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Meat, Vegetarianism, Vegan?


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When we was away my lovely niece is thinking of going Vegan, she is already a vegetarian. My Nephew asked about milk and that is obviously a no no. The he asked her about Breast Milk. ....... stumped. Might be a business idea for someone. 

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All of this is good and fine and noble. However. There is nothing finer than a properly cooked ribeye steak on the bone with fresh steamed vegetables. Except maybe the finest air roasted back bacon co

God planted the green stuff to give the animals something nutritious to eat so we could eat nutritious animals. Tonight I had corn fed chicken livers for my starter. I had grass fed organic beef

So no leather seats then? You need a nice cup of tea and a decent bacon roll. Happy to supply at any time. Organic Vegetarianism is fine for animals, that's what makes them good for us to ea

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Yes. Because in my view most Vegans don't give a shit about other people. A bovine cow being milked is exploitation to them. A human cow, well, that's not their problem .......     hahaha....

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just started reading this, and what started as a serious question, seems to have off-tracked to a joke, childish remarks, egoistic jokes on others behalf, and not being able to answer to remarks; completely missing the debate. Oh well, I usually do that myself ;) so no offence taken, and no pun intended ;)

When I was 21 I had a Heart stop, died for 6 minutes and was brought back to life, and I am very gratefull for that. And it made me think just a Little  bit more.

That aside, I think there are many aspects that each of us could considder with a bit of benefit for everyone.

Much of the soil used for growing plant are being used to make Soya plants for cow-meat production, not making human plant food. It also seems like making 1 kilo of meat, takes 5 times more input than 1 kilo of eatable plants. And rice is a plant that consumes extreme amounts of Water for Little outcome.

Both my wife and I really enjoy cooking vegetarian food. It's easy and found a wealth of good taste and not feeling I miss out on anything, to be honest. But it did take a while to get to that point as I'd spent my forst 25 years eating "meat with something around". I simply lost any interest in it, and decided to try being a vegetarian. All my Brothers and sisters are meat eating, and happy with that. No problem. Their choice.

What is worth noting in such a debate is, that more and more people claim meat on the dinner table every day. There seems to be an equality between wealth and more meat eating (who would have guessed that?) Well, if that would be full-filled, we would probably have some sort of serious trouble soon, thinking of the Water comsumption alone, and then some. It's a bit like china leaving the bicycle and 1,4 billion people wanting to drive a car every day. What a congestion it makes.

For me, people can eat what they want. It's their choice. Their responsability. Personally, I am a vergetarian since 25 years ago, now being 50, and I love milk, butter and youghurt. In my genes are an adaptability to being able to consume that, with no ill effects. I go to my local doctor once every 5 years and get a test to see if I miss any vitamin etc. Nope. Everythings is fine. I Wear a leather suit when riding my Laverda motorcycle, I Wear leather shoes, jackets, have leather in the cars, and like to Work on leather as in belts, wallets etc, as one of my hobbies. But to me, it also involves for example riding a bike to Work, instead of sitting in a car que every day, so I get some exercise meanwhile. To me it's also about being resonable. I try to take care of myself and stay fit. I take the cars out of town for fun and sometimes practicallity. I sort the Waste at home (everyones is supposed to, having 5 different trash containers), and I don't receive paper advertising.

I like being able to make old stuff Work and keep on being usable, instead of throwing it away and buying new stuff all the time. I don't drink or smoke, as I've seen enough people die of this, including my own Family. And I just don't plain like it as well. A personal choice. Do I scream: "Put that beef Down!" or "Throw that cigarette away!" to everyone? no. They are adult people, and have their free will. And we all, me included, suffer the consequences of our choices. I do try to be aware of Chemicals injected into or being a part of food, gardening etc. as that is just plain unhealthy and creates many problems over decades.

I considder my choice a balanced one. I try to give a Little and take a Little, and honestly, I don't lack or miss anything at all.

What I would like more people on the Earth to think about is sustainability. When I was 10 y.o. I saw a display in the Copenhagen Zoological Garden showing the total population of humans on the Earth being around 5.000.000.000. Now, 40 years later, it's near 8.000.000.000. To me, that Means I must try to make a Little more balanced choices, as I would like to leave the Earth in good shape for my next Fellow being. I was fortunate enough to be born into this World not missing anything, and I'd like to leave it the same way for the future genarations, our sones and daughters.

It doesn't take much. Just a Little here and there.

Kind regards,

jacques

ps: I am not left wing oriented.

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@Jacques, I understand and respect your arguement. My daughter was Veggie for 5 years until she came on holiday with me. i was cooking Prawns on a BBQ with garlic butter and she demanded one. After that she wanted the bacon and the rest is history. 

I don't agree with your comment that making a kilo of meat takes 5 times the effort of growing 1 kilo of Vegetables. I used to work on a farm when I was younger and I can assure you growing plants can be much more time consuming. You also forget things like Fish and Chickens. My chucks take virtually no effort. They are free range and high welfare and are treated almost like pets.

I do agree that Cows can be high maintenance but thats normally the diary herd. steers, Heifers and bullocks are mainly used for meat and they aren't really around very long so they don't take up much effort!

Overall it is really down to personal choice. I could be a pescatarian maybe even a veggie but I couldn't be a vegan because I don't want to criticise everyone else and call people evil murders :) Yesterdays article on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42833132

 

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Hi Kimbers,

Duly noted. When I mentioned the energy consumption on meat vs plantfood, what I meant is the total amount of energy (Water, soil, food, transportation, processing etc. as a total) it takes to produce 1 kilo of ready meat, vs. an eatable plant. As I understood it, the Soya Growth is also pretty hard on the environment (rice as well), and both animals and humans consume more and more of this. The next thing is where it's done. Soil for cattle and plants are cheapest in areas of the third World, but naturally a desert cannot be used, so Places like South America is being exploited for cheap and fast cattle production and Soya as well. Now, everyone have probably noted, that in South America is a sometimes pretty heated fluctuation between cattle raisers (and in reality also plants like Soya) and local population, of which some of course are in production and many are not, all wittnessing deforestation. Often illegal. Here in the West, we make a lot of noise about planting more trees, and so we do. In South America, they do the same, but deforestation is much larger in scale. And the top soil there is pretty thin. after as Little as 3-4 years, the top soil is depleted of minerals and turns into desert.

That have very Little to do with raising a few cows in a much more ethical manner, like you mention. The way you describe it, I much better  can agree to. Large scale industrial production is a Whole different matter. I don't think the majority of ordinary people on the Earth can afford the high quality you stand for, but will have to get what they can, cheap meat made in  not so fortunate a way. The enormous length of transportation involved is another matter. Local roduction is way better.

An example of this are some of the batteries needed for Electric car production (I know, outside this subject). You get the minerals one place, then sail it to the other end of the World, where it's being transformed into usable materials for batteries, then ship it off to the other end of the World once more, to fabricate batteries, and then ship it aorund the World once more, to install them into cars. That simply cannot be the least environmentally friendly way of making them. But cheap Labour and easy peasy rights to mine, bribing etc, make for such a crazy system. And I am sure the pm in Downing Street Nr. 10 would not like to have a mining Facility in the backyard (any more).

Poloution and energy (on a wider scale as in water, minerals, heat, power etc.) used for production is taking it's toll. So we should just be a Little more carefull about it. And for example not bribe some african poor countries to accept old rotten shipwrecks, refrigerators, computers, cars etc, to be dumped there. Btw. I don't believe in the Electric with batteries, as I see batteries as a large scale expensive polluting source in the future. I think that other ways of making engines are better. Say getting energy out of salt Water,as it's been done already, into a sort of combustion engine, much like the one we know.

My other point was the amount of meat eating in total. I don't think the environment will suffer from people eating a beef now and then, but once 8.000.000.000 people crave for meat in the morning, lunch and evening, that will hurt. and everyone will see the depletion of say usable drinking Water and more. Combine that with the large scale pollution fron the industry (pick any), and we can soon realise, that something have to give. Something have to be changed.

My point is just a Little bit of moderation for the sake of sustainability and being a bit more carefull, is all I wish for. Not starting wars between meateaters and vegans in a militant way. That is just plain stupid, and slow Down efforts of making better food in a better way.

Kind regards,

jacques

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Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Sorry to bring it up, but I never met an angry or aggressive vegetarian or vegan person. But I have met just a few angry and aggressive meat eating people, one of my brothers included, ha ha. Or a former colleague who at a meeting on my job in the lunch break, shouted across the big room where everyone had their lunch: "oh can you hear the vegetables scream?". Then again, he was seriously overweight from exactly eating too much in general, and had a very low selfasteem etc. I just felt sad for him.

I don't understand the need to bring up various sorts of threats against someone else beforehand in an imaginary case. While I personally would reserve the right to defend myself and/or leave the place, I wouldn't put threats against others for eating specifically meat, vegetables etc. And also I wouldn't do it if I had not even met anyone. But if it was the case, I would just look at such an aggressive attacking militant vegan with a clear expression on my face showing a mix of contempt and indulgence. His or her action pretty much speaks volumes for himself/herself.

Seems counterproductive to be aggressive, also even beforehand.

The idea of eating less meat, and choosing it carefully seems a good idea to me, and would enable the possibility to incorporate many of my own points mentioned in the first place. Sustainable. To me, that seems like a fair way forward.

Anyway, each to his own, of course.

SKÅL!

jacques

Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Did you read the article I posted above @Jacques? Never met an angry or Agressive Vegan? Really? I haven't met a normal one!!!

Heres some quotes from the article:

The Association of Independent Meat Suppliers has met with the official National Counter Terrorism Police Operations Centre team to discuss how to respond to the movement.

The National Pig Association claims its members "cannot sleep at night" because Save Movement members have allegedly turned up at farms and slaughterhouses at night.

At a slaughterhouse in Liverpool, some activists decided to trespass on the property when the pigs were not brought through the front entrance. Police were called and escorted them off the property, following a tense argument between protestors and workers.

You've got people storming the meat mart, spraying graffiti...

Does any of that sound noraml to you mate? 

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They were talking about vegetarianism on Radio 2 yesterday.

Personally I dont eat very much meat and only buy free range chicken after I decided cage and barn keep birds just wasnt right.

Anyway yesterday all the talk really made me fancy a nice bit of steak. So off to Aldi 21 day matured sirloin. Cooked as steak Diane with new pots and spring greens...man my body must have been craving iron but boy was it good.

 

buddsy

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"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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No, haven't met any ever. They damage their cause by acticg so, and should just be treated like any other criminal. The only case I ever heard of, was some mink farm, WHO was overrun with hooded mad people, letting them Loose. Years ago.

In my country, we have serious middle eastern and rocker gang problems, no militant vegans.

Budsy, I think your take on the matter is a nice step forward. I also stopped eating caged chicken eggs long ago. I get them from free living  organic whatever farm.

Kind regards,

jacques

Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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2 minutes ago, Buddsy said:

They were talking about vegetarianism on Radio 2 yesterday.

Personally I dont eat very much meat and only buy free range chicken after I decided cage and barn keep birds just wasnt right.

Anyway yesterday all the talk really made me fancy a nice bit of steak. So off to Aldi 21 day matured sirloin. Cooked as steak Diane with new pots and spring greens...man my body must have been craving iron but boy was it good.

 

buddsy

I am a dedicated meat lover but likewise, buy less but of better quality. As a fanatical lover of curry it is possible to eat delicious meat-free dishes that do not lack in flavour - I recommend Rick Stein's "India" cookbook. Go heavy on the green chillies!

As to other people's lifestyle I do not give a toss as long as they don't try and impose it on me - live and let live I say. The only thing I worry about when I get on the train each morning and scrutinise my fellow passengers is: Does so and so look like a bloody terrorist?

The problem is that groups like the The Save Movement and all the other hysterical nut-jobs screaming with outrage on the fringes have the effect of pushing normal, middle of the road people into perhaps slightly more extreme positions than they are really comfortable with - the more it goes on, the more extreme will be the backlash when our patience, tolerance and goodwill is pushed to breaking point.

Anyway, rant over - Just keep driving everybody!

 

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I must admit to cutting down on red meat. Tonight we have home made burgers. Turkey burgers with Thyme made by my own fair hand and Hot dogs made with Turkey Sausages.

More than 50% less fat than Beef, 30% less calories and taste sooooooo good! Even my boys prefer them to Beef burgers.

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1 hour ago, Bassman said:

As a fanatical lover of curry it is possible to eat delicious meat-free dishes that do not lack in flavour - I recommend Rick Stein's "India" cookbook. Go heavy on the green chillies!

I with you on Indian vegetable dishes too!

@Kimbers I dont believe there is a problem eating pure animal fat as in the fat you find in a piece of animal. The trouble is with the man made alternatives which try to be unsaturated and the processed meats.

Anyway didnt you see the whole idea of reducing red meat for health turned out being just made up nonsense?

 

buddsy

 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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I've just demolished a very nice piece of Ribeye, accompanied by potatoes, carrots and broccoli - all organic and locally sourced.

Conscious that I could do even more than I have already to limit my environmental impact, I decided that rather than my usual rare I'd have it blue rare. Less time in the griddle = less gas consumed = healthier planet, ^_^ .

Delicious it was too!

 

blue steak.png

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Nice looking steak Dave however I prefer my rib eye more cooked as it helps the fat to melt into, and impart more flavour to, the meat and in my eyes that's the best bit about a ribeye.  Now, if that was a piece of fillet it would be spot on to my liking!   Some honey glazed carrots, broccoli, and dollop of mash and I would be heaven.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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  • 2 weeks later...

After reading about how animals are killing the enviroment I decided to arm myself with some facts about Vegan food, thanks to the article above.

The staple of Vegan diet is Tofu. Tofu is a "processed form of Soya (making it even worse for the enviroment) But Soya itself is even recognised by the WWF as destroying rain forests, animals and the enviroment. I am eagerly waiting for the next criticism to pass my way!
http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/impacts/

 

 

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well, sort of, but the human consumption by vegan is far less than animal feed to then feed humans.

From the same website you sourced Kimbers, :

"What’s the connection between a fish fillet and an armadillo? Scrambled eggs and a jaguar? A Sunday roast and the loss of forests in Latin America?
You may be surprised to learn that it's the humble soybean.

Can we break the connection?

Most people associate soy with tofu and soy milk. However, only a small portion of soy is consumed directly by humans. In fact, most of the world’s soy crop ends up in feed for poultry, pork, cattle and even farmed fish.

Unbeknownst to most of us, soy is found in almost all commercially produced meat or chicken that we eat.  ....etc... "

 

facts are good, just need to be put in context. The real problem is there are too many humans

 

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20 minutes ago, Clive59 said:

facts are good, just need to be put in context. The real problem is there are too many vegan humans

 

FTFY!

 

But then only joking. I actually very much agree with you @Clive59 that one of the biggest issues facing the world is that there are indeed too many people.  It is the undeniable issue that no-one really wants to address or look at and it is the one undeniable fact that will continue to grow in priority as an issue through the next 100 years until our entire eco system collapses under the weight of the population.

If we re really serious about protecting and saving the planet then a policy on offspring and permanent contraception of both sexes will need to be discussed, unless we adopt the system used in the 80's scifi programme of the BBC Logan's run where we are killed off when we reach 35/40 (can't remember the exact number). If we then combine that with the film with Charlton Heston I believe, the people we kill off become a rather tasty and nutritious green biscuit called, Soylent Green, and so we fix the population issue and how we feed the population we have.  The vegan's will be delighted as no animals are harmed or used, and no animal bi-products are used, in the production of Soylent Green. Job done. We can all be happy.

Who says SciFi does not predict the future?

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Soylent Green is the answer.

@Clive59 Id di read that but I also read elswhere that the rise in Veganism has seen himan consumption rise by 4 times in the last 5 years alone and that if we got rid of all meat products/animal feed etc that used Soya then production would remain exactly the same due to the increase in production for Human consumption.

The only alternative is Local based products that don't take up rain forest like the Soya Bean or use all the local villages staple diet like Avocado. But Vegans (at least most I know) don't understand that and constantly post crap about how they are saving the planet by eating Tofu!

That was my point.

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