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The EU, Whats happening and what do we do! Poll!


Kimbers

  

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So how do you feel about the EU.

With Greece looking ever more likely to fail, so many bail outs (that we seem to have to help despite not being in the Euro) is it still a good idea or was it a pipe dream from 30 years ago that was bound to fail.

Personally I thought the idea was good but the way it works sucks, with non elected officials running it bringing in rediculous law after rediculous law. Tieing its members up in red tape and countries like Britain paying Billions more in than we get out.

We do 40% of our trade with Europe. Yes, the biggest single partner but only 40% at the end of the day, and, if we weren't in it any more does that mean they would stop trading with us? Of course not!

For me its an organisation that the poorer countries want to be in to get the hand outs from the wealthier countries. Go back to being a free trade organisation I say!!

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Personally I thought the idea was good but the way it works sucks, with non elected officials running it bringing in rediculous law after rediculous law.

Which is exactly how the UK is run right now.

I think the EU is potentially a good thing, however it's expanded too far and taken on too many countries with weak or at best aspirational economies. Whether we're in it or not we're in for a rough ride as if it all goes tits up as so many British banks are in very deep in the EU collective so we need to pull together. Opting out and putting our heads in the sand may be hardline Tory policy but it's not an option.

Policies and red tape aside I think it needs to stick together, or at least the core countries do. Quite what happens to those who choose to leave is beyond me, I don't think we've ever faced a global financial precipice like this before...the cuts Greece are making to deal with their situation have the potential to put the country back into the dark ages, then there's Italy and Spain teetering on the brink. Finally wait until the US situation finally hits the fan, all $14,767,994,491,289 of very sticky debt, rising by the second.

I'm genuinely fearful for what is to come over the next year or two, BUT I do have a solution.... :wine:

Edited by Stirling_Villeneuve

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

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You know that it was mostly a good idea until the politicians and accountants got involved !

The world in general ,just wants to get on with life but what would it be without the two biggest vulture trades;Lawyers and Accountants .........

How would these people survive without the good old man in the street slogging his ass off !The world's cock ups are primarily and should be borne by these particular people....sitting in front of their computers running legal scams!

It is funny how the wool is pulled over our eyes...start a system whereby people can invest and get a better return than what they can provide and you have "a pyramid scheme !" I mean honestly ...what is your stock market! for someone to gain big money ,lots have to loose !

Technically sound ...Theoretically poked !

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can't vote as my answer to the first one isn't there.

EU, it either has to be run akin to the USA where it's one central government (not like the current European parliament) that has some real power and runs everything together, or it will constantly face this sort of imbalance. I doubt I'd ever see a USofE in my lifetime, so having ruled that out due to petty old rivalries going back many centuries we're stuck with a collective. Each country has it's own economic agenda, each with its own issues, so a single currency is a nightmare.

I read an article where some shop keeper was talking about it being a good idea to accept Euros and sterling in his shop, I don't think he considered how often he'd have to re-price one of those figures to keep the prices roughly equal due to exchange rate fluctuations. So, that's out of it. perhaps we are back to separate currencies, perhaps that option of the stronger economies stay in and the weaker ones revert to national currencies. That move could cause a few issues, principally runs on banks as people try to shift from one currency to another to avoid holding a currency that's seen as likely to devalue further.

Can we distance ourselves from the Euro-zone? No. Most of our trade from the UK is done with those countries, so if they go under our trading partners have gone, we're sunk, hence the loan to Ireland being necessary. It wasn't a no-brainer it was a no-choice. If other Euro countries hit the same sort of sticky patch as Greece we in the UK, despite being outside the Euro-zone are in trouble.

The EU will stay in some form, extracting a country form it is a political and financial nightmare (and yes I do mean EU not Euro-zone). The current trend in the UK of devolved parliaments seems counter-intuitive if you want a more stable economy. It's easy for one regional assemble/ parliamentary area to be hit hard by one thing that would only be a bilp to other areas. We have a Welsh assembly, we have a Scottish parliament and that's just Great Britain. If we keep that sort of level than fine have an English parliament, get rid of the UK one and then just have an EU one.

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I don't think this is necessarily about the EU, red tape and bickering aside. The problem is the same as with family finances but on a vastly larger scale, down at the very basic level you can only spend more than you have, if someone else is willing to lend you the money in return for interest. The rate of this depending on the likelihood of repayment, etc etc.

That system in closed loop works reasonably well, those that have difficulty repaying are locked out of the system after investors get a certain amount of exposure. Any sound business would have limitations on expected defaults and keep them well within margins which the business can absorb. However, when you get into hedging bets, huge ponzi schemes and in reality whole nations of individuals who have grown up with the expectation of easy credit, increases in their asset worth (housing) which is so great over x years, that they can release extra equity to effectively increase their spending power. When this tap gets turned off there always was going to be a lot of pain, especially to those who have not known any different.

On an international scale the problem self propogates, very few countries are in a position to lend on the scales required to stabalise countries that have overspent and are unable to meet commitments. In the eurozone and europe every country is in this boat, but because of the scale of the trade inbetween countries, you can't rob Peter to pay Paul, because Paul needs to rob Peter to pay you...So one borrows more money, at a higher cost, to pay a commitment to the other, who is relying on that money, to meet its own commitment.

Once people (and politicians if that isn't mutually exclusive) realise that countries cannot grow constantly at 5% gdp, and developed countries can aggrigate to a normal of growth and decline in points of a percent, then slowly things will come back into touch.

What scares me most, even more than America's 14 trillion dollar debt, is the effect media coverage / the internet has on the markets. Global shares dropping 3% because an economist in Brussels resigns, that man's signature wiped the value of country off the global markets in hours. We have in the UK very depressed consumer spending which does not correlate with the current unemployment figures, i'm not denying people are worse off, or that many (including myself twice) have had redundancies / had their job at risk. But, a two year pay freeze for the average individual, does not result in a marked difference in discretional spending which has been seen in my mind, due to the continued media coverage of the 'great recession' and ongoing economic fears which are self propogating when combined with a lack of consumer confidence...

anyway it's time i put my economies and accountancy to bed...

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There's a tale about a travelling business man who pays a lady of the night (Boy that's an old phrase- you know what I mean) an amount in the local currency, she pays the hotelier, he pays a supplier he owes money to, who does the same and so on and so on. It actually ends up back in the pocket of the traveller but all debt has been wiped clean despite a net movement of cash being zero.

In a way that's where world debt is, country A makes a loan to country B who either pays off a loan to country C who pays off a loan to country A, or Country b spend the loan on good from Country A, or generally much larger circles. It annoys me that we (in the UK) and other countries in Europe have governments wanting to make loans to other countries but the population objects to it but they want the jobs to make the items which will be purchase by the people of the other countries. A bit like BL of the 1970s, it was just a mass job creation scheme, funded by the government. If it hadn't been funded by the government it would have gone bust long before it did and there would have been many more unemployed, being funded by the government (which we all know means funded by the tax payers).

In the great depression Norwich had a very large road built (locals, it's the ring road from Dereham Road to Taverham Road), this was done as part of the government ploy to not have millions of people doing nothing. If you were to suggest it today there would be;

screams from the contractors- taking away our jobs and our work,

screams from the public- it's slave labour,

screams from some of the unemployed- I can get paid for doing nothing so why would I do this,

screams from the EU- you're impacting people's human rights to not work if they don't want to and

screams form others about not paying them minimum wage.

Oh yes, you'd get taken to court for not having put it out to tender to get the most suitable quote which would probably be a foreign company bring in thousands of foreign labour at a higher price.

The cost? probably not much more than the unemployment benefit + other associated costs (job centres, cash injections to industry etc). The cost that stops them doing it or things like it? the electoral cost.

In reality you can get the economy moving again by doing such things but it's not politically palatable however you do it.

Anybody remember a certain episode of Yes Prime Minister? Jim wants to bring back National Service. It removes unemployment and cuts the cost of administering it, it solves many health issues, it supports the stretched army etc etc. Jim gets told something like it being a courageous decision, so then doesn't do it. That's the sort of thing that prevents anything actually getting done by politicians.- the fear of loosing at the next election and several in succession.

Well done to Greece's government for actually implementing changes despite how unpopular they are. I know Greece had no choice but to implement them but many politicians would have done the other thing, got out of power and got somebody else to implement them.

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Complicated isnt it? Or is it? I am no economist but I have my suspicions that there is a lot of background noise somewhere and that we may be being manipulated by those with a lot more money and a lot less thought about the oridnary person on the street than we are being told about

Though this be madness yet there is method in it ( Polonius in William Shakespeare's Hamlet)

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Initially, and correct me please if I am wrong, wasn't the EU meant to be a free trade organisation? Then someone thought it was a good idea to have closer ties etc. But where did the idea come from to let the non elected Bureaucrats run it rather than an elected or representative parliament?

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Seems to me that the model for the USA is a loose association of seperate countries with a common foreign policy; and the European Union is an ever tighter association of what is intended to be convergent countries with their own foreign policies. The Eurocrats control the size and shape of cucumbers allowed to be sold, but do nothing effective when it comes to major threats, be they military or more insidious like illegal immigration. It started as the European Coal and Steel Community. This from Wiki....

"The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible." The means to do so, Europe's first supranational community, was formally established by the Treaty of Paris (1951), signed not only by France and West Germany, but also by Italy and the three Benelux states: Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Between these states the ECSC would create a common market for coal and steel. The ECSC was governed by a "High Authority", checked by bodies representing governments, MPs and an independent judiciary.

The ECSC was joined by two other similar communities in 1957, with whom it shared its membership and some institutions. In 1967 all its institutions were merged with that of the European Economic Community (EEC, which later became part of the European Union), but it retained its own independent identity. However in 2002 the Treaty of Paris expired, and with no desire to renew the treaty, all the ECSC activities and resources were absorbed by the European Community. During its existence, the ECSC had succeeded in creating a common market but could not prevent the decline of the coal and steel industries. It did however set the ground for the future European Union."

Since we have managed to avoid another major European war...which was the starting point of the adventure...it has to be seen as a success. Although I don't like large amounts of EU stuff...it's better than having the tanks rolling west again.

Lord send the current commercial ruination doesn't lead to that....

Edited by molemot

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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I'm an outsider these days, but here's my take from regular visits.

The EU is an ever increasing bureaucracy showing every inclination to swallow itself up it's own ##@@!!

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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Succinct and to the point. Thanks for your input :P

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15090761

Have you seen the above?

80% of this tax will come from Britain!!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Which Britian will have to agree to. Can't see that happening...

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But it is an example of how stupid they are! By announcing this they dropped the FTSE and many European stock markets by several points and wiped billions off banking stock worldwide!!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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  • 1 month later...

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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When more people learn about the scale of the fraud through the news and social media sites, I can see politicians having to back away from supporting Greece, then the brown stuff will really begin to hit the fan...

Its going to get interesting, and very soon!

This book is guaranteed to NOT change your life…but it does mention a Lotus Esprit...

To enjoy this masterpiece, download Martin now. Simples!!!

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http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-15090761

Have you seen the above?

80% of this tax will come from Britain!!

Hope they do this (from article)

The commission said that if the UK vetoed the tax, it would look to implement it in the eurozone.

That would shift the other 20% to London

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I see that Greece have finally decided enough is enough and the PM wants a referendum on the bail out and whether it still wants it, and that has a sub section of "If you don't we withdraw".

So finally a countries Govt listens to its publics opinion and what do they do? Tell him he has to resign!

So much for Democracy.

I remember Brown once said "You vote us in to make the difficult decisions you don't want to make".

NO!! "We vote you in so you can do what we wanted you to do!"

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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I came across this the other day....

How to mend Britain...

Dear Mr Cameron,

Please find below our suggestion for fixing the UK's economy.

Instead of giving billions of pounds to Banks that will squander the money on lavish parties and unearned bonuses, use the following plan. You can call it the Patriotic Retirement Plan: There are about 10 million people over 50 in the work force. Pay them £1 million each severance for early retirement with the following stipulations

:

1) They MUST retire. Ten million job openings - unemployment fixed

2) They MUST buy a new British car. Ten million cars ordered - Car Industry fixed

3) They MUST either buy a house or pay off their mortgage - Housing Crisis fixed

4) They MUST send their kids to school/college/university - Crime rate fixed

5) They MUST buy £100 WORTH of alcohol/tobacco a week ..... And there's your money back in duty/tax etc.

It can't get any easier than that!

Also……….. Let's put the pensioners in jail and the criminals in a nursing home. This way the pensioners would have access to showers, hobbies and walks. They'd receive unlimited free prescriptions, dental and medical treatment, wheel chairs etc and they'd receive money instead of paying it out. They would have constant video monitoring, so they could be helped instantly, if they fell, or needed assistance. Bedding would be washed twice a week, and all clothing would be ironed and returned to them. A guard would check on them every 20 minutes and bring their meals and snacks to their cell. They would have family visits in a suite built for that purpose. They would have access to a library, weight room, spiritual counselling, pool and education. Simple clothing, shoes, slippers, PJ's and legal aid would be free, on request. Private, secure rooms for all, with an exercise outdoor yard, with gardens. Each senior could have a PC a TV radio and daily phone calls. There would be a board of directors to hear complaints, and the guards would have a code of conduct that would be strictly adhered to.

The criminals would get cold food, be left all alone and unsupervised in urine soaked clothing and be occasionally tormented by sadistic staff. Lights off at 8pm, and showers once a week. Live in a tiny room and pay £600.00 per week and have no hope of ever getting out.

Think about this (more points of contention): COWS ! Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that during the mad cow epidemic our government could track a single cow, born in Appleby almost three years ago, right to the stall where she slept in the county of Cumbria? And, they even tracked her calves to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 125,000 illegal immigrants wandering around our country.

Maybe we should give each of them a cow!!

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Following that, it also occurs to me that we are being told that the Euro has collapsed and is dribbling down the drain. Not that long ago, it was €1.45 to the £1...and in 2000 it was €1.90!! So tell me how the present rate of €1.16 constitutes a terminal collapse?

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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