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The state of our Society, respect, discipline etc


Kimbers

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Is our Society not only broken but sick as our PM seems to think?

Is there a hard core of oppressed with no hope or are they merely lawless scum waiting for an opportunity to rob and burn as they see fit?

How do we instill back a sense of respect and discipline into these people and those of the future?

I very much agree with the sentiment offered by an advisory council set up to look into this. They said that, more so than at any other time, we have removed respect and discipline from the growth of our children.

Giving kids a direct say in how their school is run is surely deferring to them? Why should they respect their elders when they have to ask them before doing something? You are reinforcing their power over you. A good Manager will listen to their staff but you don't give an administrator power over the Manager!

Likewise not being able to even touch them at school is also just wrong!

In my sons school a teacher has been dismissed because he grabbed a student and pulled him off a 3 year younger kid he was sitting on and beating to a pulp, the older kid then tried hitting him so he held his arms, scratching him with his nails in the process. In the teachers defense he said he was trying to protect the smaller kid. The Council stated that "there can be no excuse for physical contact with a student".

In another case my son was recently naughty and I took his X box away and told him he was staying in his room for the whole evening. He came back with "Our School counsellor says you can't take my things, thats theft and you definately can't lock me in my room!! I'll speak to them and get social services on to you!". Are they now teaching kids how to "get one over" on their parents?

This surely gives the kids a sense of power over authority figures?

Surely discipline begins at home? Yes, of course it does! but you can only shape your kids attitudes while they are there. At school, everything happening and said to them helps shape them. And with the Nanny state we currently have even grabbing your child in a supermarket is frowned upon! Heaven help you if you try and tap them on the bottom in a public place!!

Kids scream at Police "I know my rights, you can't do anything to me" and this is proved when a local 14 year old got his 53rd conviction for shop lifting and common assualt and was given yet another warning.

Add in to this the very well publicised cases of MP's and Police on the take (Expenses scandal and News of the world bribes). These people are meant to be the kids role models!!

Everything we seem to be doing is reinforcing kids power over both adults and authority figures, so is it any wonder that they have lost respect?

I'm not saying that kids should be beaten and teachers give kids the cane. But basic common sense needs to take over here. If a Kid is being violent you restrain them physically. What happens to a kid who gets away with that sort of behaviour when he grows into a strapping 18 year old? You've seen it this week.

Time for a sensible rethink. Bollocks to the EU regulations!

Should we bring back National service?

What do you think?

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Philip Larkin had it right in his poem "This be the verse" ( Bibs you will understand the missing word is missing for an obvious reason)

They f**k you up your Mum and Dad,

They do not mean to but they do,

They give you all the the faults they had,

And add a few more just for you.

It goes on to end in a depressing sort of way but the message is obvious. Sorry mate, but kids ain't for all of us and good luck if you have them and I am sure most are fantrastic and very rewarding on a number of levels but I'd rather have my car and avoid the bollocks nanny state stuff you have to defer to as a parent.

Though this be madness yet there is method in it ( Polonius in William Shakespeare's Hamlet)

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Society is not broken, the majoriety are good people. But it's morals need reawakening.

One of the problems is that you have 2 or more generations in certain areas with the same mentality, I'm always shocked by how these "poor" are able to afford phones, ipods, satallite TV, Ciggarettes, Booze, trendy trainers.

You have one parent families where the Child has never seen it's father. Has never seen an adult go out and do a hard days work. These people used to be looked down at, all you have had over the past 20 years is left wing liberals saying how hard done by they are..

When My father was a child poor was exactly that, you had nothing, Even when I was child in the 70's I can remeber us not having a lot of money, and if you couldn't afford it you went with out and in victorian times you had the work house. Maybe harsh but was reality.

Discapline is not installed from an early age in certain areas. Also due to the number they are not sneered at by there peers as they are doing the same. In the past the community looked down on these people. Violent crime is not dealt with harshley, and minor crime goes unchecked which leads to the more violent. If you stand up to someone who is acting wrong you should expect to be backed up by the majority, but this is not so, therefore you don't incase. Drug laws are a joke, either enforce it harshley or legalise it and govern it properly, at the moment neither happens.

I worked in a Govt funded business it had a no blame culture, which meant no one took the responsability it was just a small sign of what has gone on. You know have a no blame country.

There has been far to much left wing soft soap, If they are incapable of discaplning themselves than it is for the wider community to install it. The Police have lost respect, due to them not actually solving crime or enforceing the law, they are only interested in creating money via fines and easy targets such as motorists. You cannot blame the beat bobby as it stems from the top. Clipping an oik round the ear is not child abuse, but that is what it is portrayed as.

National service would be a good idea, but needs to be carried through properly, and not just as away to top up numbers in afghan and Iraq.

Not all Children are bad and not all areas are bad, but it only takes one rotten apple.

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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Well said Ian . I too believe that having kids is grossly overrated. People do it without taking responsibility with the results we see all around us. I certainly don`t hate kids and of course some people`s whole existence is based around caring for them but it`s still a gamble whether they grow up to love or hate you. If no-one is there for me at the end of my life and I find physical existence intolerable I pray I will have the guts to end it myself, there and then.

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The past couple of days have been pretty worrying and sad times for communities in the UK.

But I have been impressed with the work @riotcleanup have been doing today. Just shows how strong people in the communities are. The arguments will go on about how and why this has happened but for now this restores my faith #oursociety

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Is our Society not only broken but sick as our PM seems to think?

Is there a hard core of oppressed with no hope or are they merely lawless scum waiting for an opportunity to rob and burn as they see fit?

How do we instill back a sense of respect and discipline into these people and those of the future?

I very much agree with the sentiment offered by an advisory council set up to look into this. They said that, more so than at any other time, we have removed respect and discipline from the growth of our children.

Giving kids a direct say in how their school is run is surely deferring to them? Why should they respect their elders when they have to ask them before doing something? You are reinforcing their power over you. A good Manager will listen to their staff but you don't give an administrator power over the Manager!

Likewise not being able to even touch them at school is also just wrong!

In my sons school a teacher has been dismissed because he grabbed a student and pulled him off a 3 year younger kid he was sitting on and beating to a pulp, the older kid then tried hitting him so he held his arms, scratching him with his nails in the process. In the teachers defense he said he was trying to protect the smaller kid. The Council stated that "there can be no excuse for physical contact with a student".

In another case my son was recently naughty and I took his X box away and told him he was staying in his room for the whole evening. He came back with "Our School counsellor says you can't take my things, thats theft and you definately can't lock me in my room!! I'll speak to them and get social services on to you!". Are they now teaching kids how to "get one over" on their parents?

This surely gives the kids a sense of power over authority figures?

Surely discipline begins at home? Yes, of course it does! but you can only shape your kids attitudes while they are there. At school, everything happening and said to them helps shape them. And with the Nanny state we currently have even grabbing your child in a supermarket is frowned upon! Heaven help you if you try and tap them on the bottom in a public place!!

Kids scream at Police "I know my rights, you can't do anything to me" and this is proved when a local 14 year old got his 53rd conviction for shop lifting and common assualt and was given yet another warning.

Add in to this the very well publicised cases of MP's and Police on the take (Expenses scandal and News of the world bribes). These people are meant to be the kids role models!!

Everything we seem to be doing is reinforcing kids power over both adults and authority figures, so is it any wonder that they have lost respect?

I'm not saying that kids should be beaten and teachers give kids the cane. But basic common sense needs to take over here. If a Kid is being violent you restrain them physically. What happens to a kid who gets away with that sort of behaviour when he grows into a strapping 18 year old? You've seen it this week.

Time for a sensible rethink. Bollocks to the EU regulations!

Should we bring back National service?

What do you think?

This all started with the Labour governments social policies in the mid to late 70's, which basically made it possible for certain members of society to exist quite nicely without having to work.

Thatchers policies of the 80's shut down most of British industry , putting even more of the working class on the dole, with little prospect of ever finding a similar type of job to the one they lost.

I have worked hard my whole life and have never expected anything to be given me for free,social policies that reward people for doing nothing are the root cause of most of the problems in the UK ATM.

I can never see Britain having a law abiding , hard working, moralistic society ever again, good though that I was able to witness it back in the 60's to mid 70's, I just see that the goverment will come up with ways of having to control the ever unrully masses.

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Is our Society not only broken but sick as our PM seems to think?

Is there a hard core of oppressed with no hope or are they merely lawless scum waiting for an opportunity to rob and burn as they see fit?

How do we instill back a sense of respect and discipline into these people and those of the future?

I very much agree with the sentiment offered by an advisory council set up to look into this. They said that, more so than at any other time, we have removed respect and discipline from the growth of our children.

Giving kids a direct say in how their school is run is surely deferring to them? Why should they respect their elders when they have to ask them before doing something? You are reinforcing their power over you. A good Manager will listen to their staff but you don't give an administrator power over the Manager!

Likewise not being able to even touch them at school is also just wrong!

In my sons school a teacher has been dismissed because he grabbed a student and pulled him off a 3 year younger kid he was sitting on and beating to a pulp, the older kid then tried hitting him so he held his arms, scratching him with his nails in the process. In the teachers defense he said he was trying to protect the smaller kid. The Council stated that "there can be no excuse for physical contact with a student".

In another case my son was recently naughty and I took his X box away and told him he was staying in his room for the whole evening. He came back with "Our School counsellor says you can't take my things, thats theft and you definately can't lock me in my room!! I'll speak to them and get social services on to you!". Are they now teaching kids how to "get one over" on their parents?

This surely gives the kids a sense of power over authority figures?

Surely discipline begins at home? Yes, of course it does! but you can only shape your kids attitudes while they are there. At school, everything happening and said to them helps shape them. And with the Nanny state we currently have even grabbing your child in a supermarket is frowned upon! Heaven help you if you try and tap them on the bottom in a public place!!

Kids scream at Police "I know my rights, you can't do anything to me" and this is proved when a local 14 year old got his 53rd conviction for shop lifting and common assualt and was given yet another warning.

Add in to this the very well publicised cases of MP's and Police on the take (Expenses scandal and News of the world bribes). These people are meant to be the kids role models!!

Everything we seem to be doing is reinforcing kids power over both adults and authority figures, so is it any wonder that they have lost respect?

I'm not saying that kids should be beaten and teachers give kids the cane. But basic common sense needs to take over here. If a Kid is being violent you restrain them physically. What happens to a kid who gets away with that sort of behaviour when he grows into a strapping 18 year old? You've seen it this week.

Time for a sensible rethink. Bollocks to the EU regulations!

Should we bring back National service?

What do you think?

You should put yourself forward as a Parent Governor, see how it really works

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17 years of Tories (with big riots in 81 and 85 ) and 13 years of Labour (probably missed a few riots by a hairsbreadth) indicate that the deterioration in public standards of behaviour and responsibility is cultural not political. No British Government has ever told parents how to bring up their children (apart from to give them milk and vaccinate them-but you can do that to pets too !) although of course Government policy and economics impacts on families` abilities to do so.

Contrast Italy where for any young person to to be drunk in public is the social equivalent of s*****g yourself in public, so Friday and Saturday nights in town are pleasant. Of course the family unit in Italy is much stronger but so is Socialism as a mass working-class movement which according to the posts above, must somehow mean permanent riots there. The reverse happened in the UK when whole mining communities got closed down and manufacturing went south-bet that didn`t help family life any ! Basically its much more complicated than blaming whoever is in power at the time.

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Another 'state of the country thread' with the same people, all hopping over from another 6 pager thread of multiple paragraph posts of putting the world to rights and bickering, always the same gang, drifting from thread to thread and posting hourly to the point that "If you don't like it, don't read it" essentially means - i'd need to avoid the whole forum!

You have killed it for me by turning general chat into a sad social club. Click back to the first page of general chat and now look at it today, look what you have done, who would desire to log on and read this stuff, why would anyone want to? it's only you same guys that reply to it. Maybe you have no-one outside the internet that wants to hear it hence it's here in such abundance? All i know is it's better not logging on now - because of you.

My first log on for days/weeks and i'm off for ages again. You have sucked the fun and interest out of it for me almost totally.

You guys have a HUGE part in me not being here so often over the past year or so, and therefore, by making ownership less appealing and less important you all equally have a part in me not having a lotus anymore.

Tough but that really is the truth of it for me, well done.

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Instead of whinging, why not start something YOU find interesting???? Your arguments are specious.

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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Paul, I usually agree with you on most things, but not this time.

General chat is only one part of the forum, well outgunned by car related stuff. And I really can't see why everyone discussing current affairs has any affect on what car you currently own? Wasn't that down to having owned every type of Lotus you wanted to and felt lke something new?

I am not having a go, but from what you have previously said I think the criticsm is unfair.

There seems to always be a core group of regulars on here, which I have seen change in the 2 years I have activly been using this forum from its LEF origins. Some due to family or work circumstances, some due to a natural progression in their interests.

Is it coincidence that you have drifted away from the foum at the same time you have drifted away from the brand?

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You should put yourself forward as a Parent Governor, see how it really works

I couldn't believe how many hoops they have to jump through and how limited are their powers to stop unruly behaviour and bullying. After one bully put my autistic son in hospital and got suspended for 1 day because he was "having a bad time in his home life" and " We don't want to effect his academic growth"... The Parent Governors all sided with him rather than the victim. So No thanks!

Paul, I'm sorry you feel that way. I, and many others, see General Chat to be like sitting in a pub with your mates. You talk about everything from the state of the country to what Camera you use, politics to lovely ladies and when you're really drunk you talk bollocks and tell everyone you love them :w00t:

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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I would suggest that your child's governing body does not fully understand what powers they have. I am a community governor of a secondary school and the governors are ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that goes on in school. The school should have a published anti bullying policy and a policy on behaviour and exclusions. Have you asked to see them? Do you know what they say?

These documents should be freely available to parents and have to be regularly reviewed by the governors BY LAW.

I'm not sure what you mean by "how many hoops they have to jump through". I went to a meeting and was formally accepted as a governor. I have had a CRB check so that when I go into the school I am cleared to meet with pupils. I didn't have to jump through any hoops etc.

Note that the school will have a defined governing body structure and if, as you say, ALL the PARENT governors sided with the bully that doesn't necessarily mean that the governing body did. The governing body MUST have LA representatives, community governors and staff governors as well as parent governors. The exact numbers depend on school size.

Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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In regards to jumping through hoops I was talking about the regulations that are constantly being put on them. Was trying to say I can understand sometimes why they can't do something.

In relation to the bully, initially they refused to do anything as the kid had a "social worker" who said it would cause him to "lose his newfound respect for schooling". I was very....strong...to the Head Mistress about my feelings and when I found out he wouldn't so much as even get suspended I reported him to the police for Assault.

Remarkably the decision was then over turned and he recieved a whole days exclusion for taking my son down onto a concrete floor so hard it bruised his hip and trapped some nerves making him unable to walk for a week and missing school for 2 weeks because he was too scared to go back.

I have had similar experiences with my youngest daughter, who did the right thing and shopped in a kid drug dealing and was then hounded out of her education by the girls friends, leaving school with no qualifications despite being very intelligent. Every time we reported the verbal and physical abuse there was always a good reason not to exclude them.

Sorry but I have no faith in the Schools my kids attend to "do the right thing" and protect the "victims".

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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I'm with you on this Tony. I am sure I have recounted this story in another thread, but will do so again. My son was bullied at school over a long period. It was reported several times to the school and the parents of both boys involved. When the boys were questioned by their parents, they both backed each others versions up and then the parents told us our son was making it up. It was also occurring at his school to the point that one day he came home and refused to go back. We rang the school and gave them the reason he was absent. After several days, the principal came to our home and pleaded with him to return to school. (No doubt it looks bad on their numbers reported to the education dept, though I highly doubt they would have listed the reason for his absence as fear of bullying) We said he would not be back until the boys were spoken to regarding it. This was done and the feedback was that the boys were both smirking about it with one of them (let's call him the more mentally challenged) actually laughing at the deputy principal.

The bullying policy of the education department is a joke. It is a piece of paper written to make people feel good about themselves and to be able to stand there and say 'We have a policy.... blah blah'

About as much effect as govt bodies stopping collusion between petrol companies.

So eventually he took matters into his own hands after he grew like a beanstalk. One of them (the dumb one) smacked into him on a bus so my son thumped him. The other boy turned around with my son looking down at him from about 10cm taller and did nothing. The other one he dropped with a golf ball after they rode past yelling faggot at him while he was practising golf. As they were riding off, my son grabbed his three iron from his bag, lined him up and hit this worm burner which went about 120m and hit him in the middle of his back and dropped him off his bike.

You get that... :unworthy:

As they say in Aussie Rules here - "Fair bump! Play on!"

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14533749

Heres an example of what I meant when I say kids think they have all the cards:

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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I got smacked as a kid, wasn't very fun at the time, but looking back it wasn't so bad. Spare the rod and spoil the kid. In my case it was wooden spoons and the likes but still. If i accidentally have kids then a good hiding will be in order for misbehavior, within reason.

there are 13 year olds screwing each other and kids addicted to drugs are getting younger as well, I would say the sooner they get smacked the better...

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Lets face it, none of us are born Parents, and some people are just crap at it and should not be allowed to procreate.

Caught between a rock and a hard place in a catch 22 situation, So its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Your damned if you do, but your damned if you don't so shut your cock!!!!!!!!!!!

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What rocket63 said :animier:

All chav underclasses to be forcibly neutered. If some of the "parents" I witnessed on the estate where I lived for 5 years had applied to adopt, they'd be judged "unsuitable" yet when they get pregnant under their own steam, nobody calls them unsuitable and takes the child off them or forces an abortion. You have to jump through more hoops to adopt a dog from a rescue than to have a kid. Home visits before you adopt a dog, but does anyone check out the home of a pregnant chav? Nope. Population control is an elephant in the room that no politician would ever dare to tackle, yet it's the main problem with the state of our planet today. Attenborough once said "we are trying to adapt the planet to suit the population when we should be adapting the population to suit the planet".

My brother and I got a crack on the thigh when we misbehaved, and we got the old "I'm going to count to 3" warning - by the time mum had reached "2" we were out of the room and behaving :popo:

Edited by L666

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Haha. We count to 5 with my boys!!

I agree. We had various methods of getting us kids into line at my old high school. At the bottom was the "Square" 4 white tiles outside the dinner hall where you had to stand for the whole dinner time, then detention, then the cane! And my old History teacher was a brilliant shot with the wooden board rubber! I'd go home with a board rubber shaped red mark on my forehead and covered in chalk dust! :lol:

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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It's amusing how the politicians are all over this like a rash now, and churning out their new "policies" when disrespect in schools, teen discipline, bad parenting, and corruption of society have been played out in the headlines for years, but nothing was ever really done. It took millions of pounds worth of damage and a few deaths for them to decide to do something. If indeed their actions will do any good.

Photography portfolio - www.rache.co.uk

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