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Proton raising funds for Lotus


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If you were in charge, would you be happy with this or would you allow it to continue? The line that would have had to have been drawn wasn't a long way off, it's unlikely Lotus would exist for much longer at that rate, seriously.

Hope not, there is to many of the British brands going to same way as Rover and MG

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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Whilst that is the view of Mr Bahar, Bibs, its not actually true and everyone knows it...according to the accounts filed with companies house and my friends at credit safe the Group of companies made 1.5520 million in 2008 and 0.388 million in 2009. If you remember the articles at the time, Proton cleared the bottom line when Mike Kimberley took over so the profits showed (at the time) onto a real £0 bottom line.

Now whilst nearly a £2 million bottom line isn't the actual true worth of the company. I would guess that to be £170-280 mill, its also no where near £1.

Unless, of course, you take into account the effect of new management which just made a huge loss, by cancelling the Elise and derivatives, underselling the Evora and going on a wild "I'm the man" spending spree, not to mention costs spiralling out of control with more Senior Management than ever before, paid more than ever before!

£1? Only after the current Management are finished with it.

Edited by Exploded

Calypso Rose Rules the World!

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The offers before he started for Lotus were for £1, £2, and one for £10. All of them in lieu of the company who purchased them inheriting their debts.

Read this story from 5 days ago, reported in the local papers. They're not lying....

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus_on_track_for_turnaround_despite_12m_losses_1_777760

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Debt is a funny thing - it's often shifted about here and there. Just look at Manchester United and Liverpool.

If proton wanted to sell they've two options -

1) shift a load of debt in (doesn't have to be directly connected with Lotus) and sell for a £1

2) shift the debt out of lotus and absorb it elsewhere and sell for a much larger amount.

It all depends what yields the most cash.

What I suspect will happen is half way through the process a choice will be made based on how things are going.

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Kimbers, your link's article said that Group owns 100% of the Lotus Renault shares. Is this a typo?

Bahar wants to triple current production of the road cars. That strikes me as awfully optomistic, even with the multi-year timeline given. Not impossible, but quite a challenge. He's also looking to add 1,000 employees at Hethel (if he gets his UK loan approved). Is he later planning to "morph" the manufacturing process from hand built to automated? Or are the additional personnel intended for Lotus' traditional construction methodology?

ads_green, it seems that you see a sale as a foregone conclusion. Have you a prospective buyer in mind?

Finally, perhaps a little more creative thinking along these lines might help the bottom line?

670x377Image.jpg?p=110114_05:32

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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He's also looking to add 1,000 employees at Hethel

He's already added 750 since starting there...

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Kimbers, your link's article said that Group owns 100% of the Lotus Renault shares. Is this a typo?

The money Bahar has committed Lotus to spending in F1 is just advertising, they do not own any equity in the team.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/165988/1/boullier_group_lotus_doesnt_own_any_of_renault_f1.html

Perhaps its just me, but had they spent the $100 million on developing new cars then great. I struggle however to understand why its a good idea to spend $100 million advertising when another "Lotus" F1 team was giving them this exposure for free.

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I was trying to find a emoticon for hope but there does not seem to be one....

A lot of what seems to be going on does not make sense to me, but then again I have never run a car company so perhaps not qualified to judge.

I have my doubts, but as a glass half full person I really hope they know what they are doing and Lotus survives and grows.

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A lot of what seems to be going on does not make sense to me, but then again I have never run a car company so perhaps not qualified to judge.

Just remember, Mr Bahar hasn't run a car company before either. (not that it will make you feel any better) devil.gif

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Though possibly a naive viewpoint, I keep coming back full circle to a belief I expressed some time ago that Dany's main motivation in this whole affair is his unwillingness to accept the "free publicity" generated by a startup team running (as any realist would expect) in the back of the pack. It would seem that he is more of an "instant results" oriented gent, and is looking to improve (in his mind, at least) marketing PR by the outright purchase of "upgraded" grid position. It would make for an interesting case study to run the numbers on the ratio of car sales for a given marque to its F1 end of season grid standing, to see if there is any significant merit to this approach. Another related analysis might be performed with regard to the effect (if any) on sales of marques finishing as backmarkers in a single season. That is to say, is it better to stay clear of F1 altogether if you can't consistently place midfield or better?

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Don't forget that these new cars need a KERS system. Ferrari doubled the price of the 599 when they added KERS (that's £200K) to recover the development costs. Lotus Racing don't have this, Renault (aka Genii) do. There's also an exchange of engineers on the cards, up to 30 each way I understand, was this on offer with Lotus Racing, it wasn't last year. Perhaps those too are more motivations...

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Roger - Why do you keep posting stupid, cryptic pictures in threads? If you've got something to say, say it, stop thinking this is some quiz show and if your post is referring to my post above, that's your very wrong opinion, my post is based on fact.

I'd rather not place you back on my ignore list as I have to monitor your posts as administrator but you're very, very tiring.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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a handful of straws what does that mean?

edit -

it just came to me, its clutching at straws, in other words to try to find reasons to feel hopeful about a situation

Edited by Antony Peacock

What is the difference between an overtake and a crash? An overtake is a crash that never happened!

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My point, thanks Antony.

It's 'clutching at straws' which, as a reply to my factual post as I assume it as since it follow it, is incorrect.

Just remember, Mr Bahar hasn't run a car company before either. (not that it will make you feel any better) devil.gif

Which I guess is why he pays people who have run the biggest car companies in the world for advice. One person can't be expected to run an entire operation, what successful manager doesn't surround himself with excellent staff, the best you can find?

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Don't forget that these new cars need a KERS system. .

Do they? This would seem a lot of weight and complication. Outside of F1 (with capacity / fuel & rev limits) there are a lot more eligant solutions to give a bit more power

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Just remember, Mr Bahar hasn't run a car company before either. (not that it will make you feel any better) devil.gif

Which is nothing new, as very few of the former CEO's at Group Lotus since Proton took over, Mike Kimberly excepted, has run a car company before coming to Hethel:

1997 - Chris Knight, former Royal Dutch Shell

2001 - Terry Playle, former car parts supply and non-exec on Lotus board

2002 - Victor Kiam (not sure he was ever CEO, but rahter just titled "Shareholder's representative), Proton finance man

2004 - Kim Ogaard-Nielsen, former IT consulting (IBIS) and shipping (A.P.Moller/Maersk and Norasia Lines)

Which I guess is why he pays people who have run the biggest car companies in the world for advice. One person can't be expected to run an entire operation, what successful manager doesn't surround himself with excellent staff, the best you can find?

And in contrast to Bahar, none of the above listed predecessors did as far as I know bring any significant number of other managers, either with or without car industry experience with them.

What Bahar does bring with him is at least a lot of connections and experience from the motorsport world, having been Dietrich Mateschitz's right hand man in charge of Red Bull buying both Jaguar F1 and Minardi, as well as seting up the Red Bull NASCAR team.

Now wheter or not this means Bahar's plans will succeed, I have no idea, but he certainly has a track record that is impressive. I'm hoping for the best :thumbsup:

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Guest surferphil

Though possibly a naive viewpoint, I keep coming back full circle to a belief I expressed some time ago that Dany's main motivation in this whole affair is his unwillingness to accept the "free publicity" generated by a startup team running (as any realist would expect) in the back of the pack. It would seem that he is more of an "instant results" oriented gent, and is looking to improve (in his mind, at least) marketing PR by the outright purchase of "upgraded" grid position. It would make for an interesting case study to run the numbers on the ratio of car sales for a given marque to its F1 end of season grid standing, to see if there is any significant merit to this approach. Another related analysis might be performed with regard to the effect (if any) on sales of marques finishing as backmarkers in a single season. That is to say, is it better to stay clear of F1 altogether if you can't consistently place midfield or better?

I think Danny is in the position where he wants 'control' more than 'free' when it comes to advertising. Licencing the brand name was a mistake Danny is trying to rectify, as its very important that he has full control over all advertising and any use of the brand.

I think his strategy comes from marketing at Ferrari, when Ferrari win races they sell cars (that's not a guess). Excellent performing cars on the grid market the brand as one representing: Performance Technology and Success. That is very important for Lotus right now. He is doing the right thing.

..... The other option was that Lotus were sold for £1, (that's all a company with their balance book is worth and was in fact offered for Lotus many times recently) and engineering retained while the road car company was closed down. .....

I said a very simelar thing recently and got Kimbers telling me how wrong I was and that 'I would belive anything' :unsure: of copurse he is wrong.. :harhar:

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I think it's wrong to prejudge based on snippets from the media.

Whilst Bahar Humbug has a certain ring to it, I'll pull up a chair and wait to see how he does over the next couple of years before I damn him prematurely. Whilst I'm a hands-on sort of bloke, I also appreciate that some people don't need dirty fingernails to do the same job - as mentioned earlier, being able to delegate and build a strong and focused team is a more important management skill than knowing how to glue a chassis together. Bahar comes across (maybe clever PR by Alastair Florance) as a man with a vision, impeccable contacts and the drive to sell that vision to all concerned.

So for now, I wish him well. The business environment even in good times is remarkably fluid and being able to keep the plates spinning won't be helped by us highlighting every broken promise or volte face. We want Lotus to emerge strong and successful, and it's going to take big balls and an amount of risk-taking to do that.

Proud recipient of the LEF 'Car of the Month Award' February 2008

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: "Wow, what a ride!!"

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