popularized and then people bought JPS wear. Plenty of sponsor opportunities if he keeps up the progress and someone will want space for worldwide exposure(a better paying sponsor than Lotus road cars) . In the mean time he's got money to continue while things play out in the courts.

Edited by comem47
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I think F1Malaysia could have a whole Nation's worth of sponsors. So far there is little danger of the Lotus sponsorship of Renault being lost amongst the other sponsor logos

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Who will buy a hat and a jacket of Team Air Asia. And which sponsors besides Tony's own company's would like to be on a air Asia car.

He's got lots of money, but in F1 a lot is not enough.

Me and a lot if others, because the real fans of the team don't care about the name, just like Virgin have their own fans,

The fans that were only there for the name, have jumped ship over to Lotus Renault GP, because they think it has more to do with the old Team Lotus.

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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Perhaps because they have more to do with group lotus, the people who make the cars we drive. Don't assume to tell me my opinion or reasoning mate...

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And because Group Lotus are a continuation of the original Lotus Engineering Company that Hazel lent 50£ to Colin to start, and has a direct lineage back to the first Mk.I

One thing I find facinating in the current debate is the continued argument that the two companies had nothing to do with each other. Yes, they were legally separated, and after Group Lotus went public there was different ownership involved as well, but the two companies were always interwoven. Hethel and Ketteringham Hall are just a few minutes drive appart (at least it was before Potash Lane was closed on one side), Chapman was the head of both and there are dozens of examples of people that were involved at different times at both the racing and car sides of the business. More importantly, in the presentation of the two operations they were always seen as being two sides - one racing, and the other road cars - of the same brand.

The Hunt/Fernandes argument is that Team Lotus is not the same as Lotus in the automotive world. By the same arguement you could then say that Scuderia Ferrari is not the same as Ferrari. I say this is rubbish because their contructor/chassis names in F1 are Lotus and Ferrari, and these are also the names used in probably +95% of all references when the teams are talked about by fans and media.

Edited by gtornes78
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i won't deny the close ties between Team and Group (never did) but Colin willed the TEAM to family and when he died the legal bridge went away between the two. (his choice with evidently no provisions for Group) The Chapmans should have worked out some sort of deal with Group (but didn't ) and everyone would have been happy. They took the money and can't have it both ways. It is now up to the court to decide what they sold.

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This post is about the legal wrangle and to get it back on track, you can argue the closeness of the 2 companies all you like, but legally, they were seperate. Its like going to court with supposition against hard documented proof. You can't win.

That said, the UK legal system is complicated and copyright even more so. Everyone here is talking from the heart, but this week they will be dealing with documented proof, hard evidence and Precedence. No matter what we would like to happen, be prepared for the opposite.

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Me and a lot if others, because the real fans of the team don't care about the name, just like Virgin have their own fans,

The fans that were only there for the name, have jumped ship over to Lotus Renault GP, because they think it has more to do with the old Team Lotus.

That probably makes you fairly unique.

I think most people admire a team for it's unique caracteristics, McLaren being the super clean technical perfectionists.

Ferrari the team about passion. Sauber the team next door swiss underdog. Even Red Bull has a identity of their own,

as the thrill seeking danger sports brand. Only I'm struggeling with the identity of F1Malaysia. Did they think they can

buy a identity of the brand of technical innovations and seeking the edge of the regulations.

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That probably makes you fairly unique.

I think most people admire a team for it's unique caracteristics, McLaren being the super clean technical perfectionists.

Ferrari the team about passion. Sauber the team next door swiss underdog. Even Red Bull has a identity of their own,

as the thrill seeking danger sports brand. Only I'm struggeling with the identity of F1Malaysia. Did they think they can

buy a identity of the brand of technical innovations and seeking the edge of the regulations.

Maybe they (F1 Malaysia) don't care what sentiments there are in Europe. Their target market might be closer to home. Asia/China/India is developing at a rapid rate. I can imagine a lot of people there would be excited with a team from their part of the world.

DanR

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My friend whos with "Team Lotus" pointed me in the direction of this interview on radio Norfolk. They very much see themselves as Team Lotus and Renault as Renault. Heres a snapshot :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9364049.stm

He (Gascoigne) pointed out that the difference between the two different Lotus names in F1 was "we are a constructor, not a sponsor".

He added: "It's very clear, there are two Lotus cars on the grid, which are entered by Team Lotus, and two Renaults, which are entered by the Renault constructor. Lotus have chosen to sponsor them for whatever reason."

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This post is about the legal wrangle and to get it back on track, you can argue the closeness of the 2 companies all you like, but legally, they were seperate. Its like going to court with supposition against hard documented proof. You can't win.

That said, the UK legal system is complicated and copyright even more so. Everyone here is talking from the heart, but this week they will be dealing with documented proof, hard evidence and Precedence. No matter what we would like to happen, be prepared for the opposite.

Kimbers,

Completely agree with you there. My last comment was directed at Anthony's claim, and is a reflection of why I personally support Group in this case. I am still actually a fan of the Fernandes/Gascoyne team as well, mostly because I like Gascoyine, and following them last year I thought they deserved all the credit they got on their own merit. But I was Lotus fan - equally of the F1 and cars side - first and have been so for 20+ years. Regardless of the outcome this week my primary support will remain with Group, but I agree that the case is probably wide open and beeing prepared for any outcome is a good idea.

Edited by gtornes78
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