Bye Scotland!

[johnpwalsh]

1 hour ago, Smapmap said:

I'm sorry you've been subject to anti English abuse  - that is totally unacceptable.

I lived in England for 12 years and had similar so I know how you feel and it's not right . My wife is English and has thankfully never had any negative experiences after 15 years living in Scotland. Hopefully it's becoming a thing of the past. Unfortunately there are bampots everywhere!!

Appreciate this is  banter between pals but it's on a public forum - I just happened to stumble across the thread and am pretty peeved off with some of the comments here. 🤬

Anyway.... back to the safety of the Evora forum lol 👍

My wife, also English has been here now 11 years and a bloody shop keeper said to her she had no right to speak local dialect which she has picked up over the years.  Guess who now do a round trip of 6 miles just for a pint of milk rather than give her trade. Her loss.

[C8RKH]

You know i do find it all rather funny and given my family (i guess 50:50) I do think I can see both sides.

The English will rib the Scots in England. But generally I would say the majority is good natured.

My mother is 75, lived in England for a long good while but I even catch her now making comments about "bloody whining whinging Scots" - I do pull her up on it and remind her she is a Scot. I get that look!  👀

However, there really is often an undertone from many, noway near all, Scots though with their Anyone But England and we hate England etc jibes. When I mention it to my neighbours in Scotland. I get that look 👀

I do believe though the real issue is that we have had nigh on 15 years of Salmond, Sturgeon (what is it about SNP leaders and fish) and that quite frankly idiot Blackford constantly sniping, whining and whinging about English, England and Westminster.

As a result, I do believe what we are no seeing is a reaction. A backlash. An enough is enough and just .... Off, we don't need you, response from a lot of English (a bit like with the EU - the English have a long history of taking it for so long then bam). And that attitude. That response. Is just so typical Anglo Saxon. So typical English. BUT, and here's the rub. That response really winds up the Scottish Nationalists. So the circle is fulfilled and around we go again.

The anti-english sentiment can be very strong around where I live. It can be very venomous.

There is no excuse for it from either side. Both sides are guilty. I guess a divorce will fix it. But at what cost to each side?

[Barrykearley]

8 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

There is no excuse for it from either side. Both sides are guilty. I guess a divorce will fix it. But at what cost to each side?

Dunno - I reckon the new border wall will cost an absolute fortune though

[Mysterae]

After moving to England many years ago there's something about Scotland that I never noticed until I was back visiting - it seems you can't sell anything in Scotland unless you prefix or affix it with the word "Scottish" or emblazon it with the Saltire. For example, Scottish Gas, Scottish Power, The Scottish Sun, etc. Even the big supermarkets pander to this with bespoke carrier bags for Scotland. I know it's national pride, an identity or perhaps just marketing but I didn't see the same whilst living in England, except for when the world cup was on of course! 

Now I'm back in Scotland with my English partner and son who are about to start learning Gaelic....

I feel there is no need for division of the United Kingdom. We can still be different, together.

[C8RKH]

8 hours ago, Mysterae said:

feel there is no need for division of the United Kingdom. We can still be different, together.

This in spades is my vote for best contribution to this thread.

[pete]

So next year she is going to try again whatever asking exactly the same question. Personally would have thought she might lose by more this time

[PaulCP]

She’s still banging on about “Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit” as being a reason for another referendum.

When will she get over her one dimensional thought process and realise that the EU does not want an independent Scotland as a member and that, even if they did, it won’t then be an independent Scotland.

Hopefully, as part of the information she will be presenting to the Scottish public prior to any referendum, she will also present a fully costed “business plan” style budget for the following 5 years so that she can prove how sustainable an independent Scotland will be, which will include a formula as to how the initial appropriate part of the U.K. debt will be allocated to Scotland.

I’m sure she will have already thought this through very thoroughly indeed 🤔🙄😉😂

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, PaulCP said:

She’s still banging on about “Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit” as being a reason for another referendum.

Whilst conveniently missing the point that Scotland "did not give the SNP, or her, a mandate for independence" at the last Scottish election. She, and her supporters seem to think that a minority government that has to "buy" support from the Green's means that she was given a majority by the voters.  Sturgeon struggles to spell democracy, as independence is a longer word I am surprised sometimes she can spell that.

We keep on being told up here that she has a mandate. Well, surely a real mandate would have come from the MAJORITY in Scotland putting the SNP in power would it not?

[TdM]

How far do we want to go with this rolling back of history anyway? You'll get Scottish independence, Welsh, Cornwall, Yorkshire.... Sussex, Wessex... Then we can have a king in each, because it's better to rule your own small bit with your own king.

All of that went really well the first time around. Europe was also much better with a divided Spain, Holy Roman Empire etc. History absolutely shows that division is the way forward.

[Kimbers]

Listening to Radio 5 Live this morning (Nicky Campbell not biased at all!!!!) and Several people came on and (of course) the SNP, likened it to a Divorce. They said:

Scotland is the poorer partner so should get a bigger % of the pot than England
The pot was to include English assets as well as joint ones
The Population are their kids and as such England should pay "maintenance" for 20 years
This Maintenance should be at least as much as they currently get per Capita
There should still be free use of Assets such as the tax governance, infrastructure, Currency, Oil and Gas and English tax income

Then they totally ignored everything above and said Scotland was wealthy and thats why the English didn't want them to leave and thats also why the EU will accept them immediately.

I know I have Scottish friends both here and locally and my wife is half Scottish, but I suspect many people who want to leave, get a nasty shock when they do! Am I the only one who thinks, "Just F Off for F**cks sake" and make it a total severence with no 20 years payments, split of English Assets etc? You want out then just go, but don't expect anything from us?

Sorry Scottish friends but this whole thing is wearing very thin now IMHO.

[Mysterae]

@Kimbers, if the invasion of the Ukraine by the Russians has taught us anything it is to not judge or treat a country or nation by it's political leaders. Hard not to I admit. If you are getting fed up with it think of the folk who live in Scotland, hearing about it constantly and somewhat concerned that it may actually happen. To ensure it doesn't happen the people of Scotland should be reassured by it's neighbours of the reasons to stay united, not treated with apathy and told to just f**k off already.

Sturgeon is comparable to Putin; blinkered and selfish. Fuelling her agenda on history and bigotry.

I've said it before, the last thing the world needs right now is more division.

[Kimbers]

@MysteraeUnderstand where you are coming from but many of the people calling up were just Scottish members of the public.

The SNP seems to have done a good job of convincing a small but definate Majority, that you will be so much better off without the English who they seem to think are all Boris Johnson!

I genuinely believe a referendum will vote leave. Its a shame, but like I say, the SNP will just keep coming back again and again until they get the vote and the fact they keep getting in power shocks me but doesn't surprise me (knowing some of my in laws). frankly, I understand your point of view but I fear its a minority. From this morning if I wasn't an intelligent man, I would think the SNP and Scottish callers all think leaving the union will not only solve all their problems but Ukraine, World Poverty and reduce everyones cost of living

Sorry. Not trying to upset you but frankly some need to get what they want to realise what they had!

[Mysterae]

Not at all upset @Kimbers, just tired of it too. 

The only way I'd support another referendum is that if Sturgeon promised to resign if the vote was a no. That would increase the voter count for sure!

[PaulCP]

Although not Scotland’s  first minister at the time of the last referendum, wasn’t she quoted as saying that if the vote then was “no” she wouldn’t support another referendum, or am I just dreaming.

I agree that if another one takes place she has to agree to stand down if the vote is no.

However before any vote, as I have mentioned before, she has to show the Scottish people how she plans that Scotland can survive financially without ncluding pie in the sky assumptions.

[C8RKH]

4 hours ago, Mysterae said:

@Kimbers, if the invasion of the Ukraine by the Russians has taught us anything it is to not judge or treat a country or nation by it's political leaders. Hard not to I admit. If you are getting fed up with it think of the folk who live in Scotland, hearing about it constantly and somewhat concerned that it may actually happen. To ensure it doesn't happen the people of Scotland should be reassured by it's neighbours of the reasons to stay united, not treated with apathy and told to just f**k off already.

Sturgeon is comparable to Putin; blinkered and selfish. Fuelling her agenda on history and bigotry.

I've said it before, the last thing the world needs right now is more division.

The problem with your comment @Mysterae (there, I've bloody done it now and that's Toyah off in my head again for the next 4 hours!) is what you are missing is that essentially, a large voice of pro-independence supporters have effectively been shouting at the rUk "we are better than you, we hate you, and we're going to leave you, on our terms, whether you like it or not, so just let us get on with it and we'll send you the bill and you better not complain about it when we do" for years.

It seems to me, though I am no expert so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt, that the SNP have spent the last 12-14 years driving a policy to create an abusive relationship. To sow the seeds of disharmony. Disunity. Discontent with the status quo. How else are they to create the case for change? To inspire, mobilise and galvanise their supporters? They have not made a positive case for change or Independence - how could they, they can't tell us anything material about it (currency, border, trade, settlement etc) as they just don't know what it means. They have a wish list that they call a business case. It's just a wish list and like all wishes they can evaporate without ever materialising into anything meaningful. Yet people believe.....

And they have largely gone unchecked.  During that 12-14 years it feels like our Education system has collapsed. Drug abuse and deaths have risen. Teenage pregnancies are everywhere. Attainment gaps are widening. Poverty gaps are becoming chasms. Children in poverty are increasing and front line local authority services are being cut increasing whilst budgets and control are being pulled back to the centre, to the devolved Government, who then blame everyone else and Westminster for the decline  - we're at the top, or very near it, of just about every one of those league tables in Europe. That's not a great place to be and why the hell would the EU want to let in such a sick child?  

Police Scotland, the merging of our regional forces into one has been a fiasco as far as I can see - again I'm not an expert though.  The NHS appears to be less well funded in Scotland than it is in the rUK - that's a devolved responsibility yet somehow it is blamed, like everything else on Westminster.  The SNP has created a culture where they are literally above the law. They refuse to respond to freedom of information requests. Will not publish legal advice. Withhold from holding Public Enquiries that may show up their failings.  Ferry's anyone?  It seems it's no ones fault. Prestwick airport? The list of their cock-ups is endless and yet somehow they have the arrogance to say they are beyond reproach.

The problem with an abusive relationship, which is basically what the SNP seem to have set out to create with the rUK, or top be specific, Westminster, (none of it is my fault, it's all your fault you bar steward - just like a marriage eh?) is that sometimes, eventually, the abused party snaps.  What you are hearing from @Kimbers and many others is that "snapping". To use the divorce analogy, they're basically going upstairs, filling the suitcase, throwing it out of the window and telling the antagonist to "get lost" as they have had enough. They've been pushed to the edge and beyond. Are you really surprised that some people in the rUK are totally sick and tired of the whining, the whinging, the blaming, the bleating.  People will take only so much. I fear the relationship between Scotland and the rUK is now irreparably damaged for a generation, if not longer. But if that is the price of Independence then the SNP will pay it. Just like Putin will weather the price of sanctions to achieve his aims.

I totally agree with you though. The last thing the world needs right now is more division. But to be honest, there is only one Party here that is being nasty and stoking that division and it couldn't even get a majority, again, to support its claims that the people of Scotland had given them a mandate. What absolute twaddle the SNP and Sturgeon peddle.

The main problem up here is that we do not have any OPPOSITION PARTY that could organise a piss up in a brewery, or a distillery for that matter. It would struggle to run for a bus, yet alone run a campaign against Independence. 

 

For context. Half my family (mothers side) is Scottish. I had two sons born here (and my daughter was born in England). I've lived here and contributed to the community, to the taxation system, etc for 26 years. Every day I have to ask myself the question - "Is today the day I put the house on the market?" as I have no desire, No intention, No will, to live in an independent Scotland.

Look at the last divorce - Brexit - Independence is going to make Brexit look like a nice and simple "quickie" divorce.  The Independence divorce is going to be closer to civil war than anything we have seen in the UK for over 300 years. Shetland has declared its hand. If Scotland votes for Independence they want the right to stay with the rUK. Why should they be ripped away from a union against their will they say. Hmmm, how mis Surgeon going to manipulate that as if Shetland goes then a significant portion of the natural resources (not just Oil and Gas, but fishing and offshore renewables) goes with it. Oh by jeeps, what an event that is going to be.........

ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, who does not see how this will go is blind, stupid, and ignorant.  The SNP have clearly set their stall out that they want everything.  The UK Government has been clear (not that the SNP have listened to anything) that Scotland will get exactly what it is entitled to. No more. No less. And that will include its full share of the National Debt and there will be no alimony cheque each month to keep the lights on. I make no bones for saying that this is the biggest threat to everyone in the UK that we face today in terms of the impact on lives, incomes, wealth and health. I do hope that if the SNP wins, it makes the chaos and destruction worth the pain.

Apologies for the doom and gloom. I love living in Scotland. I am very happy to contribute to society and Scotland PLC here. I just cannot see anything but 10 years+ of strife, grief, arguments and disharmony if that vote goes for. I very much hope I am proved wrong and all I prophesise just shows me as a crazy old fool who knew nothing and wasn't worth listening too.

 

 

 

 

[Mysterae]

Very well put @C8RKH.

I only have to talk to certain staunch supporters to understand how effective the smear campaign and brainwashing has been. Any opposition that tells them otherwise is seen as anti-Scottish 🤦‍♂️, when they are only trying to stop it being a cluster-f88k of mythical proportions. 

Finally, if you want to know the truth, don't open the spoiler below, just leave it unclicked.

Spoiler

 

I warned you!

 

[C8RKH]

The thing that kills me @Mysteraeis that Scotland is a beautiful place. The vast majority of Scots are very decent people. It's just a lot of them have been brainwashed into believing Independence is the ONLY solution and the scary thing is the brainwashing appears to be supported by the educational system.

I just hope we can put this to bed once and for all and just focus on making Scotland the best place to live. This sideshow is literally killing us 

[Barrykearley]

On 29/06/2022 at 12:22, Kimbers said:

Then they totally ignored everything above and said Scotland was wealthy and thats why the English didn't want them to leave and thats also why the EU will accept them immediately.

I highly doubt the EU would do that. The Northern Ireland protocol is currently a monumental pain in the ass for them - accepting Scotland into the EU would be even more problematic.

[910Esprit]

If and when Scotland re-join, it would be on a completely new set of EU imposed non-negotiable T&Cs and there would certainly be no preferential/priority treatment.  I would imagine mandatory debt reduction (AKA 'austerity'), free movement and of course the Euro.   It's also hard to see how an open border with England could work.  But equally inconceivable that a border crossing would be an acceptable solution to Brits (I'm also including Scottish folk as 'Brits').  I'm looking forward to reading NS's proposals in due course.     

[C8RKH]

20 minutes ago, 910Esprit said:

But equally inconceivable that a border crossing would be an acceptable solution to Brits (I'm also including Scottish folk as 'Brits').  I'm looking forward to reading NS's proposals in due course. 

Cannot see how a hard border could not exist. The issue is that Scotland would have "free movement" from within the EU, and unlike NI/Ireland there is not a large body of water to cross that forces border controls.  I do believe that once the full facts of what all of this REALLY means, as opposed to what Nicola WANTS people to believe, comes out then there will be some interesting conversations. But that also means that Remain really needs to get its shit together so it can articulate the impacts and ask the DIRECT questions of Nicola and not let her off the hook with her answers. Can't see that happening based on past performance

 

[ChrisJ]

If the referendum was opened up to the whole of the UK and not just Scotland, I reckon Nicola would get her wish.

[PaulCP]

Just taking in points from the Fish’s speech, still swimming in cloudy waters & dreaming of SturgeonLand.

It would seem that SturgeonLand being a member of the EU is a pure formality and that Scotland is better prepared for independence than it was in 2014, although she conveniently doesn’t say how 🤔

She says she has loads of detail & will take journalists questions later. Please let there be a decent journalist amongst you, not just reporters, and ask her to reveal details of her fully costed 10 & 20 year vision for a viable independent Scotland. She surely can’t be flying blind in her quest to get votes, in the same way that she has recently accused Truss of 🙄

[C8RKH]

@PaulCP and she reckons Oil and Gas (that she wants to kill off totally) will deliver her a $20bn sovereign fund to drive growth!

You also missed the bit Paul about joining the EU and having an open border with rUK and NI!  F##king bonkers!

And only at the weekend she telling Kuensberg was it about how the SNP government is all about transparency etc....

However, plenty up here are sucking the coolaid from the straw and whoopin' and a holerin' about how great Independence will be.

[910Esprit]

Not to mention the massive porky about a Scottish currency, which will not happen even if independence does.

[PaulCP]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@PaulCPHowever, plenty up here are sucking the coolaid from the straw and whoopin' and a holerin' about how great Independence will be.

Ah, so they are all off to the promised land with the deluded Messiah.

She is guilty of political evangelism, the gospel according to Nic!