Pulled over by the Police….

[GordonMasson]

I went to pick up my daughter in Fraser’s car (Fiesta 1.2) on Saturday night, well driving within the speed limits and I noticed a Police car behind me.

Sometimes you just get that feeling that they are going to pull you over and sure enough he did.

It was a young lad on his own.

He asked if I knew why he had pulled me over and I assumed that it was because I had L plates up on the car and Fraser wasn’t driving.

Turned out it was the Number plate he had a problem with.

All in all I can accept that by the letter of the law there is an issue with it being the incorrect font but if anything, the registration plate is easier to read than the “leangle” font.

Surely if they are determined to pull people over for incorrectly displaying a registration number then there are loads of people out there with registration plates that bear no resemblance what so ever to the proper registration of the car because the numbers have been pushed together with the letters etc etc.

Alternatively they could spend their time more productively by pulling up the numerous chavs that thrash round the streets near my house using them as rat runs and quite often coming round a blind bend outside my house on the wrong side of the road where there are parked cars and kids in the area!

RANT OVER!

So…. I have looked at various documents and guidance notes on the web and DVLA sites but they seem to be a bit contradictory regarding a car that was registered before 1st September 2001

The car was registered on 6/7/2001 and we bought the registration plate for Fraser last year so it’s a new plate on the car.

I know going by the new legislation on this car was too old to be covered by these rules on its original plate but may be covered due to the transfer to a personal registration last year??

The current plate uses a non standard font - probably a fair cop but I am not 100% sure

The current plate has a border on it - I think that’s ok but there may be a statutory line width or colour

The current plate has Fraser’s name on it ….Plod says this is not allowed?

The current plate has the Scottish flag on it (landscape) and the SCO ident on a blue back ground. I think this is ok but I have seen other plates with flags in portrait view. I prefer the landscape view.

The current plate doesn’t have any British Standard BS***** info on it…is it required.

The current plate doesn’t have a dealer name or post code….problem?

REMEMBER, this is a July 2001 car with a new personal registration on it.

There is an argument for making sure its just as plod wants it with all of the above so that they don’t find any other excuse to pull the car over but it would be good to know if the font, flag, name, BS*** stuff, border etc etc is genuinely an issue or not.

And as for plod….go and spend my tax money on catching people who really are an issue rather than pulling me over and brandishing the “you are lucky that it was me who pulled you over because if it had been a traffic cop they would have hit you with 3 points and a £100 fine straight off!!”

RANT DEFINITELY OVER…. For now!

[andydclements]

The new regs apply to any car IF it has a plate fitted after that date in 2001, and so any new car from that date is inlcuded but so is yours. Sorry, but that's how it goes.

The current plate uses a non standard font - probably a fair cop but I am not 100% sure Got to be the standard fonr, standard colour size etc.

The current plate has a border on it - I think that’s ok but there may be a statutory line width or colour I think borders are OK, but depends on size and distance in etc.

The current plate has Fraser’s name on it ….Plod says this is not allowed? Not sure if you can't have that, but you do have to have the postal code of the plate manufacturer on it, which is normally where Fraser's name is.

The current plate has the Scottish flag on it (landscape) and the SCO ident on a blue back ground. I think this is ok but I have seen other plates with flags in portrait view. I prefer the landscape view. Don't know.

The current plate doesn’t have any British Standard BS***** info on it…is it required. Yes.

The current plate doesn’t have a dealer name or post code….problem? See above re Fraser's name.

Fair cop, but there must have been some reason why he felt like pulling you over, perhaps he'd seen very little that day that he'd pull peope for.

[Advantage]

pulling me over and brandishing the “you are lucky that it was me who pulled you over because if it had been a traffic cop they would have hit you with 3 points and a £100 fine straight off!!”

Non endorseable offence, £60 fine and no points.

However, even if trafpol didn't get you, the Taste Police will... Tell Fraser to stop it!

[molemot]

It's all in here....takes some reading, though!!! I think you're right...much better things for the Police to be doing than pulling you over for that!! Then again, one young lad on his own would probably not be too keen to start in on a group of obnoxious chavs.....I don't think his more senior colleagues are too keen, either. I think you just became a tick on a chart...one of those "targets" that are supposed to no longer exist.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/pdfs/uksi_20010561_en.pdf

[Simon350S]

I'm waiting the day i get pulled in the Shogun!

Petty tossers!

Some plates are illegible, ridiculously so and I can understand the police having an issue if you can't even read the plate or if it's peppered with screw heads (it's almost comical how many some times) to change what it says.

The DVLA hold these plates back though and sell them at a premium knowing exactly what will happen to them and then say you can't do it. Tossers the lot of them!

[MPx]

If you're bothered about getting stopped again, then just go to Halfrauds or your local factors with the V5 and some ID and they wont know how to do it any other way but legal. Its obviously more fun to buy online to your own spec, but however close to legal you make it look, its almost inevitably going to leave some margin for the more determined "officer" to do whoever's driving. Its more likely to be a stoppy for a young drivers car tho than for the number itself. I've been stopped on my bike for the numberplate, but when the grey was revealed under the helmet they lost interest. Not yet stopped for the numbers on any of the cars.

Oh and I read somewhere that the max fine was now £1k on illegal plates - was that just journo made up bo lucks??

[rogerch]

It's just the Police trying to keep us safe.

[GordonMasson]

Yep I have to agree with the fact that it’s the law and that’s it and it looks like the only way to be sure they wont pull Fraser over is to make the plate 100% legal.

As long as he gets his Scottish flag he will be happy to an extent.

I still cant get over the guy pulling me for that plate though. On my way to work this morning I saw 4 cars with messed up plates…2 of which had the numbers and letters running together to make up a word including an extra bolt or two.

In the car park at work I walked past a further 3 new(ish) cars without the post code and BS bits and one that was so messed up that I couldn’t really figure out which were numbers and which were letters or even the format of the plate……ABC 123D, A123 BCD or AB12 CDE etc

Thinking about it and the fact that it was a very young PC on his own I wonder if it was a simple case of putting him out to look for possible issues on plates and pull people over to get some experience in dealing with Joe public?

He was certainly a bit mixed up about the points on the licence bit and the fine and in actual fact, the plate would have been totally legal if the registration number of the car hadn’t been changed because it was pre September 2001.

I do agree though that the DVLA are taking the piss when they sell certain plates at a premium because they can obviously be adjusted to read something different and then enforce the fact that it is illegal to display the plates in that way.

RANT OVER….Promise

[WayneB]

In North America they dont have this problem as license plates or "tags" as they call them are made by each state or province in Canadas case (usually stamped out in steel by prison inmate labour) and issued through each individual state or provinces vehicle licensing authority.

Its 100% illegal to mess around with them once issued, the only real problem they seem to have is people not mounting front plates in the states that they are required.

The present UK system of allowing plates to be made up by motor factors and sign shops is obviously too open to abuse, giving rise to the problems pointed out in this thread of incorrect fonts, spacing and the use of black screws to alter the look of a particular letter or number, the US system should be implemented in the UK as it would cut out of the current confusion/abuse that exists ATM.

I do think Gordons sons plate looks good with that Eurostyle typeface , striping and logo etc., but it definately is not legal in the true sense so one should perhaps expect some hassle from the coppers when having such a setup even If you are otherwise doing nothing else that involves breaking any more serious laws?

Edited June 21, 2011 by billy fish

[Moxie]

Correct. That's why I couldn't understand this thread at first because the idea of making your own plates over here is so far off the map. If you did that here they'd immediately impound your car.

[Al]

Hi Gordon, I'd be having a major rant as well if I was you. At least you and not Frazer as they look for any reason to hassle the youngsters. Pillocks getting the law a bad name for no good reason. Nothing better to do with their time especially in the case of Frazers easily read basically non defaced number.

I have the Saltire and SCO under it legally on the left so Frazer can at least have that. One of the cars has the european circle of stars and the other not. I also have the dealer name or supplying plate vendor with their postcode centre bottom and the tiny BS number info bottom right. Not used presently but I have also had the line round the outside legally in the past with the same personalised number as on the wife's bus.

Of course the get out that the DVLA have with selling these numbers is you sign to say you will not display incorrectly (other than at shows etc.) At least Frazers number will be exactly the same once you have put on legal plates and not ruined meaning like some.

[fitz]

iirc you can only get road plates from the obvious places, (a garage, halfords, wilco etc) and they will only make you a legal one, if not you have recourse.

you are allowed one of the national flags (welsh, scots, NI, England and the GB flag are allowed) as it no flag, border and no border allowed, must have the name and address of the plate issuer on the plate at the bottom, no slogans etc.

its all for the ANPR camera's and other tech now about.

edit: It is petty in some senses I guess, but where do you draw the line? but at least you have consistancy if its interpreted to the letter.

Edited June 21, 2011 by fitz

[simonb]

The "1" does not look like the legal font one, heaven forbid the ANPR equipment should fail to tax you

[GordonMasson]

Don’t get me wrong, I accept that by the letter of the law, the plate is not the legal font so that’s a fair cop all be it very petty but my gripe is more to do with how the police spend their time.

If someone steals a packet of crisps from a shop then that’s illegal….. if someone holds the shop keeper up at gun point then it’s a serious offence and I want the police spending their time solving the serious crimes……after all we keep hearing that the Police are seriously under resourced and I don’t doubt it so if they don’t have the capacity to resolve all crime then use the resources wisely.

The same goes for motoring offences…. How many cars is it these days that don’t have insurance, tax or MOT… some crazy number as I recall not to mention loads of other serious traffic crimes so I would rather they spent their time concentrating on serious offences rather than petty ones.

And just as a final point, apart from the fact that I am in the wrong and I accept that, I would still think its ridiculous for anyone else being pulled over under the same circumstances so its not just because its me.

Oh and a final, final point….if you do have a plate that’s not 100% legal then it may be worthwhile changing it.

Giving plod a “valid” excuse to pull you over (although I think they can do it without reason anyway?) gives him a better opportunity to check the car and you out.

Anyway it was still petty!!!

I rest my case m’lud

[Laura]

So where do you draw the line at which laws are enforced and which aren't?

Police stop wasting time enforcing number plate laws, a law that isn't inforced is as good as scraped, scrap the law and people change their plates to become unreadable, the car with the unreadable plate is involved in a fatal hit and run, the police can't track down the responsible car and driver.

Now, you know I'm playing devil's advocate and that scenario is a worst case but if the little laws aren't inforced every now and again people will not obey them. If a police officer witnesses a crime of any description and has no other matter (more severe or otherwise) that requires his/her attention then taking action on the crime doesn't seem like a waste of police time to me.

[molemot]

I think laws that aren't obeyed or enforced OUGHT to be scrapped!! We have a whole bunch of them still on the statute book...one that comes to mind is the requirement for every London Hackney Carriage to carry a bale of hay for the horse.....but I understand it is still a requirement. Trying to enforce that would be truly daft. In my opinion, so is the scenario with the number plate as recounted in this thread. If you can read it without difficulty, ought to be OK....under the principle of Wednesbury Unreasonableness, I think it should pass.

[arbell9]

John,

you can argue the law against murder or rape is not obeyed , i dont think we would scrap those would we. If we have a civil disobediance run on a number of laws that irritate us we would end up in legislative chaos. Coppers do enforce the dodgy number plate law, go onto any bike forum and there are plenty of tales of bikers with tiny rear plates been caught and fined. Its one of those laws that if we get caught we dont like. The speed limit law is probably the biggest flaunted law, but getting rid wouldnt make any sense at all.

Al.

[Laura]

If you can read it without difficulty, ought to be OK....under the principle of Wednesbury Unreasonableness, I think it should pass.

If who can read it? A little old lady witnessing a crime involving a vehicle, the ANPR cameras detecting stolen or uninsured vehicles or the CCTV camera operator watching some idiot drunkly climb in to his car?

The whole point of this law is to ensure number plates can be read (no doubt some 'expert' somewhere determined the number plate font and size to be the easiest to read) with ease by all of the above. The problem with subjecting something to being reasonable in this case is you may wish for non-sensible person who has no time to apply his mind to read a number plate, or - more likely - a computer programme which has no sense at all (and before Jonathan steps in the ANPR cameras can cope with some font and size variations but I don't believe it is completely infallible).

Oh, and just for the record the bale of straw thing was repealed by the Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1976. Clicky

[lrg_machine]

ANPR engines are able to cope with various fonts, font sizes and foreground / background colours, but having said that Laura is quite correct in that they are not infallible and in the picture of the number plate on the original post the "1" character could be miss read as a scewed "7" or the "D" as an "O" if the angle of shot was "off" in anyway.

1) You know the plate doesn't meet the "law"

2) You got caught

Result, man up and take the hassle or change the plates.

Edited June 22, 2011 by lrg_machine

[MPx]

The speed limit law is probably the biggest flaunted law, but getting rid wouldnt make any sense at all.

Would to me.....

[GordonMasson]

ANPR engines are able to cope with various fonts, font sizes and foreground / background colours, but having said that Laura is quite correct in that they are not infallible and in the picture of the number plate on the original post the "1" character could be miss read as a scewed "7" or the "D" as an "O" if the angle of shot was "off" in anyway.

1) You know the plate doesn't meet the "law"

2) You got caught

Result, man up and take the hassle or change the plates.

Jeremy......re your points ... see earlier posts!

Yep I have to agree with the fact that it’s the law and that’s it and it looks like the only way to be sure they wont pull Fraser over is to make the plate 100% legal.

Don’t get me wrong, I accept that by the letter of the law, the plate is not the legal font so that’s a fair cop..............

Edited June 23, 2011 by GordonMasson

[molemot]

Alex...I did say that laws that are not obeyed OR ENFORCED ought to be scrapped...no one can argue that laws against rape and murder aren't enforced. Tiny plates would fail the Wednesbury Unreasonableness test....I don't think Gordon's plate does. If you want to make a plate that's readable to EVERYONE, including little old ladies who by implication don't have the sharpest eyesight, then you need larger characters....probably larger than the law demands. The whole of this tale is another example of the pettifogging footling restrictions increasingly placed upon us, all "for our own good"....and thus held up as being impossible to argue against. Individually, these things can be absorbed and don't have a huge impact; however, I have seen so many of these things that, in the end, they start to get you down. It's like Gulliver being held down by thousands of silken strands...one or two don't make a difference, but thousands of them and bit by bit, all freedom is lost. In the end we all end up like Winston Smith.....

Laura...thanks for the update on the bale of hay...I remember 1976 as being a splendid summer which I spent mainly on my boat in the company of various friends and bottles of assorted rum.....must have missed the "Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1976"!! Pity....it was a nice anachronism.

[lrg_machine]

Jeremy......re your points ... see earlier posts!

Gordon

I do apologise, I didn't catch those points, I just saw the other posts about why this is legal and that's not and should laws be changed etc.

[Beady]

spot the difference...

[yeller77]

The first pic has a Delorean in the background.....