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412 BHP...THAT WILL DO NICELY......

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WRT the cooling, is that the thinking behind the plenum being silver ?

For the life of me I dont understand why the S300 was dark (heat retaining) grey - the heat from the engine bay is only serving to warm it up after the chargecooler has done all the work.

Does make me chuckle a bit - Lotus were thoughtful enough to plonk some cooling (in the S300s case, heating) fins on the plenum but chose to paint it charcoal grey.

The black rubber hosing doesnt help, neither does no insulation between the engine and the chargecooler.

My thoughts on improving the cooling were to actually run the chargecooler hoses outside of the chassis so they are not pre-heated. Although the cooling on the GT3 is reasonably efficient, the other thing I'd like to try is adding a 2 litre or so holding tank in the boot area - ethos being more water, more stable the temperature.


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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

Whilst black is liable to absorb heat better does that not mean it will also radiate it better too? I suppose it depends on how much heat it needs to dump versus how hot the engine bay is. I have an NA so it's al arbitrary :)

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The setup looks nice, makes me miss my old Esprits.... :thumbup:


I think it's fast enough…maybe

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First and foremost I want to say this: comparing dyno numbers between different cars, in different years, on different continents, with different dyos is ludicrous. Dyos are meant to compare changes run-to-run.

That said, just because its ludicrous doesn't mean it isn't fun: :innocent:

Lucas - this also rings true considering about 1-2% error with your figures. Your std car is 221 whp and has 200cc more than mine so I'd say that was more than fair.

Remember, my numbers aren't corrected. They'd be much higher on those rosy European dynos.


Luke Colorado, Super Spy.   -  Lotus Owner No Longer

1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269)

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From Jonathan WRT the cooling, is that the thinking behind the plenum being silver ?

Not really, but interesting observation

I concentrated on the charge cooler to do the donkey work on the cooling....and yes i ran the pipes outside the chassis... but alas not through design more necessity... the new design pipes are 1'' bore way to big to go through the chassis.. .. by their very nature they increase the overall water capacity , which assists the cooling process.( just as you suggested) . but by a bit more than 2 litres..... Another major gain was made with a bespoke alloy radiator at the front . instead of a/c type rad originally fitted..

I also fitted thermal insulation between the c / cooler and the engine to reduce heat soak....

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No but i will certainly find out for you.....The chassis dyno used is the superflow 1200 bhp unit. they also make engine dyno's and use data from the two to calculate the corrected figure

Please.

No but again i will get all that info if you are interested . I will take a memory stick with me next visit and down load the lot...

specifically what i did at what stage ????

I'd love to see an A:F and MAP and MAT charts before and after the spark and fuel mods (282 to 365 HP). That's a huge HP gain to get unless you were way off to beign with.

Not sure of the spec of the new one, details not reached me yet. i will let you know when i do ....got a pic of it ....

Thanks!

No .. Binned the lot... now using OMEX 710 system...

Now we're getting somewhere!

PS, all those cooling mods are great for drive-ability and consistent performance, but I doubt they make much a difference when it comes to your peak HP number, especially if your Turbo is appropriately sized for the boost you're trying to run.


Luke Colorado, Super Spy.   -  Lotus Owner No Longer

1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269)

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For Lucas

Now we're getting somewhere!

Ahhh the plot thickens.... :shuriken: .....would you like any details on the sequential injection system.... :book: .!!!!!!

ECU info

post-10519-0-60992300-1304274840_thumb.j

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Lucas you didnt read my post correctly - my GT3 is showing ~ 206hp at the wheels (roughly) standard, your with an extra 200cc made 221hp which is comparitable.

The dynos we used were not sexed up, they were basic roller types - the guys had never seen Esprits before and 3 standard cars within 1% true BHP.

The thing with cooling is it gives you more usable HP. Fine for a 1 off dyno run you might get 300hp, then the chargecooler get so hot from then on you're only getting 250hp

I'd much rather have something right up the middle, 275hp running consistantly.

True black does radiate heat as quickly as it absorbs it, but it radiates it into an already hot engine bay - fine for heat sinks where the surrounding air is colder, bad if its hotter - much rather reflect the infrared away from the metal.

Those in doubt check the silvering on top of a standard chargecooler - colder than the red areas.

If / when / how the GT2 project goes as planned my engine bay was going to be 'silverised' and the chargecooler pipes run outside of the chassis under the seat bolts in copper or aluminium tube - mine has the aircon routed in series with the chargecooler rad so there is a bit more cooling capacity there.


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Ok Dave, if it was possible to run an Evora or 2 or 3 at the same time I'd expect your modified car to pull about 100-130wbhp more. That would put it around the 380-410 mark.


DanR

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Lucas you didnt read my post correctly - my GT3 is showing ~ 206hp at the wheels (roughly) standard, your with an extra 200cc made 221hp which is comparitable.

The dynos we used were not sexed up, they were basic roller types - the guys had never seen Esprits before and 3 standard cars within 1% true BHP.

Perhaps, but my real beef is with the correction factor stuff. Which number did you get Jon, the corrected number of the real one?

The thing with cooling is it gives you more usable HP. Fine for a 1 off dyno run you might get 300hp, then the chargecooler get so hot from then on you're only getting 250hp

I'd much rather have something right up the middle, 275hp running consistantly.

Of course, I'm just trying to figure out how ~412HP is achievable from the 910.


Luke Colorado, Super Spy.   -  Lotus Owner No Longer

1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269)

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From Dan R.....Ok Dave, if it was possible to run an Evora or 2 or 3 at the same time I'd expect your modified car to pull about 100-130wbhp more. That would put it around the

380- 410 mark

???? sorry was that a question or an observation....!!!!!

From Lucas.......Of course, I'm just trying to figure out how ~412HP is achievable from the 910.

With a lot of careful engineering , precision engine building , new design mod's. the latest top of the range parts...And research...ohh so much research....

The factory produced around 420 bhp in the GT1 cars many years ago.. so its not a new thing...others have had more than that , but for racing purposes....

What sets this project aside is the drive-ability ..... Its easy to poor bhp into the donkey , but its being able to use it without being kicked in the ass..!!!

By using a lot of modern technology and design innervation , I set out to achieve smooth power... And it has not been straight forward...

The original budget went out the window 10 months ago....and the finished project is 6 months behind .... But i am getting there...

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Lucas - when my car was dyno'd, along with a few Esprits that day, you get a wheel horsepower reading.

The operator can see when max hp is reached then lifts off and lets the engine run down - the computer knows the deceleration of the rollers, as the car is keeping the rollers from slowing down the computer can then estimate the transmission losses.

I got 206hp at the wheels, and ~252 corrected. Standard my car should be 240hp - but mine has a superb exhuast and some induction mods.

The standard cars we had there produced flywheel and wheel HP figures within 1hp of the factory specification. The F355, TVR 500 and Noble M12 3R tested on the same day were all WELL under their factory (que the excuses LOL)

As I say the 2 lemans cars and the GT2 (300 sport) were producing ~ 420hp for qualifying and through the race about 400hp with 1.6 bar boost. They were fairly well modified as you can expect but even they run standard chargecoolers !

They would also have been race fit for 24 hrs with that power.

I believe the X-180R racer was running about 325 hp on standard boost - 0.85 bar. They did a similar thing and got the extra 25 hp just from tinkering with the chargecooler.


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Thanks Peter... .. will do ...to late to stop now anyway...... :thumbsup:

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Any chance we can move on from discussing the various technical aspects of rolling roads? The comments are not bringing anything new or useful to this thread and are diluting what has the potential to be a fascinating read.

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Wow! I too would LOVE to know the details! First off, How in the world did the head gasket stay intact at this level? I've invested well over $15000 USD just on my engine parts and build two years ago and keep blowing the head gasket! Any pics of the ECM installed in the car? I see the delco in the pics you posted. Also, I see you posted that the fuel system is upgraded, yet still running the stock plastic formed lines to and from the fuel filter? I feel there are pieces being left out Changes. There are a few of us here stateside that have invested significant time and money to produce decent power and have more or less failed to meet our expectations. I am no slouch when it comes to building quick sportscars and quite frankly am skeptical of what you have posted. NO disrespect meant, have just been building my car for the last 5 years and have come no where near this rating! 308 Wheel Hp is the best I've managed on the old stock worn out engine mind you! I have posted many if not all of the details of my build. So my question is this....Did they use this magical ECU with the engine on the dyno? But it seems you still have the Delco in the car. Also, the heat dissapation is important, but Lotus designed the stock sized intercooler to handle short blasts, easily long enough to do a dyno pull then allow time to cool etc. You can ice the intercooler as we usually do when we dyno our turbo FD's and other turbo cars locally. BUT, making the cooling more efficient doesn't allow you to physically change the ambient capacity! If the intercooler you are using, which is very nice, would love to put one on soon, it won't get the charged air cooler than ambient so I don't really consider that a huge factor when dyno'ing a car. Lucas has spent copious amounts of time, money and effort on his car, and I am POSITIVE that his intercooler is working correctly! Both of us are just very intrigued by the output you have claimed and are very interested in the details of EVERYTHING used to achieve this!

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Seems to me Dave is to wait until its finished, get all the data from the northhampton,then shove it all on here and let every one make up there own minds,about your 412 Esprit. :shuriken:

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welcome on board Artie....

Firstly can i say i followed your build with great interest , I think you share the same passion as i do ,..... so understand how skepticism can creep in when you have tried so hard to achieve the figures but come up short........Lets see if we can work together and find out what the differences are, share all the details and info and see what gains can be made.........I seriously do not think you are that far away , 308 at the wheels is going to convert to around 370 at fly wheel ......not to be sniffed at........

An interesting point just there.....365 was where we hit problems . we could not maintain boost , the turbo and manifold were glowing... i mean really glowing... and we started getting detonation back in the engine ....not good...!!! It turns out that the extensive gas flowing and pulse tuned exhaust manifold allowed more air volume in the turbine than it could handle result....1 cooked turbo....and that was an uprated one...... so back to the drawing board...... I will go into details on solution and new turbo later....

I will now try to clarify some of the point you made and answer your questions..... '' so many in one go...''

1. How in the world did the head gasket stay intact at this level?

I paid extra attention to the nip and made sure it was the same on all four pots...and very strict on head tightening.. It should be able to handle this level no problem .

2. Any pics of the ECM installed in the car? I see the delco in the pics you posted. Also, I see you posted that the fuel system is upgraded, yet still running the stock plastic formed lines to and from the fuel filter? I feel there are pieces being left out

I have not got one of ECU in the car ....but have a pic of the 600 system on demo board...its very similar..and shows the layout details....

Yes the pic you refer to is on the 282 set up and it all got changed.... the fuel line, injectors, pressure regulator, etc.....and I binned the secondary injector system....

3. Did they use this magical ECU with the engine on the dyno? But it seems you still have the Delco in the car.

The first run (282) was done on Delco bog standard ECU...and fuel / ignition set up....Then we ripped it all out and fitted the trick bits....Omex ECU .etc.

post-10519-0-76150600-1304344220_thumb.j

4. The charge cooler

There is a bit more to it than just the cooling.....cooling is very important and makes big power gains when engine is under constant load... we did around 15 -20 full power runs on Saturday only turning the engine off twice in four hours to make small adjustments... the charge stayed ambient or as near as makes any difference the whole time... in fact we ran out of petrol at one point... The other point in my design was air flow.... there is a massive amount of air goes through that system and any restriction acts like a choke and restricts the power gains at higher revs.... also makes the compressor work harder than it needs also sapping power.....

I will try to cover the points as they arise and add relevant info as we go

Hope this is a start.... I would very much like to see you achieve the same results.

Dave

Edited by CHANGES

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Any chance we can move on from discussing the various technical aspects of rolling roads? The comments are not bringing anything new or useful to this thread and are diluting what has the potential to be a fascinating read.

No.

First off, with out my prodding this discussion would exclusively contain messages of "cool" and "wow". Even your message is, essentially, empty. If you have question, ask it. Otherwise enjoy the ride.

Secondly, the horsepower claims here are quite fantastic and I'd like to understand how they were achieved, beyond "careful engineering".

Geesh!


Luke Colorado, Super Spy.   -  Lotus Owner No Longer

1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269)

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No.

First off, with out my prodding this discussion would exclusively contain messages of "cool" and "wow". Even your message is, essentially, empty. If you have question, ask it. Otherwise enjoy the ride.

Secondly, the horsepower claims here are quite fantastic and I'd like to understand how they were achieved, beyond "careful engineering".

Geesh!

I'll quite happily edit out any peripheral noise from this thread. Repeating the often tedious discussions about rolling roads and their fallibility is a waste of time. If you want to start a separate thread about such things, I'll help move some of your comments over to it if you like.

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From nige...Seems to me Dave is to wait until its finished, get all the data from the northhampton,then shove it all on here and let every one make up there own minds,about your 412 Esprit.

Nice point Nige but i think its a bit late....the horse is out the paddock syndrome if you get my drift :horse:

412 Esprit ? is that your nick name for it..... :whistle:

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Id very much like to know the details! I have considered on numerous occasions to scrap the delco ecm, however, I haven't been able to keep the head on the new engine long enough to dyno the new setup to even get a reasonable comparison to before and after. I am very familiar with what a stellar ecm can do to change a car as I have a track fd with a standalone ecm and it makes almost 60 more hp than the tuned stock(ie chipped) ecm at one less psi of boost! That being said, I'm just really trying set some respectable landmarks for this engine that aren't often repeated, as interest in this thread have shown! I have always believed it could be done, but has eluded me from even attaining a paltry level of power from such a "big" engine and a stage 3 turbo! Even though my chargecooler is stock sized, I have a huge magetic drive water pump from Johnson, and a 2"thick custom 3 pass aluminum CC Rad up front much better than the original AC condensor unit that was there. I'm all for sharing knowledge and helping everyone achieve great numbers, but having run into such difficulties with mine, it seems difficult to do! Thanks and I look forward to some more details and info!

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Dave, fascinating stuff. Way beyond "cool" and "wow." More in the "mondo gnarly" category, I'd say! :thumbsup:

Graham, as a moderator you have the right to edit at will, and 99% of the time I have found myself in full agreement with your past decisions. But I, for one, have found the intensely detailed discussion pertaining to "the rolling road" most illuminating. With nada experience with dynos, this thread has been a welcome educational saga for me, and not in the least boring (to a dyno-test neophyte anyway).

While it's true that Lucas has "pushed a few buttons" during his "inquisition," he has gracefully backed off when appropriate. And Dave, god bless 'im, has handled all the perceived "needling" with gentlemanly patience. They seem to be getting on allright, with an obvious common ground passion for extreme tuning serving to buffer pointed inquiries.

Just my two pence worth, nothing more.


Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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I would like to add into this discussion just for additional context, in Lucas' defense, we Americans often see "inflated" correction factors worldwide in claims for HP. We have become a "skeptical" lot in general whenever hp numbers are posted, especially as BHP figures. What we usually look at are performance figures and daily repeatabilty. One can build an engine, attach it to a dyno and tune it within a milisecond of its death to produce a "one time only" number! The wheel hp number is where the rubber meets the road! Is thisgoing to be a repeatable number or a dyno "max hp" number? My FD will make well over 450 to the wheels, but that would be a MAX number that I wouldn't ever attempt to try and repeat with the fuel system in place!

So, that being said, this is how discoveries are made and fallacies are broken or confirmed on open discussion forums. I, nor Lucas, intend on offending anyone, we are just very inquisitive as to the detailed picture, that at this point, is still very blurry and there is more that needs to be elucidated to bring it all together. Hope that helps everyone understand where we are coming from.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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