converting from 5 to 4 stud hubs

[nic996 20]

hi everyone,

As the title suggests I am thinking about converting from 5 to 4 stud hubs. The reason being that I love the 14" S2 speedline wheels.

Does anybody know how hard it is, whats involded and indeed if it is possible?

Incidentally I will change the front brake set up for a Hi Spec or Willwood arrangement anyway so that should rule out any issue with the brakes.

any advice greatly welcomed

cheers

[Petrol feet driven 2]

You got it in one, all you need are the hubs. But I am wondering if you lower the arms, do the arms need modifying? I don't know if you also have to change the bearings. Will this make things smaller then brake lines and callipers and rotor may be tricky. I'm not sure just thinking typing out loud.

[skiing 108]

As far as I know, the difficult bit is getting hold of the hubs... Also, post 1985 the S3 front suspension is quite different (lower wishbone etc.) - as far as I know its fairly difficult - that said, I assume it would be possible to use wheel adaptors to change from a five to a four stud fitment? I have seen adaptors which do this. If you go on wheel-whores they have all sorts of advice on this type of thing and where to get the adaptors.

[hopo 154]

Wheel Whores? really Henry.... think thats a typo you mean Real Whores surely!?

im sure the hubs can be changed relativley easily. Surely an adaptor would really mess with the geometry? I might get some spacers for my rims!

[nic996 20]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the replies. I thought about adapters but they would alter the wheel offset and therfore the geometry. Also 4 to 5 stud seems to be the only option anyway and not the other way around.

As for the suspension being different at the front.... the bottom arms are different (toyota part) but the top arms are the same As far as I can see the upright looks very very similar post and pre 85 and therefore I wondered if the hubs were interchangable with the upright.

[skiing 108]

http://www.ebay.co.u...c#ht_500wt_1413

Oh and you can definitely get adaptors from five to four stud as I have seem them on a website of a company which makes them - again through the aforementioned (and correctly spelled) wheel-whores.... But I agree it will most likely affect the geometry - oh and another thing - the S3 sits a little higher (as far as most people seem to say) so am not sure how it would look with smaller diameter wheels - that said I am always considering switching my S3 bumpers etc. so it looks like an S2....

Edited December 7, 2011 by skiing

[nic996 20]

Thanks for the link. From my blurry restoration pics it looks like the rear hub assy is quite different which puts the brakes on that idea anyway. As for the ride height, I have adjustable suspension all round so that could have been rectified. I will have another look at the adapters when I have some more time. Perhaps the wheel offset on the 14" wheels is sufficient to nullify the extra offset of the adapter. Just need to find out the offsets of those wheels and compare to the BBS. Otherwise I will return to the original (and costly) plan of having a replica 15" set made by Image wheels.

Nice website wheel whores. I reckon an extended visit to their site this evening is on the cards!!

[andydclements 788]

Is the car pre or post '85.

If post then consider Excel front hubs and spacers if required to bring the face of the hub to the right place. Don't worry about the using spacers will put extra stress on the bearings" as that will not apply as you'd be keeping the wheel centre-line in the same place.

[Loose Cannon 582]

Lotusbits were remaking hubs from alloy billets last time I looked, they might be able to help?

[nic996 20]

I didn't know excel hubs fitted. I'll check that out. That only sorts the front though. Any ideas about the rear? I'll have a look at lotus bits hubs. That again only solves the front end again though.

[Loose Cannon 582]

They do Esprit bits as well as for the 4 seaters, fairly sure I saw some listed for the S3. If they are machined specially I assume they could drill any bolt pattern?

[peteyg 344]

Might want to think about tyres too. We're finding it harder an harder to get decent rubber for S1/S2 cars. If you can get the same look with 15" copies you'll be saving yourself a lot of headaches rubber-wise.

Also you will be very limited when it comes to brake mods for the 14" fronts as there's hardly any room in there for bigger discs/calipers etc. I looked into it briefly with not much joy.

Pete

[nic996 20]

The tyres are the very reason I am looking into this. Equivalent tyres in 15" for an S2 are plentiful and varied (not so for the S3 unfortunately) I have been modelling the rims in CAD for 4 and 5 spoke versions. Will post pics of them them later and hopefully get some feedback from you guys.

[Loose Cannon 582]

The new Jensen has had it's old wheels remade in 17" to suit modern tyres and brakes and looks fab. I notice that the earlier 17s were a solid casting, but the latest ones seen on the car this year (at Salon Prive etc) look to be split rims, of the "hidden" type ie no exposed bolts at the front. Image wheels seem to be a big exponent of this style, do you think it reasonable to assume they have made them and they are geared up for short runs or unique castings?

[nic996 20]

As far as I know Image Wheels will make short runs from a Billet not a cast. I am making a big guess but I think once they have the milling machine path programmed then its a case of running off as many as they need. Once its done though I suppose its like a photocopy machine in terms of copies. Hopefully there is a machinist in our community to put me right there.

One of the advantages of the Speedline wheel is a largeish flat area that runs between the outside of the spokes and the dish of the rim. Lends itself well to the (hidden) bolted area.

Those Jensen wheels look great. In fact the whole car looks fantastic. Lovely colour too.

Once I have the CAD model done and critiqued (!!) I will send it to Image and see what they say. I can only ask!!

[andydclements 788]

For the rears it might be possible to have metal added in and then simply re-drilled and threaded to 4-studs, but it would be a fair bit of work.

[pyropolymer 1]

The tyres are the very reason I am looking into this. Equivalent tyres in 15" for an S2 are plentiful and varied (not so for the S3 unfortunately) I have been modelling the rims in CAD for 4 and 5 spoke versions. Will post pics of them them later and hopefully get some feedback from you guys.

i too am in love with the speedling s2 wheels and was thinking about coverting my s3 to a 4 lug. sivler fox had and early essex hub and coverted it to a 5 lug! i would have gladly exchanged a set for his 4 lugs hubs.

i would love to see the cad models of a 5 lug 15inch S2 style wheel. seem like 7 1/2 or 8x15 fr fitted with 205,-50 or 215-50 with 9 or 10 x15 245-50 or 265-50's rears would be fantastic. please keep us in the loop with that!

regards

pp

[nic996 20]

I finished the cad models and did some renderings today. The results are a little mixed I reckon.

The first one is the 4 spoke with recesses where the spoke would have continued to the hub centre. It looks odd with the 5 holes. It was as close as I could get to replicating the original using the 5 stud pattern. The PCD of the 5 stud is larger than the 4 stud which makes things even harder.

The next one I went to a 5 spoke configuration and although it looks good I think its too close to a Porsche Fuchs wheel for my liking.

The final one is back to 4 spoke but the centre simpified. In my opinion, I think it is the best one in terms of aesthetics and compromise. The advantage would be that it could easily suit any bolt pattern. I also toyed with the idea of a large centre cap which would replicate the original wheel the best but would probably be quite costly. I will ask nonetheless to see what Image say.

Your thoughts are welcomed. Please be gentle, its the first concepts!!

[peteyg 344]

I like the middle one. I think even with 5 spokes, you retain the feel of the original which I think gets lost on the other two and it sort of fools the eye into looking like the originals. I think you really lose the feel with the short spokes. It's the symetry that's important. As long as you don't go two tone like the fuchs I don't think you need to worry.

Pete

Edited December 9, 2011 by peteyg

[nic996 20]

Good observation Pete. I am warming to the 5 spokes now :-) Although the last one makes me think of 60's Fiat and Ferrari Dino rims a little. Which appeals to me a lot of course :-)

I will still ask about bolt on centre caps and that way the original design will be almost 100% retained. I will send an email to Image once I get some more feedback from other people.

[Loose Cannon 582]

Middle one

Something like those 5 spokes already existed, presume from the name it was Momo who created them rather than Speedline but these appeared on the Momo Mirage

And also in 4 stud on various Monteverdis;

Personally I prefer the 4 spoke as it looks more graphic and less busy, but each to their own.

However the big problem with recasting for 5 studs is that you may be the only one wanting to effectively make your car look older...... When most people "upgrade" (God I hate that word) it usually means bastardising an older car with a random assortment of parts from subsequent models to make it look newer or "better". I wonder if many S3 or Turbo owners would want to make their car look like it was made in the 70s??

However if you tool up for 4 studs (and replace the hubs) you may find Esprit S2 and Elite/Eclat/Excel owners who's cars originally featured the design and a group buy would offset your initial tooling?? I would have a word with Mike Taylor at Lotusbits, or any of the other specialists who may be interested in stocking them. He has already remanufactured a few unique parts like silicone hoses, this may tickle his fancy.

[nic996 20]

Good to have your view Mark. I know what you mean about the 4 spoke. I am also a big fan. The Ford RS four spokes are a personal favourite. I am a big fan of modern mechanicals, retro look. Hence why I have an S3 but want an S2 look.

Regarding recasting, they wouldn't be "tooling up" for a limited run. They are billet machined centres bolted onto "off the shelf" outer rims. Not cast. So it would probably make little difference to the amount ordered. I guess if there was a bulk order of say 4 or 5 sets then that would hopefully reduce the extra cost of them being unique. Otherwise if my previous quote still stands then I will order a set for myself anyway. Expensive but not astranomical in price. I will certainly look into the original design with a centre cap. That way it would suit all stud patterns and therefore all cars. Clearly that would benefit all Lotus owners who wanted the retro look.

[nic996 20]

final itterations. Front and rear with centre caps. Could be a very expensive option but in my mind they look the best. I will email Image on Monday and see what they say.

[Loose Cannon 582]

Ah so what you are thinking is the 3rd option on the last page with a centre cover, very clever. I would rather not have the fake wheels bolts, but that's just personal opinion and they look fabulous. Good luck with your project, it's something I've dreamed of doing for a long time.

[nic996 20]

I think it looks a bit odd without wheel bolts but it does make it very slightly less complicated to make and they can be added in after anyway. So here it is without nuts!!

Lets see if it possible without asking Frau Merkel for a loan to cover the costs