TURBO replacement

[M Blur]

Say a 1.10 lap time x 20 -25 laps.. tho car has doen 6 hr relay races before.. I'm aware of the heat soak issues - X180R cars are running for 1 hr endurance in US temps ok..

the WC Stage4 is a big turbine by all accounts - John reckons it was on a par with a Gt35 for size - designed for the race cars tho a small number of street car shave them.. John quoted 440atw @ 1.2 bar tho this may not be correct. Ceramic ball bearing keeps temps down tho lots of wrapping and shielding planend plus I'll have a lot of ventilation out of my engine bay.

Map will be for up to 1.7 bar - max map/bar sensor can handle. Of course ober 1.22 bar the ecu is estimating the fuel but John hasn't had any problems and I'll use the HKS to remove the stock boost control and a wide bid lambda to ensure a godo mix through the rev/boost range.

John is going to send some flow maps to compare with the ones I have for the GT30 - GT35R series.

Edited August 25, 2006 by M Blur

[rydning]

Say a 1.10 lap time x 20 -25 laps.. tho car has doen 6 hr relay races before.. I'm aware of the heat soak issues - X180R cars are running for 1 hr endurance in US temps ok..

the WC Stage4 is a big turbine by all accounts - John reckons it was on a par with a Gt35 for size - designed for the race cars tho a small number of street car shave them.. John quoted 440atw @ 1.2 bar tho this may not be correct. Ceramic ball bearing keeps temps down tho lots of wrapping and shielding planend plus I'll have a lot of ventilation out of my engine bay.

Map will be for up to 1.7 bar - max map/bar sensor can handle. Of course ober 1.22 bar the ecu is estimating the fuel but John hasn't had any problems and I'll use the HKS to remove the stock boost control and a wide bid lambda to ensure a godo mix through the rev/boost range.

John is going to send some flow maps to compare with the ones I have for the GT30 - GT35R series.

Hello

I was 3 day at track this weekend running 1.5 bar boost on my engine with stock internals,GT3076R 0,82AR turbinehouse(rated to 500-550bhp),big IC,Autronic ECU.

It did last and there was no car that could follow mine now.

I did even win the dragrace with this car this weekend.I was boosting 1,65 bar of boost.

One gay with a Monster EVO he bought from UK didnt want to dragrace me because I drove from him at the track.He claimed that he had benchtest on 706bhp.

[esprits4de]

I love that GT3076R 0,82AR turbinehouse(rated to 500-550bhp) follow up, sounds , ahem splendid. Please post more on the set up, in regards to longlivety to come.

[M Blur]

Nice work Robin -

Tho I'd be careful running higher boost - have you checked the bores all look ok - good afr throughout.>?? Inlet temps etc etc all okay?

Dermot, Marcus, Garry K seems pretty sceptical about the stock engines longevity over 400bhp - but happy if you prove him wrong.

still not decided on GT3076R, GT35R or WC Stage4 T04E...

[rydning]

Nice work Robin -

Tho I'd be careful running higher boost - have you checked the bores all look ok - good afr throughout.>?? Inlet temps etc etc all okay?

Dermot, Marcus, Garry K seems pretty sceptical about the stock engines longevity over 400bhp - but happy if you prove him wrong.

still not decided on GT3076R, GT35R or WC Stage4 T04E...

I did got 55 degree inlet temp after 15min trackwork still no detonation running conservative timing only 16 degree advance between 4000-5000rpm and it was 28 degree outside airtemp.

I think the reson that this work is because of the ECU. You are able to control this engine the way a custom build race engine recuire.

I`m also sceptical to the mechanical strengt,special the stock crank.But I now one who have taken apart a Lotus factory Le Mans engine and he claim that it was a stock modifyed crank and they did run 24h race with 425bhp.I only run for 15 min then I let everythings cool down a hour.

I gona tare down this engine this fall and inspect everything.

The thing is that nobody can tell me what the stock crank can handle.

I wish I had a spare engine and I would be able to tell you that......

I can put on my G-tech and do some rwhp tests,you get pretty close result to wats true.

I`m sure this engine is above 400bhp now.

I got 345rwhp at 1.45bar when I broke the hybrid turbo that was rated to 420bhp.

And it pulls much better now on this turbo with 1.5 bar.

If you are gona run with 2,2ltr I cant recomend a bigger/slow spool up turbo.This is the bigges that is gona work on track,because it might work when you are alone one qualifying. But in traffic at the track you get far to easy below the powerrange.And then you are not able to pull away from the other that have slowed you down if the straights are to short.

I will by far recomend a 2,6 from garry if you want more than 450bhp that are usable at the track.

Edited August 29, 2006 by rydning

[M Blur]

Would prefer to keep the stroke as short as poss to keep it more rev happy - I expect a fully balanced 2.2 will rev easier than a 2.6 even if you get globfuls more torque on the 2.6.

I need to run the car for much longer stretches so hence need to be cautious and go for a steel bottom end.

I'm still drawn to the T04E from John Welch as it's tried and tested - working well for the guys in the US and you get the extra support from John.. decisions decisions.

I may jst slap the 383 in there - what the heck..lol

[rydning]

Would prefer to keep the stroke as short as poss to keep it more rev happy - I expect a fully balanced 2.2 will rev easier than a 2.6 even if you get globfuls more torque on the 2.6.

I need to run the car for much longer stretches so hence need to be cautious and go for a steel bottom end.

I'm still drawn to the T04E from John Welch as it's tried and tested - working well for the guys in the US and you get the extra support from John.. decisions decisions.

I may jst slap the 383 in there - what the heck..lol

If you go for the 2,6 it gona be a incredible wide powerrange with a GT35R turbo.I belive 3300rpm-7500rpm.

I also like to have a engine that rev higer but there is a lot of drawbacks.....

If you narrow the powerrange you gona need a short ratio dogbox and do gearchanges all the time.

I have a friend with a MR2 Turbo 2.0ltr with a powerband from 5000-9500rpm it revs like hell and it feels like you drive a Formula 1 engine but it doesend go fast on the track because you have to do to many gearchanges and when you rev it to 9500rpm the gearbox is using much longer time to synco the next gear.

We have simular weight on our cars and he have 100bhp more than me but he doesent have a chance to keep up with my Esprit on the track because I have a much broader powerrange 3600-7400rpm.

And I have much more power at the lower rpm then he so I pull easily from him out of the corners.

Whats important is the average BHP you have available in the RPM range you are using on the track.

NOT what you have at maximum.Because you are at very litle time at the max power rpm.

And I dont feel that going for this old tecknology turbos you are talking about is the way to go.

But If you are gona use antilag,then I would have used cheep turbos because that is gona eat turbos anyway.

Remember you told me that you wanted to be able to be faster than Ultimas etc....Its the track time that counts.Not what you have of paperspecs.

You are also gona end up using a good afermarked ECU.The stock one is to old and litle options to use on a race car you are talking about.

If you are gona race your Esprit there is no where to hide....and money talks....

If this is at trackdays level then I think its more walue to be a better driver.

I did some go-carting before and that is helping me a lot.

Edited August 30, 2006 by rydning

[rydning]

Hello m blur

I have some info from Garry and the 2,6 is only 87,5mm in stroke.

My friends with MR2Turbo have 86mm stroke running regulary to 9500rpm so I cant see why it shouldnt be rev happy with the 2,6...

If I was gona spend that much money I would have gone for as big desplasment as possible.....Nothing beats cubic inches....is the American slogan and to get wide powerband its pretty thru...At least on a turbo engine.

[M Blur]

Robin,

Got to disagree - I've also spoke to Garry - would need to use an aftermarket ecu for a stroker and for racing that sort of complication is a complete pain in the ass. That said you make a lot of good points above, none of which I was unaware of or particuarly disagree with.

Having spoken with John Welch @ WC - their Stage4 hybird To4E with ceramic ball bearings seems to be a set-up that is working and having success over in the US - replicating that set-up seems a good start rather than trying to do my own thing.

and through medium-fast turns - turbo reliability and heat dissipation should outweigh spool rate - on circuit it is never hard to keep the car in its power band - revs are always high - drop an extra cog if needs be - maybe one more change on the way up but the deficit is negligible as you can spend quite a lot of time at max throttle where bhp is more important than torque as acceleration slows. Besides I'll be running much lower weight in my car so inertia is reduced. I don't think the 2.6 is neccessary outside of a drag car imho - it's one of those nice to haves for bragging rights and dyno runs.. Gary was pretty of the opinion that was required for cars over 600/700bhp. You can easily have too much power on circuit.

I've tracked since 2000 but next year will be my first race season - I've no doubt car will develop over time in order to find the pace but you don't start by trying over-adventurous set-ups. For racing reliability and longevity is far more important than outright speed. I believe WC's Stage4 is best set-up for that purpose... for now.

Massive globfuls of torque is not neccesarily a good thing - you can simply spend most of your time fighting wheelspin - the GT35R still looks better suited to road and strip to me. It's too much for the car at this stage. Besides in terms of racing how much extra bhp you have is the least important consideration, turning, grip, balance, braking are far more important whereas the advatanges of another 50bhp on track can be pretty slim when you get into the next braking zone.

I wouldn't think of running anti-lag unless it was a short sprint and even think I'd have to think about it.

It comes down to the GT3076R vs. the To4E. My preference is to go with the tried and tested route - I can always try an GT later if I'm left wanting but I think building an engine fro strength is far more important to me than increasing capacity. If you're tracking a road car then that may not be true for you. Different priorities.

I'm just glad there are more of us out there on the blacktop trying these things out.

best rgds

[rydning]

Robin,

Got to disagree - I've also spoke to Garry - would need to use an aftermarket ecu for a stroker and for racing that sort of complication is a complete pain in the ass. That said you make a lot of good points above, none of which I was unaware of or particuarly disagree with.

Having spoken with John Welch @ WC - their Stage4 hybird To4E with ceramic ball bearings seems to be a set-up that is working and having success over in the US - replicating that set-up seems a good start rather than trying to do my own thing.

and through medium-fast turns - turbo reliability and heat dissipation should outweigh spool rate - on circuit it is never hard to keep the car in its power band - revs are always high - drop an extra cog if needs be - maybe one more change on the way up but the deficit is negligible as you can spend quite a lot of time at max throttle where bhp is more important than torque as acceleration slows. Besides I'll be running much lower weight in my car so inertia is reduced. I don't think the 2.6 is neccessary outside of a drag car imho - it's one of those nice to haves for bragging rights and dyno runs.. Gary was pretty of the opinion that was required for cars over 600/700bhp. You can easily have too much power on circuit.

I've tracked since 2000 but next year will be my first race season - I've no doubt car will develop over time in order to find the pace but you don't start by trying over-adventurous set-ups. For racing reliability and longevity is far more important than outright speed. I believe WC's Stage4 is best set-up for that purpose... for now.

Massive globfuls of torque is not neccesarily a good thing - you can simply spend most of your time fighting wheelspin - the GT35R still looks better suited to road and strip to me. It's too much for the car at this stage. Besides in terms of racing how much extra bhp you have is the least important consideration, turning, grip, balance, braking are far more important whereas the advatanges of another 50bhp on track can be pretty slim when you get into the next braking zone.

I wouldn't think of running anti-lag unless it was a short sprint and even think I'd have to think about it.

It comes down to the GT3076R vs. the To4E. My preference is to go with the tried and tested route - I can always try an GT later if I'm left wanting but I think building an engine fro strength is far more important to me than increasing capacity. If you're tracking a road car then that may not be true for you. Different priorities.

I'm just glad there are more of us out there on the blacktop trying these things out.

best rgds

I see your points.

I have asked you before about if you are folow any race regulation.But you didnt tell me.

And I agree with you to stay with the 2,2 now since you have to increase the weight in racing.

Have you got any specs of that stage 4 turbo?

Is it with a T3 turbine hose? If so I`m told that a stage 5 Hybrid Garret is rated at max to 480BHP

I had a stage 1 or 2 Garret Hybrid with T04E 50trim comressor and a T3 0,63AR Turbine witch was rated to max 420bhp.And blow at 1.45bar use on the track.

If the stage 4 that you are looking for is rated to 460-480bhp you are gona be very satisfyed.

Then it will be very simular to the GT3076R with 0.63AR turbinehouse.

I didnt understand what stage4 when you sayd that you are gona get 440rwhp at 1.25bar.

Can you clarify this in this tread so we dont tell people the wrong thing.

Can you get the specs on the turbo you are gona use?

[docf]

getting in kinda late here and didnt have time to read the whole thread.. I have a T3 super 60 which was built from my stock S4 core (t3 40 or 50??) using stock injectors (recently cleaned), an upgraded 255 lph fuel pump and a standalone boost controller which I use to vary the boost between 12,14,16 and 17.5 psi depending on driving condition and personal mood. I dont have dyno plots or datalogs to back up my subjective findings but from my perspective the car builds boost very quickly from 2500 rpm on and holds boost even at the highest settings all the way to redline. A couple of times I hit the limiter since the car just feels like it wants to make more and more power in the upper rev range. I have had no driveability issues, no killer lean conditions or other catastrophic failure since putting all that stuff in last winter. I started doing all this due to a very annoying boost drop above 5500 rpm in gears 3-5 which has been 100% cured. I spent ~$500 for the turbo rebuild/upgrade plus shipping to and from california (I am in NJ). I also run a number 2 chip if that matters to anyone.

most local turbo rebuilders can do this job for the same ballpark price.. including new seals, bearings, balancing, and resurfacing the casings.

[Pete_Inno]

I'm in the same boat. I was very disappointed in the way the ECU handled my boost, very inconsistent. I had my Turbo rebuilt to a T3/4 with some mods done to the compressor. Blue race chip, manual boost controller, hi performace exhaust and cat, and some nitrous to top it off. I also installed a better VDO boost gauge. I get a consistent 19 - 20 PSI of boost all the way to red. I've had this setup for over a year and the car is doing fine.

Edited September 3, 2006 by Pete_Inno

[esprits4de]

Just as a figure, where do you estimate the RWHP to be ?

[rydning]

Just as a figure, where do you estimate the RWHP to be ?

I have used a G-Tech to messure the rwhp and I use 2nd gear to get a good reading.

If I use 3rd you get a lower reading because of more aerodynamic drag.

And the kee to get good reliable readings is to have good calibration and a level surface and do several test and take the average.

I use to check my G-Tech instument with the time slips I get from dragrace. And the less difference it is the more true are the readings you get.

rwhp is the hp you get down in the surface that accelrate you.

rwhp=bhp-drivetrain losses

A rolling road is normaly the best way to get this messures but it have to be calibrated.

Does any have knowledge of how much drivetrain losses there is in the Esprit transaxle (gearbox)?

[M Blur]

will do Robin - I'm waiting on some cfm maps etc from John Welch and will send on so you can compare - that may decide the debate - cheers Jon

Does any have knowledge of how much drivetrain losses there is in the Esprit transaxle (gearbox)?

My local dyno shop estimates no more than 50bhp on a tranny set-up like the Renault UN1 vs. say a fwd layout with driveshaft etc - but no concrete figs. Will need a hub dyno to be sure.

[rydning]

Hello Turbo people.

Just want to clearify some issues about turbos.

Like mine GT3076R turbo with a bigger 0,82AR turbine house.

I belive this turbo can give air to 550bhp but that is only for very limited

time like dragrace etc.

I dont think it is possible to get more than 470-480 bhp for continius use

and probably only 450bhp on the smaler 0,63AR turbine house.

This is because of pressure build up in the exhaust manifoil. And if that pressure is higer than the pressure in the intake manifoil you are gone get into heat problems and you dont get any more hp only a lot of heatbuild up,EGT goes up and the internals in the engine is gona be to hot.And may be ending with engine failure etc....

I have a test here about a GT28RS witch is rated to 350bhp.

It was on a 1000cc 4stroke Yamaha snowmobine engine.Bender Racing a known performance company witch making turbo kits to this engine.

Is saying that you cant get more than 280bhp on this turbo safe.

But when they was doing extreme testing.They got it up to 378bhp on race fuel for a very short blast only 3-4 second run.

So make sure you ask the manufactury of that turbo what is the max safe bhp you can get when bying turbos.

A lot of companys are rating their turbos for dragrace use and that is not what you can use on a roadcourse.

Robin

[rydning]

Whats up?No more turbotalk?

[esprits4de]

Whats up?No more turbotalk?

Has anyone ever tried supercharging with a compressor?

Or even RamAir like in the x180 / F1 type ?

I wonder if the variable turbo vanes have yet made it to the aftermarket ..

[rydning]

Has anyone ever tried supercharging with a compressor?

Or even RamAir like in the x180 / F1 type ?

I wonder if the variable turbo vanes have yet made it to the aftermarket ..

I have 3 turbos here with variable nosle vane geometry.

Aerocharger53 and 66.They are old turbos from the 90`s with Internal lubrication system as on turbine engines and are still very expensive to buy used..And I use them on hige performance 2stroke snowmobile engines to get incredible performance . They will work on 4 stroke also but on the 2 stokes they woork brilliant because of litle torque at low rev to get boost early.

They have been using this type of turbos for many year now on diesel engines.

And was it you that told me they was using this on the new Porsche?

But I think they are pretty pricey....

I think that should be possible to use 2 of the diesel turbos...But have heared that they will not last the hige temperature of a petrol engine.But I will like to get 1st hand info on this or test it my self.

[M Blur]

Buick GNX had a variable geometry turbo if memory serves correctly.

I have a carbon roof mounted ram air box - for the size of engine and estimate of 1.5 bar the box has beendeisgned with approx a 30 litre capacity - will then need to play with intake pipes from box to turbo - keeping distance as short as as straight as possible.

John Welch (WC Engineering) has said he saw a consistent 440bhp rwhp on the X180R cars - using his Stage4 ceramic bearing To4E - I think this turbo has been deisgned to give consistent top end flow even if it spools a little slower. My intention is to use a custom manifold and exhaust set-up to ensure scanvenge is as quick as poss with as little back pressure as poss from turbo to exhaust outlet. I'm still waiting on more details re turbine size etc etc but he said it was on a par with a Gt35R for size.

I also heard the diesel turbos wouldn't last the temps of a petrol engine and there amy have even been some long-term problems now coming through on the common-rail diesels that are more efficient and produce more heat but this has been only hearsay so far.

Edited September 7, 2006 by M Blur

[ragingfool35]

i was probably the one talking about the variable geometry turbos

for gas engines and one of the first apps being the new porsche.

they are still oem only

there are 2 types, one that vary "stator" vanes (kinda oxymoron there)

and one that varies the inlet area by a simpler means sort of like an exhaust power valve used on sportbikes.

something similar to a boost controller would need to be used in conjunction with gm ecm signals to control the turbo

would definetly be worth the effort

would give the 4 banger similar power and torque curves to the v8

i spoke to john welch a couple of years ago about him doing it

he said he had bad experience with the old generation units

and was not thrilled with the idea of trying again

maybe u guys could talk him into it when the time is right

if not, i'll definitely work on it myself

[M Blur]

I believe Alpina developed sth very similar with Garret for the new B5 and B7 cars.. that would indicate sth will coem out soon.

Plus no mention of twin scroll which is a widely available option..

[esprits4de]

One thing I was wondering on, as with the regular setup, the turbo emitts a fair amount of heat in the engine bay, using the stage I or II ( II is my choice) wont that be upped by quite a bit ? I guess the exh.manifold, the turbo and the down pipes should be wrapped in insulating heat barriers. Will that hurt the turbo ?

I saw Dermot diverting the unused air intake directly to his turbo.....

[esprits4de]

DOES ANY ONE have a broken S4, SE turbo for sale ?

[Paula&Marcus]

DOES ANY ONE have a broken S4, SE turbo for sale ?

How about asking Rens, he should have 2 broken ones now ...