esprits4de Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 I need to replace my S4 stock turbo as it just does not cut right anymore. There are some alternatives to consider and I would be greatful for other peoples experiences on these alternatives. ( especialy in regard to drivability, iow I usualy drive the car in a very hilly area and tend to work the car between 4000-6000 rpm with quick up and down shifts.) a. WC-Engineering Stage I b. WC-Engineering Stage II c. Garrett GT3076R d. whateverelse Turbo. I would like to get around 420-440 HP continuous power. Quote Olaf S400 project www.esprits4.de __________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kato Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Check out Dermot's site. He's had both the PUK and WC turbo's. http://www.lotusesprit.org/ Quote kato http://www.lotusespritworld.com' target='_blank'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE-SLO Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Hi, it's easy job. I replaced mine two months ago. Decided for P.U.K. turbocharger. Details as follows: - True reflowed T3 design (no laggy hybrid setup !!!) - Highest flow T3 compressor design with ported Super 60 housing and ported intake port - Max. flow 60 2.3 compressor wheel for max. high flow and min. turbo lag - Special heavy duty 360 Quote LOTUS Esprit Turbo SE, 1990 P.U.K. racing turbo charger ECU chip 1.1 bar Motorsport racing fuel pump RC racing High Flow secondary injectors RC racing High Flow primary injectors custom made titanium free flow exhaust Electric CC pump Double size Chargecooler, heavy duty version Racing air filter BOV Crankcase Breather filter Ram air converison Uprated Valeo clutch with 25% more torque KW85 HT leads, IW22 spark plugs S4S wheels, front mask, rear spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermot Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Olaf, There are not many 2.2L 910 engines in the world developing in excess of 440hp. I know of only 2. It is possible, but you go into a whole new realm of cost and expertise. Even the race time were not generating that kind of power in the GT series. It is not a matter of just fitting a new turbo charger. For example, up to 380 hp you can use the stock head gasket in combination with ARP or equivalent head bolds and studs. After that you into decking the head, iron liners etc... If that is what you are after I know a man who can help. Dermot Quote Lotusesprit.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula&Marcus Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Hi, it's easy job. I replaced mine two months ago. Decided for P.U.K. turbocharger. Details as follows: - True reflowed T3 design (no laggy hybrid setup !!!) - Highest flow T3 compressor design with ported Super 60 housing and ported intake port - Max. flow 60 2.3 compressor wheel for max. high flow and min. turbo lag - Special heavy duty 360 Quote Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprits4de Posted July 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Dermot, ok 440 in the first slay is a bit ambiguous, but doing some long term planning, the safety of the engine 1st, I would like to head towards the 400 hp barrier. Right now I really do not want to go through hell and back, but with what stock I got to at least prepare the way to going sick on that car. Today I am planning to either implement Stage I or II to give the engine the air it needs, then the injectors, to give it the fuel it needs. There after we are talking about a dubble size CC, then a mod on the radiators. The fuel pump seems to be a short term must as well. Afterwards we need to go for the internals. Bolts, camshaft, valves, liners and pistons, Crankshaft and bearings, flywheel and finally the darn gearbox. All in all I plan tp revise the power pack with in the next 3-5 years, depending on the realization of my next dream. STOP. OK the first set of mods should be good for around 375-400 HP. The R&B turbo should make it to about 360 HP with all MODs included. I think that the WCE Stage I will do better, but I would like some input on the Stage II as I do not seem to find any reviews on it. Olaf PS my car has 23000 KM on the Tick, driven in a respectfull manner, temperature before speed and rev, driven cool off after. Quote Olaf S400 project www.esprits4.de __________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermot Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Olaf, I can confirm that the WC Stage 1 turbo has deliver 370 hp when everything elso is correctly sized. From my experience I don't think the stock ECU can deliver much more without help from either a 3rd party boost controller or a new ECU. You are limited by the 1.25bar max boost the ECU can control. I don't think anyone in the UK as a WC stage 2 turbo. Top end hp always comes at the expense of lag, I would worry the Stage 2 may not be so nice for road use. Dermot Quote Lotusesprit.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmavore Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 John (WC) is the ONLY ONE IN THE WORD I would trust to sell me and support me with a new turbo. Email him. He will reply. Lucas. Quote Luke Colorado, Super Spy. - Lotus Owner No Longer 1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmavore Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 I think it's a safe bet that the current 180R race cars are producing north of 400BHP (@ the wheels) using the delco ECM. I'm quite sure they are using a boost controler and a special turbo set up however. I wouldn't go this far unless I was close to John to support it, but that's just me. Lucas. Quote Luke Colorado, Super Spy. - Lotus Owner No Longer 1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandbloke Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Previous minder reckons 330bhp at the wheels of Lottie (90 SE) which I guess is 'north' of 370-380 Yorkshire horses at the crank. Strangely there seems to have been little colonial input, but I think Garry, Dermot and Marcus possibly colluded... Once her undercarriage is sorted I'll be able to unleash the beast within! Quote Proud recipient of the LEF 'Car of the Month Award' February 2008"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: "Wow, what a ride!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermot Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Stu, You must have Gavin's old car ? I have been in it and recorded a Freescan log some years back.. Dermot Quote Lotusesprit.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE Owner :-D Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Guys, Don't mean to infiltrate this thread - but all of this talk is getting me moist! I am too in the planning stage of a similar project for my SE as young Olaf! Dermot, Marcus and John Welch are my first point of call and indeed Steffen from R+B. (thank you MArcus for all your wisdom so far). I have also colluded with Brother Nicholas who has had extensive work on his GT3 - FGRC. Olaf, i think that your planning seems sound but i would also agree with Lucas in that John Welch is very approachable and if you are going for Stage 2 he will need all the details of your engine's clearances, sucking and blowing, etc. He has Stage 3+4 too - but we need to go over to the colonies for that!! Anyway i've rambled enough but would like to be kept abrest of what happens next in your project! If you don't mind? Thanks and... Good luck, Rog Quote 2009 World Singstar Champion No I don't like the Europa, Evora or Exos. "Like a cockmonkey with 3 cocks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandbloke Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Stu, You must have Gavin's old car ? I have been in it and recorded a Freescan log some years back.. Dermot <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep. Well, she was my car first (1990-2002) and she's now come back to the land of derestricted roads where I can see if Gavin's work was all worthwhile! Stu Quote Proud recipient of the LEF 'Car of the Month Award' February 2008"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: "Wow, what a ride!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprits4de Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Well, thanx for the attention on this subject, I really appreciate thought exchange on this. Once I have cleared my mind on Stage I or II, John and I had email exchange a while back, I need to get the fueling right. According to Dermot a primary 370s and secondary 270s are what is right. If I visit RC Eng.webpage and interpret the fuelsize calculator right, I would need 550 primary and secondaries assumed to stay at 270 ? I want to keep in mind that I want to reach the 400 hp border in the future.( I hve lowered my expectation due to modifications needed that I would only perform in a total overhaul at about 100.000 KM, and that is a long way ahead). .... Quote Olaf S400 project www.esprits4.de __________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitstoppete Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 cant use bigger primaries coz of poor fuel control at idle. 370/270 is the way to go. dermot and i both have the stage 1 turbo and these injectors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermot Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Peter is spot on. With 370/270 the car can support 370hp. I have real A/F figures from a dyno to support this. The RC fuel calculator needs to be used carefully. Remember you can get 80% duty cycle on the primary and 100% on the secondary injectors. We also have raising pressure fuel reg so the base fuel pressure raises to approx 60 psi at 1.0+ bar boost. Dermot Quote Lotusesprit.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprits4de Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Dermot, didn't you say on your page that the pressure on the fuel rail was unchanged? So which regulator did you eventually use ? Fuelpump, According to your quote the pump should make up tp 60psi ? I am still to scource a pump, probably will go for BOSCH. Quote Olaf S400 project www.esprits4.de __________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermot Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Dermot, didn't you say on your page that the pressure on the fuel rail was unchanged? So which regulator did you eventually use ? Fuelpump, According to your quote the pump should make up tp 60psi ? I am still to scource a pump, probably will go for BOSCH. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Olaf, No I say " a constant pressure pressure differential". So as the boost pressure rises the fuel pressure has to raise in 1:1 ratio. I have the stock reg. No need to change the reg. If you raise the base fuel pressure with an adjustible reg the fuel maps will be way out. I do not recommend this approach for more fuel. D. Quote Lotusesprit.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprits4de Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Olaf, No I say " a constant pressure pressure differential". So as the boost pressure rises the fuel pressure has to raise in 1:1 ratio. I have the stock reg. No need to change the reg. If you raise the base fuel pressure with an adjustible reg the fuel maps will be way out. I do not recommend this approach for more fuel. D. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Misinterpreted! But what Sytec ? ITP244? Quote Olaf S400 project www.esprits4.de __________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmavore Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 It doesn't hurt to replace the FPR, I did. The stock unit isn't of the highest quality, obviously. Just make sure you set static pressure to 3BAR and no higher or lower!! Lucas. Quote Luke Colorado, Super Spy. - Lotus Owner No Longer 1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Grey Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 It doesn't hurt to replace the FPR, I did. The stock unit isn't of the highest quality, obviously. Just make sure you set static pressure to 3BAR and no higher or lower!! Lucas. Was that before or after you were running lean? Did you ever get that problem fixed? I remember you replaced about half the car... Quote Travis Vulcan Grey 89SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmavore Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 She's richer than a Qatarian National now. Whooo, hooo... Ended up being the fuel pump, but we didn't discover that until we'd replaced evey other component. Anyways.... once I get a new turbo I'll have plenty of gas. Lucas. PS, how we discovered was by logging fuel pressure vs. boost on the dyno after she was still so lean. Turned out the pump just couldn't keep it up ...pressure that is. Quote Luke Colorado, Super Spy. - Lotus Owner No Longer 1987 Zender Widebody 560SEC | 1994 Lotus Esprit S4 | 2013 Honda Fit EV (#269) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula&Marcus Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Well, thanx for the attention on this subject, I really appreciate thought exchange on this. Once I have cleared my mind on Stage I or II, John and I had email exchange a while back, I need to get the fueling right. According to Dermot a primary 370s and secondary 270s are what is right. If I visit RC Eng.webpage and interpret the fuelsize calculator right, I would need 550 primary and secondaries assumed to stay at 270 ? I want to keep in mind that I want to reach the 400 hp border in the future.( I hve lowered my expectation due to modifications needed that I would only perform in a total overhaul at about 100.000 KM, and that is a long way ahead). .... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Olaf, Its not intelligent to use bigger than +10% primaries ... you will end up with improper fuelling at low rpm/boost/load conditions. The ECU will not be able to properly control the mixure at low fuel demands. Take the primaries stock size (maybe +10% if you like) and adjust the high rpm/boost/load mixture via the secondaries ... Cheers Marcus Quote Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Blur Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Just to point out that the X180R cars in the US SCCA are running approx 410bhp at the wheels so approx 500bhp at the crank.They do have uprated fixers, gaskets, liners and variou sother spatr s but are not so removed internally - difference being the engines are rebuilt at the end of each season or sooner if they let go. These are using Stage 4 TO4E from John Welch. I'll either be using John's Stage4 or the GT3040R or GT35R. My target for this winter is also 500bhp at the crank and/or 400bhp at the wheels before I go racing from next May onwards. From there wil require a full engine from Garry complete with steel bottom end and 2.6 litre stroker kit but I hoinestly believe the turbo ideas surrounding our cars is a bit behind current developments. Dermot makes a good ppint - for road cars I wouldn't go much beyond 370bhp to maintain long-term reliability. Bigger turbos also produce a lot more heat as well as require conversion parts such as flanges, wastagates, downpipes, manifolds. I recall the GT2 made about 420bhp on a fairly old type T Garrett. With regards to lag - this can be better addressed through a GT dual ball bearing turbo, which is an advance on older T designs. For extremely fast spool up you would struggle to do better than the Garret GT28RS Disco Potato.. it spools to max boost well before 3K rpm. Big thanks to Dermot, Garry K and John Welch for their continued advice and support. Quote It's alive.. alive!!!.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Blur Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Olaf, Its not intelligent to use bigger than +10% primaries ... you will end up with improper fuelling at low rpm/boost/load conditions. The ECU will not be able to properly control the mixure at low fuel demands. Take the primaries stock size (maybe +10% if you like) and adjust the high rpm/boost/load mixture via the secondaries ... Cheers Marcus <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good point Marcus - I recall the big power US cars John Welch supports run 380cc primaries and up to 600cc secondaries. Quote It's alive.. alive!!!.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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