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My Kids Teachers are Going on Strike


Kimbers

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Tabling the "take a teacher to lunch, she (he) deserves it" line of thought for the moment, I reluctantly wade into the deep doo doo of "the economics of 'strikes' theory and analysis." I know from several years on this forum that I will be heavily outnumbered in what I have to say about it, but every thread needs a whipping boy. It permits the rightious among us to properly vent.

In general, the labor market is made up of business owners (or government entities) and the workers they employ. The business expects to make a profit selling whatever widgets or services they provide to their customers. A portion of the revenue generated goes to maintain (sourcing raw materials to build the widgets, pay the light bill, etc.) or expand the business itself, and the remaining revenue is allocated to taxes, the owner(s)' paycheck(s), and the paychecks of his (or hers) employees. The "profit margin" will vary according to numerous variables, such as the cost of the raw materials at a given point in time, the quality and desirability of the widget or service produced (and hence its price), and the economic climate in which it is sold ("good times, bad times"). The cost of labor is a negotiable variable, and depends on many factors: the skills of the worker (degree of training or experience, etc.), the number of available workers possessing the specific skills needed from which to choose your employees, how willing those with the requisite skills are to come work for you (influenced by location, salary offered, benefits, etc.), what the employer across the way has to offer, and similar factors.

A deal is struck, a day's wages for work done is accepted, and everything is hunky dory. For a time.

And then inflation rears its ugly head. People expect their income to rise accordingly. Most expect their income to exceed inflation over the long haul, either through raises or advancement (i.e., greater responsibility) within the company/governmental agency. The employer can voluntarily provide these pay increases, either because the business is doing well, or (in increasingly rare cases) personal, corporate, or governmental largesse. In the latter case, holding one's breath is ill advised.

In many cases, at some point the worker bees begin to sense that their work is worth more than the honey pot is coughing up. They become dissatisfied with the way things are progressing, and begin to resent their diminishing life style. The question now arises: Can the company or governmental entity I work for afford to remedy the situation? Is the boss sitting on a pile of cash that might be more equitably distributed? What is my fair share based on my level of productivity? In short, am I being underpaid for the work performed in the context of the current economic environment?

Each "side" will tend to favor that which benefits them most. That is, of course, human nature. But every now and then a true breaking point is reached, and the mood of the working stiff changes to one of gross dissatisaction. Something has to give, and verbal entreaties to management fall on deaf ears with increasing frequency. A line has been crossed, and labor now looks at the "self help" option: The Strike.

No one likes to see it happen, not management, not the customers, and least of all the workers themselves. The bringing about of the complete cessation of one's income is not an action to be taken lightly. And the potential for damage to one's very place of employment is high. Customers can be expected to go elsewhere, and they tend to have long memories. Striking is a means of last resort. It is an act of desperation, taken when no other solution seems in the offing.

But without the legal threat (in those industries that permit it) of withholding one's services, the pleas of labor often go unanswered. The real controversy now comes to light. Is the business being struck in a position to enhance the pay and benefits of its workers or not? To put it mildly, opinions will vary. Management will claim they have not the wherewithal necessary, customers deeply resent being inconvenienced and don't care, and labor obviously feels otherwise or they would not have "walked."

So, oftentimes, the courts step in to stabilize the situation (or not). Mediation groups come out of the woodwork in attempts to broker a deal. If enough time goes by the linear descent into a legal morass goes geometric. Strikes are not fun. They are exceedingly unpopular.

But they are the only true "hammer" that labor has when all else fails. And that is why they are permitted by law in so many industries in so many countries. Without them the potential to return to the "robber baron" days of yore are high. If negotiation alone cannot achieve resolution to perceived imbalances in compensation, then alternative methods must be brought to bear. Otherwise you may as well just bend over.

Though I worked for three decades in an industry where "self help" was an available option, I was fortunate enough to have never walked a picket line. But within that industry my company was an exception to the rule. They were able to pay their workers very good wages for 99% of my career. In the end, even they succumbed to the vagaries of world wide economics, and declared bankruptcy, from which they exited after I retired. But during the bankruptcy proceedings they were able to terminate my pension plan. Did they really have to do this? I will likely never know. It's water under the bridge now, and I've moved on. It was "a good ride," and I have no regrets.

Does my lack of actual strike experience disqualify me from rendering an opinion on the matter? It's your call. If you need a target I am here to serve.rambo.gif

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Most people work extra time for no extra, I certainly have and do. I certainly used to work a longer day then then the 7.30 - 6.00pm and I was not paid any better than a teacher. And I got 25 days holiday and a poorer pension package. If they are so bloody busy how comes so many can do private lessons etc? And how comes so many manage to travel so much in the holidays, I thought they were snowed under with marking?

The majority of teachers are lazy, and self centred with the vast majority being left wing. If they don't like it do something else, but as has been pointed out in the Telegraph comments, no one wants them as the very teachers who moan tend to be the ones with micky mouse degrees and the lazy attitude. A vast majority have gone School, Uni, Teaching, never having worked in the real world.

Regarding Public sector strikes there is a vast difference between some poor sod cleaning the streets for a living and a teacher with a quite generous package.

Now where are my ear plugs?

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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Okay, Look. I've been away with work for nearly a week now. (No extra pay mind you) and on a little booze cruise, so only just picking up on this ever expanding thread.

I stated, quite categorically, that it was the fact that I had been told to arrange time off work or pay for childcare that was annoying me.

Paul. We have been mates for some time now, but being called a cretin doesn't go down too well.

I have several mates and one very good friend who's a high school teacher. Several of you act like we don't know what teachers go through.

To all the teacher supporters, great. Yes they do a good job, I agree! I would hate to teach kids today. But is it really any different to virtually any other job? We all have hardships to go through. I have an easy life but yesterday I started at 5am and finished at 8 at night, drove 500 miles. Tomorrow I start at 5am finish at 10pm driving 600 miles+ then I am away, 2 days away from my family. I don't get any extra recompense. Its part of my job.

I am sorry that teachers and other civil servants are having their pensions cut. Especially as my wife Wendy is one of those suffering. But in these times of Austerity we are all suffering. If you don't like it you could always leave the profession? Start a private sector job with a pension worth £20 a month more than you have been paying in for 30 years. With 20 days holiday a year, easy redundancy, no rights till you have worked there a year and no union to protect you! Sound good? Hmmmm.

To answer some other points. My wife works 14 hour shifts (2 unpaid on handovers) she is elbow deep in sh*t, blood, p*ss, Oozing wounds, puss and blood. She has resussed 3 people alone this week. Wendy gets 25 days holiday (not 80) and even then gets called in if she is at home. Last week she did a shift where didn't even get a drink or any food, she was so busy and they were so short of staff. Sometimes she comes home, throws herself into my arms and sobs her heart out at the things she's seen or done. She does all this for £23,000 a year so don't come with the "Teachers only earn £30k" crap! However, its also what she wants and has chosen to do therefore she doesn't moan or complain....she leaves that to me cause I'm so good at it smile.png

Dave, thanks for the offer but if I wanted to be a teacher I would be.

As for going on strike, I agree everyone should have their right to strike for better terms. But right now everyone is worse off and by striking they automatically make all of us worse off, as we have to find childcare or use one of our precious 20 days holiday to stay at home.

My issue is not with what they are doing its how they are going about it.

I won't be commenting again. I've said my piece.

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Mmm...

Had forgotten this thread as quickly as i left it, but Vicki said Kimbers was upset at being called a Cretin so i've come back, although as my previous lack of interest or belief in the content may have hinted, i have not read any of the long multi paragraph posts since my last, and intended only visit, all partial and well informed stuff i'm sure.

It's your right to be Naive Kimbers, I'm naive about many things myself, I'm just not about to start a thread on them as i'd look like an absolute cretin.

As you can see, I said that if I started such a thread then in fact I would be a Cretin, i did not call you a Cretin, but said that I could be, had i done the same as you.

smile.png

Did your teachers not teach you to read?

harhar.gif

Like you fairly (and very wisely i might add) said a while back, it's a 'pub for people that can't get to the pub', which as someone that goes out, i'm really very happy about, as nobody really wants to finish a days work then stand at the bar listening to long 'stated as fact' opinion driven speeches, clapped by a small gathering of guys that meet up to 'put the world to rights', there are pubs like that in town - pubs i don't go in! There has to be a reason for me to want to sit at the laptop, log on, and read this stuff.

Anyhow, i did not call you a Cretin, i called you Naive, but then went on to call myself Naive.

See, Two negatives is a plus!

biggrin.png

Honestly mate, you are nearly as big a w4nker as me...

Edited by Paul C
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I suppose a w*nker is better than a cretin, at least it's an honest :P

Paul, I know how you feel about my posts when it comes to politics, economy etc. But I genuinely enjoy talking about things and hearing other's views....even your extremist anti-view views.rambo.gif

As for teachers, I am sitting at home instead of being out on the road selling cars and doing my bit to get the economy going. Nuff said!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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What about the people sitting at home who should be having operations because NHS workers are on strike. Over 5000 operations cancelled.

Why is it always teachers that people complain about??

As it happens my wife's school is working with children in - no staff are striking.

Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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Because Teachers are the ones who moan the most, a group of Teachers are called a "Whinge" ;)

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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  • 3 months later...

Sorry to drag this up again.

Just watched an Interesting program on ITV tonight regarding public ( not just teachers ) vs private sector workers & basically the public sector worker is still better off in every aspect including better life time earnings which has always been the public sector argument for better pensions / holidays etc (i.e. they earn less so deserve more benefits to make up for it )

In my opinion we are all finding it hard, some more than others but most private sector workers do not dare to go on strike.

The self employed ( like me ) cannot go on strike & I'll be working until I drop the way things are going !

We now have some union bloke ( the name escapes me ) suggesting more strike whilst the olympics are being held !

I feel the public sector worker should realise that we, as a country need to reduce our deficit for the sake of our children as they are the ones who will suffer most if we dont. We just cannot afford ( & looking at it, have never been able to afford ) to carry on the way we were going. We, as a country have been living way beyond our means & it has now caught up with us.

I was gobsmacked when a public sector worker friend of mine told me she had been ill whilst on holiday & was able to claim this time as sick leave & take another weeks holiday again ! When I was an employee, if I was sick on holiday it was tough ?

Welcome to the real world public sector, accept the envitable & pull together to get us out this mess faster.

Just my opinion of course.

Phil.

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Its just my opinion too Phil but have you stopped to consider what the richest thousand people in our country could do with the £395.8 billion (Figure The Dail Telegraph) they have stashed away ? (ie a third of the deficit). They are not in the public sector.

They are SO not in the public sector ! At all. And then some.

So when you assert that "we" were living way beyond "our" means and must "all pull together" to get out of this undoubted mess, I think that you must surely bear the above statistic in mind when attributing irresponsibility.

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Whilst I agree that some public sector workers have it much easier than private sector I can't help but think about my wife and her Nurse friends.

they haven't had a pay rise in 2 years and its extended to another 2 in future. Thats a 20% drop in her salary. Add to that the fact that recent "initiatives" have added more work to the already understaffed nurses, ensuring that they have to do a minimum of 2 hours a day unpaid just to catch up with paperwork and havndovers after thier shifts have finished and it looks even worse!

Then the cut in pensions means Wendy will have to work and extra 5 years and all that for a 25% drop in her pension. And I can guarantee you here and now there no way she can do the heavy lifting, turning etc over 60, so whats she meant to do?

She will leave very shortly, like a third of experienced nurses already have on her ward and another third will be leaving with her.

I'm sorry, but some council staff and others DO have it easy and SHOULD be suffering with the rest of us but our trained health professionals and emergency services seem to be taking the brunt of this and its not right!!

(Still think the same about teachers though....sorry).

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Its just my opinion too Phil but have you stopped to consider what the richest thousand people in our country could do with the £395.8 billion (Figure The Dail Telegraph) they have stashed away ? (ie a third of the deficit). They are not in the public sector.

They are SO not in the public sector ! At all. And then some.

So when you assert that "we" were living way beyond "our" means and must "all pull together" to get out of this undoubted mess, I think that you must surely bear the above statistic in mind when attributing irresponsibility.

Hi, I hear what you are saying but what would you want the government to do. If these people have 'earned' ( maybe not the right word ? ) or amassed a fortune legally through hard work running businesses, employing people or otherwise are we now to say to them

'well done with your success but could you now hand over a large proportion of your wealth to pay off the countries debt'

If we did that a lot of of these mega rich would leave the country taking their wealth with them.

To me the big picture is that the public sector has grown far too large over the last 20 or so years with a lot of it run very inefficiently with the presumption the money would keep rolling in.

I have friends who worked for the local authority carrying out maintenance in social housing, in the past they were given a job to do & a time to carry out the job ( change a door say at 3 hours ) they would do 6 of these in an 8 hour day & be paid 18 hours for it, it was madness !

They though it was great but how long did they expect it could go on ?

They have now been taken over by a private company & all this stopped ( it had to or the company would have gone bust ) but they were all up in arms about the fact that if they do 6 doors now in a day they only get paid for 8 hours, my response was 'welcome to the real world !

I'm not saying that all the public sector is like that, far from it but I just feel that generally people in the public sector are still better off than those in the private sector that are basically paying for them, people in the private sector are feeling the pain too, more so, but by & large are just accepting things are tough & just getting on with it.

The program last night backed this up.

My Sister is a nurse & I agree they are under paid as are many other proffessions in the public & private sectors but I don't think the way out of this mess is to go on strike.

Savings need to be made or our country will go the same way as Greece, virtually bankrupt.

Regards, Phil.

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Just to play devils advocate on a couple of points...

I was gobsmacked when a public sector worker friend of mine told me she had been ill whilst on holiday & was able to claim this time as sick leave & take another weeks holiday again !

This has been the case for every private company I've worked for as per the Working Time Directive introduced by European and UK courts.

I have friends who worked for the local authority carrying out maintenance in social housing, in the past they were given a job to do & a time to carry out the job ( change a door say at 3 hours ) they would do 6 of these in an 8 hour day & be paid 18 hours for it, it was madness !

At least they've finally stopped it! When your bill from one of the largest UK home and business energy suppliers" (a private company) next goes up remember they do exactly the same thing and you're still paying for it. They currently employ around 15000 people and I know one of them that gets paid a full days wage but manages to be home by lunch time most days due to the out of date way their workload is decided. Lord know how many out of that 15000 are on the same system.

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Hi Laura,

I have no experience of larger private companies but as you say it a Working Time Directive introduced by European and UK courts, again these people seem to think money grows on trees.

With regards your point on energy bills, at least I have a choice on who I pay for this product of the many companies out there, If I don't like it I take my custom elsewhere, with public sector we have no choice, tax is deducted & spent on our behalf.

The basic fact is that many public sector departments would not survive if they had to run as a private business, they would go bust because the cost more money to run than they earn.

I know this doesn't work for teachers & nurses etc but the many others wasted ( & still waste ) money like it was going out of fashion.

I'm not a big lover of any political party but it would not make sense to me for any party to cut spending, increase taxes & bring in austerity measures to win popularity, so if the coallition are doing this it must be because they feel it is the only way to get us out of this mess. Time will tell I suppose but it is the same as a household budget, if you get into debt of the type our country faces at present the best way out surely is to cut back spending & waste on things that you can do without not go out & borrow more money & hope things get better ?

It's the same with pensions, many experts have said the public sector pensions cannot go on as they are, we cannot afford it ? The same reason most private sector final salary pensions have closed.

The simple fact is we had it great for quite a while but we were living on borrowed time & now it's caught up with us.

Regards, Phil.

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As we all know, nurses work too hard for too little money but the NHS emply over 1m people, the 3rd largest employer in the world.

Inefficient? You'll struggle to find worse.

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Slightly off topic but linked to the "who pays for the public sector" argument as well as the recent banker bashing bandwagon in the press. Plus all the screams of "make the rich pay their fair share and all that", this makes very interesting reading.

http://www.thisismon...income-tax.html

Think about it - the entire welfare state, the NHS, defence of the realm, education and so on is utterly dependent on the tax raised by less than half the working population. A third of all income tax raised - £45B - comes from 1% of the working population. That's 308,000 people, those on the current (supposedly temporary) 50% tax rate. I am proud to be part of the 5% of the working population (40% tax bracket) that raises 34% of all income tax.

And this is quire revealing about the debate on banker bonus's -

Once you factor in national insurance, for each £1m paid as a bonus the employee receives £480,000 and the Exchequer gets £658,000.

Some of my more 'left leaning' colleagues simply don't see the logic - if we are not careful we will kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Its like beating my head against the proverbial brick wall. One could easily argue (at the risk of getting flamed) that the rich are already paying significantly more than their fair share of tax and whether we like it or not the country simply cannot afford to p**s them off!

Edited by hedgerley
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Think about it - the entire welfare state, the NHS, defence of the realm, education and so on is utterly dependent on the tax raised by less than half the working population.

The govt's income comes from a variety of taxes; corp tax, vat, export duty, stamp duty, inheritance tax, capital gains tax,petrol tax and so on.

Public sectors workers, the unemployed, they still pay tax from the money they get from the govt. It's like a cash round robin!

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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This explains nicely who pays proportionally what

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-15819873

HOw much you get back vs what tax you pay

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-15819872

Nice explanation here: http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-16744819

Tax breakdown for £25,500 salary

  • £2,080 Pensions and Benefits (including £212 on Housing Benefit and £296 on Incapacity Benefits)
  • £1,094 on the NHS
  • £824 on Education
  • £339 on Defence
  • £160 on the Police
  • £44 on Prisons
  • £92 on Roads
  • £71 on Railways

And what the average family blows its money on:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/family-spending/family-spending/family-spending-2011-edition/family-spending-2011-pdf.pdf

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As we all know, nurses work too hard for too little money but the NHS emply over 1m people, the 3rd largest employer in the world.

Inefficient? You'll struggle to find worse.

Actually NHS is the 7th largest employer in the world.

1. US Department of defense (3.2 Mil)

2. Chinese Army (2.3 Mil)

3. Walmart (2.1 Mil)

4. McDonalds (1.7 mil)

5. Chinese National Petroleum Corporation (1.7 Mil)

6. State Grid Corporation of China (1.6 Mil)

7. NHS (1.4 Mil)

8. Indian Railways (1.4 Mil)

9. China Post Group (900,000)

10. Hon Hai Precision Industry (800,000)

From here

Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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Does it make a difference to my point?

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Does it make a difference to my point?

Absolutely not!

If you look at that list it probably applies to the majority. Most are public sector.

Walmart and McDonalds are the exceptions and McDonalds is dubious anyway as they operate on a franchise model.

Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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Under Mrs. Thatcher, the Higher Rate tax...which used to be known as Super Tax..was reduced from 83% to 40%. Unfortunately, the salaries of everyone coming into the range of Higher Rate tax had been, over the years, set at a significantly elevated level...so that the recipients would get enough of their pay to make their ascent of the corporate ladder worthwhile. Halving the tax rate effectively doubled their disposable income...and with the extra money, they went out and bought things. Bigger houses....more consumer goods, etc. This kick started the upward spiral of house values....and, since consumer goods were no longer being made in quantity in the UK, the money spent on them went abroad and did no end of harm to the balance of payments.

Now, it seems, there is a proposal to go back to the Super tax days. I wonder if we'd have been better off allowing the banks to fail; now the criminals who got us into the current state are still doing very nicely, thank you, with their salaries and bonuses and assorted perks.....their misdeeds having to be paid for by the guiltless rank and file...as ever.

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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  • 1 year later...

Here we go again. More strike action. Now parents are being fined if they take their children out of school for holidays I wonder if Teachers will be fined for the strike action over any days off?

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut!

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