simonb Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Speculation from the slightly less than independent Joe Saward http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/meanwhile-in-lotus-land/ Whilst not a fan of some of the wild ideas, vI think there may be much better stability for Group if they were to allow this management a 5 year cycle to deliver new models (and make them stop spending on motorsport if pennies are too tight) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramjet Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Somewhere on here I'm sure I read that Genii was looking to get out of F1 as they didn't want to keep pouring money into it. I really can't be bothered searching to find the post/article because there seems to be any number of opinions as to what is happening. If Genii was indeed looking to get out, then why are they looking to get back in? Quote All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit. Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others. For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedaSay Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I've been reading obituaries on a lot of things that still exist! Obituaries should only be written very quickly within minutes after official announcement even if this is not the most convenient way! My point is until I read something official that says that DB is out DB is in! Genii wanted out but they realized that they are stuck in cause nobody wants to buy in! Well I Think some people were willing to buy them out but probably at the price they asked! As a result they may as well go all the way and buy the company which is supposedly funding their effort even if it's not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus82 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I wonder though if running the F1 team as Lotus will make it easier to find sponsorship and sell merchandise etc, hence the interest in Genii buying into Group Lotus. I also wonder if its a good thing should it lead to a modified and more profitable version of the business plan being unveiled which doesn't rely on never ending investments from the Malaysian government. Extra focus on making sound profits sooner than later might work wonders in speeding up decision making and reducing wasteful development programmes. If Mr Bahar does go Mr Kalbfell seems to talk alot of sense so I hope he doesn't depart at the same time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVR Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 There is much vitriol in there. I wonder why. Jealous ? Ferrari fan boy ? He can't stand DB, that is clear but why ? This sentence says it all : "who has done a great job dreaming up completely impractical plans for the future of the car company" He is not in a position to know this. Stranger things have happened so I still believe the new mgt could succeed. Risky business ? For sure but if they succeed it will be a major coup. As Lotus fans we should hope for the best and give DB and team some credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibs Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 He's in Tony Fernandes pocket, Joe's articles about Lotus are very biased nowadays and I wouldn't be surprised if they are at least written in part by Fernandes PR team. Quote 88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport Evora NA For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exploded Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Denis, it's not just Joe, it's a whole lot of people (if not all) who worked with Bahar in F1, that hate him. Maybe that says enough about the figure he is? This whole thing is only meant to say that Bahar is on his way out and to get a majority of F1 team owners convinced to let them replace the chassis name. Quote Calypso Rose Rules the World! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutsaboutcars Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Firstly I'm not a Lotus owner, just a fan and I have not met Bahar and base my opinions on what I have read here and elsewhere. My concern with yet another change in leadership is the damage to the brand, product roadmap and potential exodus of skilled management and workers. From what I have read, Proton approved the 5 year plan and the overall budget. Given where the company is today, the Proton team must have known the huge level of investment and the sizeable risk of failure yet they still approved. On that basis it makes sense to see the plan through as from what I can gather the alternative was to sell the Group at a loss or shut the cars division down. There can be no doubt that Bahar arrived and frustrated employees, dealers and fans. Some of his remarks about the current model range were 'Ratner' moments. Yet since then he has reverted some of his decisions and re-enacted the previous management's plan around improvements to Evora, Elise and new Exige. This does show that he has listened and perhaps admitted he was wrong. There is still a lot to prove however, the 5 cars were displayed September last year and since then we are assured that development continues on the new V8, Esprit and Elite for 2013 debuts. We all know developments of this type take years and everyone is waiting to see if Bahar and team can deliver. Which makes me wonder why Proton would give up right now. May be they have done the longer term maths that they should have done earlier and realised that the ROI is just not there at the end of the 5 years. May be it is political and to do with Government elections. Personally, given the investments so far, the new quality Exec team and ongoing work, they should continue until the launch of the Esprit at the very least. One would hope the resale value would be higher as there would be one tangible result from all the money spent. Interesting atrcile here: http://www.autocar.c...AllCars/259496/ Bahar seems to be ok with Geni investment? Is he pulling the strings and looking to get Lotus away from Proton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exploded Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Bahar seems to be ok with Geni investment? Is he pulling the strings and looking to get Lotus away from Proton? I am sure he is pulling the strings, no doubt. Quote Calypso Rose Rules the World! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus82 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) May be it is political and to do with Government elections. Personally, given the investments so far, the new quality Exec team and ongoing work, they should continue until the launch of the Esprit at the very least. One would hope the resale value would be higher as there would be one tangible result from all the money spent. Interesting atrcile here: http://www.autocar.c...AllCars/259496/ Bahar seems to be ok with Geni investment? Is he pulling the strings and looking to get Lotus away from Proton? I think the above are all really interesting points. A cross shareholding deal between Genii and Group Lotus could be good for all concerned. The Malaysian government gets to show that they have an eventual exit strategy to recoup the investment, Group Lotus gets an F1 team, the F1 team gets a more attractive name to encourage sponsors and Proton can continue to be linked to the company for publicity. Did anyone read the article in Autocar Magazine about Lotus (which hasn't appeared on the website)? It has quotes from Mr Kalbfell saying that they need to do much more to sell cars in the next 18 months before the Esprit is launched as sales have collaspsed, he also makes comments about changing the management structure to improve decision making and preventing money being wasted on projects that are later dropped. With this and all the media reports over the last few days I was expecting that a complete ownership change was likely, but waiting for the new Esprit makes much more sense having invested so much so far, and theres only a year to wait. If the new Esprit is a critical success there would likely be multiple suitors wanting to take the business over and reap the rewards. Unless that is the company was expecting current sales to contribute to the development of the new cars? Edited October 10, 2011 by Gus82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 There may be a grain of truth in the story - and this may be the grain Fernandes owns Caterham, and wants to call his Lotus Chassis a Caterham Marussia own (a lump of) Virgin, and want to call their Virgin chassis a Marussia Genii own Renault, and want to name their Renault Chassis Lotus, but realise they dont have a hope, so are implying they have ownership of a lump of Lotus, as a Genii chassis will not add value Pure speculation, but makes sense to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dudes why the fuss about F1 since F1 doesn't sell cars...Porsche/VW doesn't do F1 and they sell cars, Ford/Chevy/Mercedes don't do F1 and they sell cars... No one buys a car because a company wastes it's money on a form of racing no one can relate to... Rally and GT racing is the way to market a brand name... I know I couldn't give a shit who won any F1 race when I bought any of my 40+ cars over the years.. Quote I think it's fast enough…maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedaSay Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 So true! Yet some people seem to think that it's a worthwhile business! They don't seem to realize that the only company doing ok by F1 standards is the one winning championships! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtornes78 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Indeed. I mean, who ever payed attention to those red cars between 1979 and 2000... No one certainly cares abut the Constructor's titles, so 82, 83, and 99 really doesn't count, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedgerley Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) Despite the early doom and gloom, DB does seem to be delivering on his plan which I understand is pretty much on track. Yes it was very aggressive and there will always be questions about the funding given the current economic climate, but he has delivered a spanking new FIA standard test track, a new trim shop and started to build the new Esprit production facility. He's also sold a dozen T125 Exos's (Exii?) The strength in depth and experience of the management team can't be faulted and I doubt he could have recruited them if they didn't believe his plans. He has also proven to be very responsive to market feedback. Witness the change in tack with the Elan, the decision to build their own V8 and the investment that is being ploughed into the current Elise, Exige and Evora lines. The MY12 Evora seems to getting positive reviews: http://www.evo.co.uk...model_year.html TBH, as car guys, I think we should be giving DB the benefit of the doubt despite the political intrigue. And keep our fingers crossed.... Edited October 10, 2011 by hedgerley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandrew Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Equity investors like Genii don't want to get onboard unless they believe the future value of the business means they will get a good return. Likewise, you don't persuade some of the best names in the automotive industry to get on-board unless they believe you have a good chance of success - their reputations are too valuable. Non-financial journalists have a pretty poor record of reporting business deals, namely because they have little technical education nor experience in this area. Tell me that Saward learnt the ropes at Reuters, Bloomberg, the FT or WSJ and I might take him a bit more seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedaSay Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) Hum latest piece from Autocar on our dear Lotus! http://www.autocar.c...AllCars/259509/ It appears that sales are down according to Karl-Heinz Kalbfell and still according to him the management is struggling to make decisions! That kind of declaration is really... uh timely! Edited October 10, 2011 by NedaSay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerch Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Firstly I'm not a Lotus owner, Basic Account 1 posts Name:David Riley Car:Elise Quote Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconic Ride Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 sound of phone ringing in posh Kremlin office... "Privyet, Tony! How's my favourite airline magnate doing these days? Did you get my bill for that last shipment of Jet A? The Siberian refinery is up to full output now, and our Malaysian pipeline deal has exceeded all expectations. Having to route it completely around China was a bitch, but they'll be begging for an offshoot soon enough, the bastards. Let them eat coal, I say." "Ah, Vladimir. Ever the hard-ass businessman. A kindred spirit if ever there were one. Listen, I need a favour. You know that account I keep at the Lubyanka branch of the Bank of Moscow? The secret one that Proton uses to fund my F1 escapades. Well, I need to withdraw the entire amount asap, as I'm going to buy out Ecclestone next week. This name game fiasco has gone on long enough, and I have big plans for Caterham. Proton has decided to bail from Lotus as soon as Gerard makes his move." "You lost me there, Tony. Proton's going to run F1 now? Everyone assumed that you and Proton were at loggerheads this whole time, and now you guys are going to buy out Bernie? Gutsy move, comrade. You saving a place at the table for me and Marussia? Don't be leaving me out in the cold, Tony. You know how I can be when I'm pissed off. Just ask Boris down in the basement of the Lubyanka." "Chill, Vlad. Your chair at the table was reserved a long time ago. Just don't be turning off that pipeline spigot without talking to me first. When Brent crude reaches $200 a barrel, Branson will be slinking our way in full tail-tuck position, begging for a dram of Russian fuel at more reasonable costs. We've got that Limey gascon right where we want him. Air Asia will rule the world!" "A most excellent plan, Tony. I look forward to the day Caterham buys out Ferrari and paints all their pastamobiles green. I'm going to put a webcam in Enzo's grave, just to watch him roll, har har." "Hey, I gotta go. A little bird told me that I should pay special attention to Q1 in Korea. Heard there's going to be quite a show when Vettel takes the track. Later, dude." Quote Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerch Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Ah but ye jest,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or do you Quote Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconic Ride Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Cue "credits" soundtrack to Dr Strangelove.... Quote Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted October 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Hum latest piece from Autocar on our dear Lotus! http://www.autocar.c...AllCars/259509/ It appears that sales are down according to Karl-Heinz Kalbfell and still according to him the management is struggling to make decisions! That kind of declaration is really... uh timely! from that article:- The £40k V6-powered Exige S, also new at Frankfurt, is another model that will bridge the gap to the Esprit, Lotus believes. “With 350bhp and 1080kg, who else has such a hot performance model at this price?” said Kalbfell. Well sadly not even the Lotus will offer that performance at that price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutsaboutcars Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Basic Account 1 posts Name:David Riley Car:Elise OK hands up.... I was looking to buy an Elise and then ended up with an (old) Boxster. Long story which I'm sure a Lotus Forum won't be interested in. Still a massive Lotus fan and hope to be able to afford an Evora in a couple of years... subject to Economic recovery and bonus. Sat in the 2012 Evora at the Frankfurt show the other week and thought it much improved, interior quality has come on leaps and bounds but still not up there with the competition. What was interesting was the hard sell from the team on the stand... they were trying to book people up for test drives left, right and centre. Exige looks promising although on the public days they weren't letting people get that close. Apologies for taking things off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbers Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Simon The most telling part of that interview is right at the start: "Former BMW executive Karl-Heinz Kalbfell was drafted in late last year to mentor Lotus CEO Dany Bahar....." 1. Why employ someone for a senior position who can't make decisions and needs "Mentoring"...i.e. teaching his own job 2. This must mean Proton were worried about DB performance 3. Why not just employ Mr Kalbfell and save loads of money??????????????? Quote Possibly save your life. Check out this website.http://everyman-campaign.org/ Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedaSay Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 ^^^ What he said +1 !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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