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412 BHP...THAT WILL DO NICELY......

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Hi all just thought i would let you all know the preliminary result of the dyno tune to synchronize all the 'Changes' i made to my esprit engine....

There is still a bit of tidying up to do on the mapping which will smooth out things a bit more...

I have detailed notes on the new design parts and 'changes' made i will do some threads on Esprit Technical to share with you all what has been done , how , and why...

There is a couple of surprises on what worked better than expected and somethings that just could not live up to expectations . Details and data will follow....

post-10519-0-11146500-1304179834_thumb.j

The red lower lines were pre synchronization

post-10519-0-60942500-1304180067_thumb.j

post-10519-0-47391100-1304180310_thumb.j

I will try to answer all questions but some spec info is not complete and it may be two weeks before the full spec can be listed.

Dave L.

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Hey now! I'd like some details please. :thumbsup:

Also, this "flywheel corrected" stuff is BS. Dyno shops should show you actual WHP. Any correction is a just a guess.

..and what's the other chart? Is that from before your overhaul?

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Fantastic work, thats a lot of ponys to get out he 4cly, you must of spent a pretty penny on upgrades on this, Do you track the car or is it a daily driver... Im intrested to see how long the engine lasts

as this must be pushing the far outer reaches of the 4 pot.

Engine bay looks fantastc, a really tidy well designed baywith some nice custom alloy touches, Look forward to the build detail, Bet it goes like stink! Did you leave it as 2.2 or have you increased the cubic capacity!

Regards danny

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Hi all again ,

Thanks for the nice comments....

Nige....No its not back yet, a couple of weeks to tidy up lose ends and finalize the mapping....will let you know when...

Dan...You really don't want to know how much this cost....Its not a track day car, its a daily user....Thats why it cost so much...Race engines only need to last a season. This one was built with a lot of modern technology to provide smooth reliable power.... If it was to be raced then there is more to be had ,... But this would require more changes and drive-ability would be compromised. We are bumping up against some spark issues and fuel issues at this level....these will be addressed . To go to the next level would require the c.o.p.system and a remote waste gate...we are already getting some boost creep when in low setting over 6000 rpm , but not a concern when the boost controller is turned up...I can live with that........It is still a 2.2 built with mostly new parts.... And as i have not driven it yet i can not say how quick it will feel , but the tuning guy said it will pull the wrinkles out of my face when i floor it......Wheeeee can't wait...

Lucas.....if you go into the web site of Northampton motor sport it will explain how the new type of dyno's work , the dyno's measure the transmission drag on run down and compensates accordingly...Its not BS its the way they do it now,.... saying that not all dyno's are to this standard, some just employ software to recalculate a flywheel figure, and that is 9 parts guess work as it does not have any transmission data..

The red lines were the first datum run up to get a base figure to work from....They represent the standard ECU. injectors.ignition, coil pack etc. with the engineering mods....A gain of 20 bhp from factory new was made from just these engineering mods with a far improved torque figure.....

hope this clears some points.

Dave

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Never mind all this technical nonsense, the important question is why "blue" hoses on a red car ? :no

Everyone knows they should be red or black. :police:

Time for a re-build Dave :coffee:

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Hi all again ,

Thanks for the nice comments....

Nige....No its not back yet, a couple of weeks to tidy up lose ends and finalize the mapping....will let you know when...

Dan...You really don't want to know how much this cost....Its not a track day car, its a daily user....Thats why it cost so much...Race engines only need to last a season. This one was built with a lot of modern technology to provide smooth reliable power.... If it was to be raced then there is more to be had ,... But this would require more changes and drive-ability would be compromised. We are bumping up against some spark issues and fuel issues at this level....these will be addressed . To go to the next level would require the c.o.p.system and a remote waste gate...we are already getting some boost creep when in low setting over 6000 rpm , but not a concern when the boost controller is turned up...I can live with that........It is still a 2.2 built with mostly new parts.... And as i have not driven it yet i can not say how quick it will feel , but the tuning guy said it will pull the wrinkles out of my face when i floor it......Wheeeee can't wait...

Sounds fantastic, Yeah i can well imagine the money spent, very easy to spend on shiny custom bits :whistle: Coil over plug sounds like a good idea and should not be that expensive as you could source bits for a custom kit yourself, Glad to see its been built as a daily driver cant wait for you to get behind the wheel to see what this goes like,

Love the comment "pull the wrinkles out your face" :hrhr: sounds awesome :thumbup: Looking forward to updates on this one, regards danny

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If I pulled a 412 I’d be over the moon too, but I’m just a little skeptical. ..



  • Anytime I see “corrected” my BS meter goes off. I’ve done a bunch of pulls on a bunch of different dynos (Dyno Jet, Mustang, and Dyno Dynamics) and I’ve always gotten WHP values. What dyno were they using?

  • When the shop building the motor does the pulls you have to consider that they are want to make you feel like you’re money hasn’t gone to waste. Independent testing is the way to go, and I never tell the operator what I’m expecting.

  • You Euros always seem to get bigger numbers. :-) I don’t know what it is, maybe this “correction” thing is routine over there.

Again, I have no idea what you’ve done to your motor and how much boost your running, but I know there are a lot of guys dumping a ton of time and money into their turbo-fours who aren’t getting near that.

Here are some of my dyno highlights…

  • 08/2004 – DYNO JET - 221WHP/212 TQ - Baseline, no mods
  • 10/2004 – DYNO JET – 233 WHP/240 TQ - Cooler day, still no mods
  • 01/2005 – DYNO JET - 264 WHP/257 TQ - New exhaust (turbo back), cold day
  • 07/2005 - DYNO JET - 257 WHP/256 TQ - New fuel system (injectors, rail, hoses, filter), warm day
  • 07/2005 - DYNO JET - 259 WHP/294 TQ - New fuel pump
  • 11/2010 - MUSTANG – 331 WHP/276 TQ - New turbo, stainless manifold, major refresh, running WAY too much boost (20psi @ 6300)
  • 04/2011 - DYNO DYNAMICS – 273 WHP/ 261 TQ – Stand alone boost controller, ~15psi at MAX HP @ ~ 6000RPM

Incidentally…

Dyno Jets are known to record GENEROUS numbers.

Mustangs are measured at the HUB (wheels removed).

Dyno Dynamics are known to be really conservative, “heart breakers” even.

Point is…

  • Using a dyno to claim absolute HP/TQ numbers is a tricky business. They’re better for tuning run-to-run.
  • I have a feeling that if we did back to back runs are cars wouldn’t be that far off. Just a hunch.

I know it probably reads like I'm trying to shit on your parade, but I'm not. I'm just playing devils advocate.

Can’t wait to see more details!

Edited by karmavore

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Yet to see a dyno shop "willingly" establish a baseline on the day. They can be reluctant to run a factory standard car in good tune, either before or after the test car. The comparisons against the factory certified HP can give interesting results. Operators with a vested interest can still fudge these comparisons though.

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What did you do to the IAC valve? Looks blanked off, but then there is a new device across from where it normally is.

What injectors? pump? Regulator? Pressure?

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from Dan Sounds fantastic, Yeah i can well imagine the money spent, very easy to spend on shiny custom bits

They were the cheep bits in relation to main working parts.....eg. custom made alloy expansion tank / swirl pot (SE spec with altered orientation ) only £165. it would cost more for factory part ..!!!

from Travis What did you do to the IAC valve? Looks blanked off, but then there is a new device across from where it normally is

What injectors? pump? Regulator? Pressure?

The original IAC was not up to the job required on the new system, so a more advanced modern remote unit was installed .

The injector are 800's the pump Sytec m/sport. and a remote adjustable pressure regulator..

from Lucas If I pulled a 412 I’d be over the moon too, but I’m just a little skeptical. ..

Yes i'm pleased and no not skeptical at all. I was there for all the runs to observe . and take notes.

When the shop building the motor does the pulls you have to consider that they are want to make you feel like you’re money hasn’t gone to waste.

Independent testing is the way to go, and I never tell the operator what I’m expecting

]you Euros always seem to get bigger numbers. :-) I don’t know what it is, maybe this “correction” thing is routine over there.

I agree ....I built the motor with my design mods to a spec for the use the car will have.....the idea was to see if it could be done... and the tuning guy's are Independent contractor ( Highly recommended )

It is not in their interest to ''fudge'' the figures... anyway i can not see how they could....any engine will only produce what it will, to get more you change the spec, simple as that.... I always say you only get back what you put in ://www.northamptonmotorsport.com/default.asp?id=16 Ref; : rolling road.

The uk has a very long dedicated m/sport history. and we can squeeze out the extra bhp from little engines if required..... but it isn't cheep ,, to development this engine and ancillaries has cost me £12,500. Thats $20,000.oo plus my own build / design time of circa 200 man hours

I know it probably reads like I'm trying to shit on your parade, but I'm not. I'm just playing devils advocate

No problem, I have a hose and a good strong brush.... :hrhr: :hrhr:

Just a small point of interest, i have not just put it on the dyno and produced 412, we started at 282..installed the new ignition / fuel system then produced 365 and cooked the new turbo. called in Turbo technics.. They designed a new one on the data gathered from early runs.... then we hit 412....The boost is max 1.4 bar, as we are starting to blow the spark off the plug with more....we are looking into that . also fuel pressure suspect at top end ... looking into that also...That is the reason for the dip in power at 7000 rpm

This is an information gathering exercise to see what can be developed and how...for a road going car ...not a race car....

Dave

Edited by CHANGES

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from Dan R......... Yet to see a dyno shop "willingly" establish a baseline on the day. They can be reluctant to run a factory standard car in good tune, either before or after the test

car. The comparisons against the factory certified HP can give interesting results. Operators with a vested interest can still fudge these comparisons though.

The red lower figures are the baseline that was set up as starting point.....on that run it was the factory set up with just the engineering mod's ,, it produced 20 more bhp than factory because of the those mod's......I was personally disappointed with that figure , taking into account how much engineering mod's had been done....... This does however prove the point that just doing part of the job won't get you the full benefit from those parts or the results you seek.. Its only when you do the full package and then synchronize everything together that the full benefit is realized....

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No I don't mean your baseline but putting another standard car on the dyno at the same time. One of your everyday hacks, (here it would be a Commodore or Falcon), get it's wheel reading, no f/w correction and then compare that against the wheel reading of the modified car.

These numbers can be disappointing but need to be put in perspective. For example, I've seen Japanese factory standard "baseline" read 140wbhp where the manufacturer specifies 240 bhp. Then a modified German car went on the dyno. From the factory it had 250bhp but that couldn't be tested. What could be were its mods and it was just under 200wbhp. Other owners were claiming 250+ for the same mods. Strangely they were all as quick as each other.

The final assumption was the German as standard and with reference back to the baseline Jap car done at the same time, probably would have been about 150wbhp. So its mods gained about 50bhp, or an increase from 250 to about 300. Didn't look as good as the bragging rights of 350+ from the other owners. But, like I said earlier, there was no difference in their performance.

If I've confused you, it's about getting the wheel power for a vehicle where it's power is definately known. That means running a factory standard car at the same time. Everything can be referenced back to that.

Edited by DanR

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Do you know the "correction" factor the dyno came up with?

Do you have A:F, MAP and Freescan logs before and after the fuel and spark mods? 83 HP is a HUGE increase (that's about a 30% !) with out adding any air. Can you state specifically what you did?

What turbo were you running during the 282 and 365 HP runs vs. the 412 run?

Are you still using the Delco ECU?

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From Dan R No I don't mean your baseline but putting another standard car on the dyno at the same time. One of your everyday hacks, (here it would be a Commodore or

Falcon), get it's wheel reading, no f/w correction and then compare that against the wheel reading of the modified car.

I'm confused at all the fuss. .......an every day hack has no spec to compare to .....its old...down on power etc ....the only true comparison is a brand new factory car of original spec and unused.......as this is not available....we will use the data supplied by Lotus cars a fine upstanding company with a great reputation...The data supplied is power at the fly wheel not the wheels. The reason they do this is because they are referring to the power of the engine not the car..... the power of the car is given in its 0-60 mph .acceleration capability ......all the motoring programs use these as the references..... not bhp at wheels......

.As i stated my base figure was close to the factory's for an SE spec and that was with engineering mod's to improve it .....such as......, Exhaust, induction, Turbo, Cam timing, Charge cooler, plenum capacity, polished and ported, matching chambers. matched v / springs light weight forged followers. complete super dynamic component balancing........ You would think all that would make a lot of difference not just 20 bhp.... all of this only brought it in line with the S4s power.......SO.....Either the factory exaggerated the figures, or the dyno is reading low , or all those mod's on there own did not give much more power improvement... I think the later.....

Irrespective of where you take your readings from, its the improvement in performance you are looking for........ The ignition and fuel 'Changes' synchronized with the other engineering mod's produced 47% increase on base line performance and 57% on factory figures .....

This development project is about finding out what is possible and what works

Its performance at the end of the day that count's not the figures.....and this thing is going to go like greased squirrel shit .... :unworthy:

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Who cares what the figures are? Awesome lump, and clever use of space. :thumbsup:

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In truth - we dynod about 5-6 Esprits a few years back at Merlin motorsport in Milton keynes and they all came out spot on.

Infact the ONLY cars to actually achieve their HP were the Lotus's and the Porsche....same HP and 23 years old 117000 miles....amazing.

We had 2-3 standard cars, inc a V8 that came in at.............350hp corrected

Mine was spot on as expected @ 252 hp with air filter / exhaust / catch tank mods (it did ponse the overboost up though, looking at the graph trend it was building power again and would have it ~260)

So its fair to say I have about 212 whp

Alans std S4s was 286hp

(lol @ the TVRs, Ferrari and the Noble which were WAY under)

So it is possible, using rundown to estimate flywheel horsepowers.

Thing is a lot of people turn up the boost and eff around with the car and dont really consider their cars COULD produce a lot more HP if they didnt neglect the rapid increase in temperature the turbo is producing.

You've only got to have a blocked chargecooler rad or have it misbehaving and you're gonna lose huge HP levels once the turbo start running past its effeciency zone and throwing out red-hot air.

Plus you wont see these figures on the road becuase of the soak heat in the chargecooler which robs you of significant power - chipped cars only make the problems worse....as I say good for a short burst but you still get massive losses on prolonged runs and fast driving.

FYI my drag factor was ~46.5 HP - 1 whole 5th of my output !

Lucas - this also rings true considering about 1-2% error with your figures. Your std car is 221 whp and has 200cc more than mine so I'd say that was more than fair.

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from Lucas Do you know the "correction" factor the dyno came up with?

No but i will certainly find out for you.....The chassis dyno used is the superflow 1200 bhp unit. they also make engine dyno's and use data from the two to calculate the corrected figure

.Do you have A:F, MAP and Freescan logs before and after the fuel and spark mods? 83 HP is a HUGE increase (that's about a 30% !) with out adding any air. Can you state specifically what you did?

No but again i will get all that info if you are interested . I will take a memory stick with me next visit and down load the lot...

specifically what i did at what stage ????

What turbo were you running during the 282 and 365 HP runs vs. the 412 run?

Garrett T35 HYBRID.. at 282 up to 365 when it could not handle the flow volume.... we were finding it spooled up very fast but could not hold the pressure at 1.4 bar it kept dropping off , we tried changing the actuator from a -31 to a -34 . but no good already cooked it...

Not sure of the spec of the new one, details not reached me yet. i will let you know when i do ....got a pic of it ....

Are you still using the Delco ECU?

No .. Binned the lot... now using OMEX 710 system...

Edited by CHANGES

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Thank you Jonathan, :thumbsup:

my Armour was getting thin trying to explain... and a very good point on the c / cooler , the bespoke system i have designed is working far better than i could ever of hoped for.....and certainly is a major contributory factor to the power achieved..

Edited by CHANGES

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