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One rule for us...


Bibs

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The UK Police can only ever police by consent of the public. For example, The Met has only 31,000 officers (some of those Specials and PCSO's), to Police 7.6 million people. If they didn't want to be Policed then they won't be (Example is the riots).

As an ex officer, it does concern me a little that so much criticism has been raised here without a single voice in support.

I'm not saying that you are wrong in some instances. I agree there are some officers who are only in it for the warrant card or uniform. I personally have seen a few on a power trip, but for every officer who isn't what he should be, there are several that are good and a few that are outstanding.

Lets not forget here:

1. Without the Police everything you moan about, kids running amok, cars getting damaged, idiots driving into you etc, would be much worse

2. They have a thankless task as they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

3. Police Officers are just normal people doing a job that they definately don't get paid enough for. They take abuse all day, get paid around the same as a teacher (less in some cases) and daily put their lives on the line. In a year I was assualted in the job 3 times, 2 resulting in broken bones and one a long hospital stay.

4. If you get burgled or someone is threatening you with a knife, who you gonna call? By all means errode their powers of arrest but then don't complain when they tell you they can no longer come help you.

If you do something wrong expect to be spoken to. Much of the time if you admit it and apologise many will let you off with a warning.

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Guest surferphil

If it wasnt for the police a certain person who has been harassing my mother in law and deliberately vandalises cars out side his house would have stopped, sadly the police protect him and did their best to gather evidence to arrest me. They failed.

I also know of officers who entered a friends home with out a warrant and dragged him off to the police station, where 4 of our finest kicked the shit out of him and then realised him the next morning with no charge. He committed no crime and is not violent.

I have a lot of reasons why I have no faith in the police and some reasons why I do and they are all from experience.

A 50/50 chance of the police doing their job is a bad statistic.

The police protect these things we moan about and don't stop them, that is the main problem I have. Of course we need a decent police force, but we don't have one. IMHO

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Here you go Bibs .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY27OM_-7oE&sns=fb .............. this'll even things harhar.gif

Actually, the point is being missed here. While the copper is not dealing with this very effectively. The gutter vermin cyclist jumped a red light and thinks that by being an arrogant know it all he can evade the law. If he had been hit by a car driver when he was mid junction the I know who would be on the receiving end of all the problems from the law. The copper would have been better in giving some "words of advice" but the bigger question is why the road traffic act does not apply to the road tax avoiding, law abusing, lycra wearing Ar**holes that infest the roads and do things like hanging on to the spoiler of my car for a "tow" away from the lights and wondering why motorists get upset.

Twitter @radioRedwards

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Rick and Kimbers....see my post #21! I've just culled this from the splendid "Inspector Gadget" blog...

"Harriet Harman speaking about the fact that the rioters blame the police for the shoplifting riots in London this summer:

“What is clearly needed is a targeted programme of community engagement and police training to improve the relationship between young men and the police”

Here is Inspector Gadget’s (probably rather less expensive) guide to improving the relationship between young men and the police:

When you are stop-searched by a police officer, you should:

1. Stop

2. Be searched

3. Either – the police having found nothing illegal – go about your business and have a nice day

or – the police having found stolen property, illegal drugs or a prohibited weapon on you – get nicked.

That is the sum total of the ‘community engagement’ lesson for today. Your relationship with the police, if you have nothing illegal on you and you behave as suggested above, will last about six minutes.

There is no need to suck your teeth, call out the rest of the street, flip out three fingers of your right hand and shake it in a kind of weird threatening gesture, continually shout about harassment, call the police officer nasty names and shuffle your feet whilst rolling your shoulders like a boxer and refuse to cooperate.

You see, the thing is, unlike Harriet, we actually know the game that is being played here. Angry young men deliberately make the stop-search process hard for themselves and for us as a diversion.

Either they have something illegal on them, they want to make a fuss so we won’t search them when they have something illegal on them or they simply hate us because, gulp, we are the only people who ever say ‘No’ to them and who will not be diverted by the subsequent tantrum.

There really is very little more to it than that. I don’t buy the theory that it’s not that they get stopped, it’s how they are treated when they are stopped. I don’t buy it because over the years I’ve witnessed so many searches where the police officer never even gets the chance to speak before the bad attitude starts.

These are people who misbehave. They misbehave in school, they misbehave at home. They misbehave on the streets. They cause problems for their parent, for their teachers, for each other and for you and me. Police officers are the only people capable of saying ‘No’ to these people and they don’t like it.

It’s no more complicated than that. I make no apology for sounding grumpy about this, but I’ve had enough of people who have never tried to actually deal with these people telling us how to do our job. It’s why we are in such a state in the first place."

I have worked alongside Special Branch at airports for years, and they have always been good chaps. I have also encountered the archetype bullying cretin wearing a Police uniform...it's a fine line to tread, and some of them seem to take a twisted delight in persecuting the aggrieved party. They do what they can, and not what they should.

Edited by molemot

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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I've had no direct dealings with the Police, but on driving around Norfolk quite a bit for a previous job I saw a lot of the local police about. I gave them no reason to bother me, and they didn't. They were always about quite a bit, and would happily park up on the slip roads to the A11 and pull anyone excessively speeding, not hawking out for the person that edged 75 on an overtake. More importantly I've seen them many a time helping a broken down motorist or someone with a broken tyre - the other half of their public service task. It really depends where you are and who you deal with, every force is going to have some jumped up individuals, they'll also have some excellent and curtious officers.

As a younger individual, I must say i'm upset and astounded at the attitude many of my kin have towards the police and authority in general. I don't know whether it is the something for nothing culture or what. I'd have no issue being politely stopped by an officer for a routine check, I spend a lot of money insuring my car and making sure it is roadworthy. I have nothing to hide and don't think its hilarious to waste their time by claiming i'm called mickey mouse. I work in IT and treat my colleagues asking for help with decency and respect, I don't walk up and wet myself when they've forgotten their password or the power cable has fallen out the back. I wouldn't be expected to be able to do their job so why should I expect them to be able to do mine. The amount of times i've watching someone on roadwars or the like talk themselves into an arrest, when some public decency and apology would have seen the issue last 5 minutes and they'd be on their way...

surely i'm not the only one to think this?!

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Richard,

I don't have an issue with being politley stopped etc. It is the fact that they forget they do not make up the law, they are employed to enforce it. But over a number of years this seems to have consisted of issuing fines for otherwise law abiding citizens, whilst real trouble makers get away with crime.

I have an issue with not being able to get them to look into issues when requested and being treated like an idiot and given the run around. Their institutional arrogance as a force (essex) wears thin. I have had an issue that has been going on for over a year, and have now pushed it to my local counciller who is having the same problems with a lack of accountability. I have given the sgt involved enough rope to hang himself, and will know gladly kick the stall away.

As I have said before I have friends who are at senior levels within two different forces, and there views are pretty much the same as mine.

The officer in that clip just seems incapable of doing his job. I have no idea if what the cyclist says is correct, but neither does the officer.

The UK force is not as corrupt as many round the world, but is certainly not like heartbeat!

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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Guest surferphil

Richard, all you needed to write was:

"I've had no direct dealings with the Police"

You can't have an opinion of something real by watching TV. We are all talking from experience.

My wife detests the police, having to deal with the police professionally for 10 years as a Barrister.

The opinion that 'people' or 'the youth' should act in a certain way is not realistic. The Police should act in a certain way as they are paid to do so as professionals, if they can't behave themselves then how can you criticise anyone else? It's like the Police complaining that they have a job to do.

Wylie people will be as they are, that's who they are, but we don't want them wearing a Police uniform. The problem with the police cannot just be blamed on misbehaving, naughty boys in the street. The problems within the police is what we dislike. Social disorder is not the subject, the subject is 1 rule for them and another for us. The police officer on camera is lying and violent, you think this is how it should be?

If this is then what do you expect people who are not braking the law to think when they get Ego Cop pulling you over and goose stepping towards you.

I got pulled for accelerating my GPZ9R faster than Chips on their crappy BMW Pan Europe's (didn't break the speed limit)

I also got pulled for driving a car: "its got stop me written all over it" the plod said to me, genius! No charge and no crime just letting me know what he thinks of my car.

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Sorry Phil but your wifes in the legal profession and hates the Police? Now theres a turn up for the books!

If you had seen in court what I have, an obvious sexual predator getting away scott free because the verbal beating that the Barrister gave the victim upset them so much they refused to give evidence anymore, then you too may be on the other side. (It took 6 more victims before he was finally put away).

I've said Police aren't perfect, many times their hands are tied. They are obliged to do certain things to hit govt targets. They don't like it!

"Its got stop me written all over it". I would like to think that there would be a reason for this. If someone stole you pride and joy and the Police saw this young man in your car and let him drive away from them "Well, it had stop me written all over it but because of those new regulations we aren't allowed to pull people over if we just think its illegal or stolen" you wouldn't be very happy now would you?

I got pulled several times in my Lotus's. Not once was I bothered. I was legal, had insurance and wasn't breaking the law (except once when I took my punishment, apologised and went on my way with a warning). Once they even apologised for following me into a car park because they "Wanted to look at the car". They spent 10 mins talking about the Esprit and its history and then with a cheery "Cheers mate", went on their way.

Right now the Police need all the support they can get. With cut backs and increasing call on them, its a very hard time to do a thankless job. As I said earlier, for every bad story theres 10 good ones, only bad news travels swiftly and good news doesn't travel at all!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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I would like to think that there would be a reason for this. If someone stole you pride and joy and the Police saw this young man in your car and let him drive away from them "Well, it had stop me written all over it but because of those new regulations we aren't allowed to pull people over if we just think its illegal or stolen" you wouldn't be very happy now would you?

:huh:

Clearly you're still under the influence. That makes no sense. The Police are welcome to stop illegal or stolen cars, they're not welcomed when stopped cars because in their opinion 'it's got stop me written all over it'.

And being a copper isn't a thankless task, they get plenty of praise and even money from the public purse for doing it. You could say any job is a thankless task but unless it's a voluntary hangman of innocent people, every job in the world is thanked either by 'thanks' or 'money'.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Its "That car looks supicious" moments that catch them in the first place. Saying "It had stop me written all over it" is merely another way (though not the best way) of saying it looked suspicious.

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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What makes a car look like it's been stolen?

I'd imagine the owner reporting it, the reg number being entered into the PNC as nicked and a ANPR flagging it up. I'd have got back in the car and driven off it a copper said that to me...

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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And being a copper isn't a thankless task, they get plenty of praise and even money from the public purse for doing it. You could say any job is a thankless task but unless it's a voluntary hangman of innocent people, every job in the world is thanked either by 'thanks' or 'money'.

There are that many jobs that require one to risk life and Limb on a regulat basis, I certainly would not have enjoyed being on the front line during the recent riots. In my books the police are prety much OK, it's the bureaucrats controlling them that need the wake up pills.

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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Perhaps, if the officer had said something along the lines of "where cars like this are concerned we like to play it safe"

Brain, Mouth, Open.

The best tool the Police have is a brain, sadly this is not used or is missing in most cases.

You only have to look at this post to see what the majority think of the force, they have eroded respect from the public over a period of time. It is not the Beat bobbies direct fault, but is from the institution and its lack of accountability. You only have to look at the Met and its lack of accountability and it's stench of corruption around phone hacking etc at a high level.

Roger you live the otherside of the world, so doubt you have had any recent dealings with the boys in blue in the UK. They are paid to be on the front line and the ones at the riots are trained for it, This did seem to consists of standing and watching mind. There are plenty of times when it's not a case of that, I know plenty of coppers who sit around on shifts.

Edited by red vtec

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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Yes when Dixon of Dock Green was the local copper harhar.gif

My aunt used to hang around with the Krays, dosn't make me the next Godfather.

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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"Evnin' all"

Anyway what was wrong with the Krays, nice twin boys who loved their mum. thumbsup.gif

I always though the "I gave him an injection in the nut" was such an articulate phrase.

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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Guest surferphil

Its "That car looks supicious" moments that catch them in the first place. Saying "It had stop me written all over it" is merely another way (though not the best way) of saying it looked suspicious.

It's exactly that sort of assumption based on nothing that causes so much friction between Police and law abiding people, but then being an ex copper you were probably hand picked for your ability to make it up as you go along.

Barristers witness the result of police brutality, they prosecute officers for breaking the law, they see the lies on police witness statements, the cover ups the corruption and they see the falsified evidence the police present to a court. High court Judges are Barristers and they have a code of conduct the police would not understand let alone abide by.

As I said before, in my experience 50/50 good and bad is not a good statistic for our Police force.

It's got stop me written all over it because it had a spoiler, how the hell can you justify stopping people when you feel like it, it's harassment. I have the legal right to travel un hindered and the legal right to enjoy my possessions, you do not have the right to stop me unless you have a valid reason, he didn't, but I guess the legal stuff goes over some coppers heads.

At no point did he say it looked suspicious!

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Sorry Phil, I don't see your point. When he said "It had stop me all over it" surely that means the same thing as they were suspicious? As I said, it may not be the best way to put it and I would definately not use those words. But thats clearly what he meant.

What I really don't understand is your statement that "Being suspicious" is an "Assumption based on nothing". Maybe you would prefer if the Police just responded to crimes rather than trying to stop them before they happen? Many Police officers I know use their experience and stop people before they commit the crimes. This country would be horrific if Police could only respond after someones been murdered, or commited another crime, because "Being suspicious" is an assumption based on nothing.

Your comment that Police, and myself, were "hand picked for your ability to make it up as you go along" is, frankly offensive. Police need to be quick thinking and adapt with the enviroment, but "making it up" is not something I have ever seen happen.

I also never said 50/50. I said for every 1 theres another 10 that are good and even more who are excellent.

As for being a private citizen now, which I am, I don't speak for the police ( they aren't allowed to speak for themselves in a public forum), I would happily join the Police again with a clear conscience, not something I could do if I worked in the legal profession.

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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Guest surferphil

No, if it were suspicious then he would have said that. He didn't, I knew exactly what he was talking about, you don't - you were not there. Arguing with me about a situation you know nothing about is the reason I wrote: you make it up as you go along.

I don't see the Police on a whole as being quick thinking. They were crap in the riots.

Lock us all up and then no crimes will happen. Yes I would like the police to turn up when they were called but this doesn't happen in my experience. And the last place I lived the Police announced they were no longer patrolling the park as it was 'too dangerous'. Is this the level of crime prevention you are talking about? My friend was mugged at gun point in St Pauls in Bristol and the police asked him to come to the station to make a statement. Their attitude was 'what do you expect when you go out in St Pauls at night'.

I had 3 teenage kids try and mug me, I called the police and they didn't turn up. 2 decent officers turned up at my house the next day and remarked how shit the police were the night before.

I wrote 50/50, it was my statement from my experience, think you mis read that.

A bizarre last statement, as if all legal professions are the same.

Anyway the facts are there and to argue with them is to dismiss a problem that really exists that most of us know. That is the centre of the problem with the Police and while they blame the Solicitors judges politicians the public and barristers they will never improve. This is my opinion and nothing you have written has persuaded my that the events I witnessed didn't happen.

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One of the things you develop in any job that requires you to uphold the law is a sort of sixth sense as to when things aren't quite "right". I used to be an Immigration Officer, and it was true there, too; looking at a hall full of passengers, one could pick out those worth a few more questions from the rest of the herd...and detecting forged documents never started with looking at the document, but the passenger presenting it. One knew one had a forgery before opening the document, quite often. It is important to be polite and not act like some "jack-in-office"...but the start of all Immigration cases...and by extension, Police cases too...will be a suspicion on the part of the Officer that "something isn't right" and it's worth investigating a bit further.

I've watched some of the TV programmes which follow Police crews during their duties, and seen them pull over cars for what seemed to me to be trivial or even inadequate reasons..only for the subsequent examination of the vehicle and occupants to disclose all sorts of transgressions, banned drivers, no insurance, bald tyres, unqualified drivers, a stash of cannabis etc.etc.... none of which would have come to light without that first suspicion.....based on the Officer's sense that "something's not right".

Barristers seem to exist to return scrotes to the street as fast as possible, so they can reoffend and cause more ruin for the law abiding population. Some years ago, I was discussing the proportion of cases that the Immigration Service lost at appeal; iirc it was around 40%. The Special Branch officer I was chatting to told me that, at Crown Court, the Police were regularly losing more than 60% of their cases; I cannot believe that 60% of prosecutions involve the innocent. Some ridiculous decisions are made by the Judiciary..such as this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073589/Only-tyrant-tag-21st-birthday-Judge-spares-man-caught-keys-stolen-car-celebrate.html

I have quoted from "Inspector Gadget" before. He is a serving Police Inspector who writes a blog which has been included in the Times listing of "40 bloggers who really count" and he gives a very interesting take on how the rank and file police view things. This is his latest on "problem families"...

Why should ‘problem families change’? It’s so much fun.

The Prime Minister is diverting £448m from existing departmental budgets over four years to turn around the lives of 120,000 problem families by 2015. This is because these problem families have been costing £ billions in public services, year on year.

Unlike the PM, and having learned my lessons from actually dealing with these problem families and listening to other professionals who deal with them, my solution is somewhat more simple and far less expensive. In fact, it costs nothing.

Here is the Inspector Gadget guide for problem families:

To avoid being a problem family, take the following five steps.

1. Encourage everyone in the family to get up in the morning and go to school or work, even if it is voluntary work.

2. Stop chain-smoking, eating junk food, drinking an excess of alcohol and watching TV all day. Get some exercise.

3. Stop using violence as your immediate default position whenever anything or anyone challenges you.

4. Stop randomly having children you cannot afford and then expecting the state to raise them for you.

5. Stop stealing, beating people up (usually each other) defrauding the benefits system and using drugs.

Come on problem families, you know it makes sense.

Or does it? After all, 30 million other families who never do any of the above seem to manage. Don’t they? Maybe not. No one fits me a new kitchen free of charge when the appliances are out of date. No one fits my home with double glazing and insulation for free. No one pays for my children’s school meals and no one rushes about paying me endless attention, treating me as a ‘service user’ and generally wiping my arse for me at the drop of a hat.

If you add to that fact that the government will probably take my house off me to pay for my care when I am elderly while the problem family receives it for free, it makes you wonder who the mugs are after all.

And therein lies the reason why so-called problem families will never change. Why should they. It’s a gravy train.

Gadget Note: Generally speaking, police officers and staff would like to be able to provide a decent level of response to law abiding members of the public. Sadly, we spend most of our working lives running around trying to prevent the criminal underclass (AKA ‘problem families’) from killing each other, us and any random passer by. Every now and again it goes bent and everyone gets to see these people in action e.g. London shoplifting riots.

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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