TURBO replacement

[Guest rflowers]

Any one replace their S4s turbo with a different model?

[rens914]

How about asking Rens, he should have 2 broken ones now ...

Marcus

you are right

i have 2 broken turbo's now (2 marcus turbo's)

but it's nothing to make fun about

and ! they are not in my possesion but in yours

the first time your diagnose was that something got into the intake side

the second time the nut on the intake side came off and the achsel was broken ?

The nut coming off ?? how is that possible ! what was first The nut or the achsel.

the nut must never come off !

two turbo's broken with about 5 minutes running time in total ????

The first time i asked for a proper diagnose

very important for me before i fit another (new) turbo.

very ancious to hear from Garett what the propper reasons were

what if after all we get the same diagnose for both Turbo's.

and it's a different one than "something flew in the intake side"

we have a saying in holland : Don't bite the hand that feeds you

but for me the biggest problem is

small bits of titanium from the damaged turbo's in my engine (2x)

you must know how that feels

so don't make bad yokes

Edited September 10, 2006 by rens914

[M Blur]

DOES ANY ONE have a broken S4, SE turbo for sale ?

I can sell you a working but well used Sport300 turbo.. any good..?

[Paula&Marcus]

Rens,

Sorry, for my last post. Maybe I was in a strange mood, when I wrote this ...

Please accept my apology.

BTW, your turbo has its shaft broken in two halfes. Exactly where the bearing is located. The compressor-wheel-security-nut came loose AFTER the shaft broke in two pieces. Thats what I believe.

The other turbo that blew first had its shaft not broken, but it was heavily bent at the very same location. Right where the bearing is located.

Don't you see the pattern ?!

Rens, Its very very unlikely that two different turbos blow up within 1 minute or so. Once installed in your car. I personally suspect that there is something wrong with your engine. I personally believe it has to do with oil supply (I know you dont believe that ... you told me that you have lots of oil coming out of these pipes ... but it has to come out with proper pressure and volume)

I hope we will get a proper answer after the inspection of the two turbos.

Cheers

Marcus

Marcus

you are right

i have 2 broken turbo's now (2 marcus turbo's)

but it's nothing to make fun about

and ! they are not in my possesion but in yours

the first time your diagnose was that something got into the intake side

the second time the nut on the intake side came off and the achsel was broken ?

The nut coming off ?? how is that possible ! what was first The nut or the achsel.

the nut must never come off !

two turbo's broken with about 5 minutes running time in total ????

The first time i asked for a proper diagnose

very important for me before i fit another (new) turbo.

very ancious to hear from Garett what the propper reasons were

what if after all we get the same diagnose for both Turbo's.

and it's a different one than "something flew in the intake side"

we have a saying in holland : Don't bite the hand that feeds you

but for me the biggest problem is

small bits of titanium from the damaged turbo's in my engine (2x)

you must know how that feels

so don't make bad yokes

[f1karting]

I need to replace my S4 stock turbo as it just does not cut right anymore. There are some alternatives to consider and I would be greatful for other peoples experiences on these alternatives. ( especialy in regard to drivability, iow I usualy drive the car in a very hilly area and tend to work the car between 4000-6000 rpm with quick up and down shifts.)

a. WC-Engineering Stage I

b. WC-Engineering Stage II

c. Garrett GT3076R

d. whateverelse Turbo.

I would like to get around 420-440 HP continuous power.

Mike Rodgreques (mchlrodrigues) on this forum has 426 dynoed hp in his S3 and he knows all about what turbo does what.. he has tried them all... he is very much on top of the tuning.. so I would suggest a pm to him.. J

[rydning]

Don't you see the pattern ?!

Rens, Its very very unlikely that two different turbos blow up within 1 minute or so. Once installed in your car. I personally suspect that there is something wrong with your engine. I personally believe it has to do with oil supply (I know you dont believe that ... you told me that you have lots of oil coming out of these pipes ... but it has to come out with proper pressure and volume)

I hope we will get a proper answer after the inspection of the two turbos.

Cheers

Marcus

To Rens

Are you using any oil restictor before the turbo?

And I`m also agree with Marcus

[rydning]

Mike Rodgreques (mchlrodrigues) on this forum has 426 dynoed hp in his S3 and he knows all about what turbo does what.. he has tried them all... he is very much on top of the tuning.. so I would suggest a pm to him.. J

I agree with you.Michael hav tuned his Esprit for more than 10 years know.And I have been in contact with him.He is very knowledgeable about Esprit tuning.He have done a LOT.

I know he is using the GT3071R and I think he sayd to me he was using the 0.63AR turbine house.

And as I have mention earlier in this tread the GT3071R is probably the best turbo to get 400+ honest Bhp

with early spool up.

I think Michael is using a litle restictiv exhaust after the turbo with cat.Because of the California emission rules.

As I have sayd earlier in this tread i get 1.5bar of boost at 3900rpm with a GT3076R 0,82AR turbine.

And I belive you can get that GT3071R to boost 1.3 bar at 3300rpm with 104 deg cam timing lobe centers and a free flow 3" exhaust with out a cat.

From ATP`s page

Turbo, Turbine Wheel, Compressor Wheel, Flow Capacity

GT28RS 53.85mm 60mm 350 HP

GT2871R 53.85mm 71mm 400 HP

GT3071RWG 56.5mm 71mm 450 HP

GT3071R 60mm 71mm 450 HP

GT30R 60mm 76mm 500 HP

GT35/40R 68mm 82mm 600 HP

Take a look at the close turbine and compressor wheel diameter on the GT3071R thats why I think this turbo woork so well.As I have sayd earlier I was dissepointed with the GT2871R.And you probably should know why now.

Edited September 11, 2006 by rydning

[rens914]

Rens, Its very very unlikely that two different turbos blow up within 1 minute or so. Once installed in your car. I personally suspect that there is something wrong with your engine. I personally believe it has to do with oil supply (I know you dont believe that ... you told me that you have lots of oil coming out of these pipes ... but it has to come out with proper pressure and volume

Marcus

I know it's very unlikely that 2 turbo's blow up in 1 minute with 2 different reasons

thats why i asked Turbo Hoet to look at the foto's (from both damaged turbo's)

they directly without doubt claim that its a oil problem

and thats a pitty

i asked for a diagnose after braking the first turbo and your diagnose was "something came in the inlet".

I belived you (beiing the specialist) and didnt look further.

result 2 broken turbos

now your diagnose has changed !

The issue is that if you give a diagnose it has to be correct

You cant change this the other day. whats it going to be tomorrow ?

[Paula&Marcus]

Rens,

The first broken Turbo I received from you had a damaged compressor wheel, a damaged compressor housing, a bent main shaft and damaged bearings, thats why we did not repair this turbo, but sent you a complete new built one with identical specs.

The first diagnosis when I look at a turbo like this and the owner tells me that it happened 500 meters after the installation is that I think/believe that something was sucked into it. This actually happens from time to time that a washer or nut or some other little piece remains in the inlet hose and gets sucked into the turbo right after some meters when you first open up the gas a little bit more ...

And please be honest Rens, you constantly kept telling me that your engine is 100% and that the oil and water supply is 100% and that your son is a car mechanic and that he knows what he is doing. Can you remember the phone call when I asked you about the oil supply and you preached me that oil supply is not a problem at all and that you and your son have checked this !?

When I got the pics of your second destroyed turbo with the shaft broken in two pieces exactly where the bearing is located I realized that it actually must be a oil supply problem, nothing else.

Rens, its not fair when you make me responsible for your second turbo failure, just because I maybe did not realize an oil supply problem with your engine at first "sight". I

[rens914]

you were not not 500km away

I still have the e-mails from you were you declare that you have examined the broken turbo and something definitly flew in the inlet side. you also declared the turbo was going to be rebuilt.

you changed your strategie and sent me a new turbo.

you let me believe the diagnose of something flying in was correct.

so ! there is no reason for me to think of oil problems knowing that my original turbo never had oil problems

with a proper diagnose i would never have fitted the 2nd turbo without checking the oil pressure and circulation first.

without A B does not happen

A was a foulty diagnose

i trusted your word and didnt look further.

i have sent pictures to turbo hoet and ce turbos now

both declare that its very obvious. they can see from the pics that it is a oil problem

Who examined my turbo ? Did someone examine it or is this a bad yoke too

Dont make bad yokes and give faulty diagnoses but take the responsability and solve this problem with me

Edited September 13, 2006 by rens914

[Paula&Marcus]

Rens,

I can hear/feel what you want.

You want a new turbo for free from me. Am I right ?

Now ... you want a new turbo, because I told you that your first destroyed turbo looked like something flew in it. Yes, I told you that, because for me and for the turbo-shop-guy it looked like this.

You know, that you wanted to get your turbo back ASAP. Time was very important for you. So we decided not to rebuild your turbo but sent you a new one instead.

When your new turbo blew up again you realized that maybe something else with your engine and/or installation was wrong. And you remembered what I told you about your first turbo. Right ?

Yes, you are right. Maybe I was not right when I told you that something has flown in it. Maybe I was not spot on and it has a different reasons why your turbos are dying ...

Please believe me, I'm not the one who actually is responsible for your turbo disaster.

If words are that risky, I will stop all my activities on all mailing lists and forums and I also will not answer and give advices and tips on the phone anymore, because this is way too risky for me.

I'm sure that sometimes my diagnoses are not spot on ... but I do my very best to help.

Imagine, very often people order clutches (or gearbox parts or other parts) and they also phone me and we sometimes talk a long time on the phone about the problems/failures. And of course, I also tell them what I think/believe that the reason for the initial failure was. If all people would behave like you, when I'm not spot on with my diagnosis and would force me to send a new part for free, then I could close my shop very soon.

Rens, believe me I really want to help to solve your problem, but now I'm not sure what to do.

I cannot send you a new Turbo for free.

I also cannot rebuild your blown up one for free.

I even hestitate to rebuild your blown one (not for free) ...

because I fear that you maybe blow it up the 3rd time. When will this stop ?

It's a bit of a dilemma now. Whatever I do now it might be wrong in your eyes !

If you or someone else has an idea how to get out of this paradoxon, please tell me !!!!

Marcus

PS: BTW, according to MAP24 the shortest distance from your location in the Netherlands to my location in Bavaria is exactly 684km

you were not not 500km away

I still have the e-mails from you were you declare that you have examined the broken turbo and something definitly flew in the inlet side. you also declared the turbo was going to be rebuilt.

you changed your strategie and sent me a new turbo.

you let me believe the diagnose of something flying in was correct.

so ! there is no reason for me to think of oil problems knowing that my original turbo never had oil problems

with a proper diagnose i would never have fitted the 2nd turbo without checking the oil pressure and circulation first.

without A B does not happen

A was a foulty diagnose

i trusted your word and didnt look further.

i have sent pictures to turbo hoet and ce turbos now

both declare that its very obvious. they can see from the pics that it is a oil problem

Who examined my turbo ? Did someone examine it or is this a bad yoke too

Dont make bad yokes and give faulty diagnoses but take the responsability and solve this problem with me

Edited September 13, 2006 by Paula&Marcus

[CarlC]

... Posting my 2p from the bunker ...

If I took my car to a specialst with a broken part and they fitted a new or recon part which then broke just after it was fitted then I would expect them to replace that part at no cost to me. They are the specilist they are paid to do a though job and have the expertise to sort out the 'problem'.

If I sent away a broken part got a new or replacement part and I fitted this myself and it then broke shortly after fitting I would need to know if the part was defective. If it was deemed that the part was not defective and the failure was caused by something else then thats my problem to sort it out. Advice or otherwise its my issue, as I made the decision to take that advice which was offered.

I know this is a tough subject and Im sure many of us can relate to the difficulties on both sides. I hope an amicable compromise can be found.

Edited September 13, 2006 by CarlC

[Artie]

... Posting my 2p from the bunker ...

If I took my car to a specialst with a broken part and they fitted a new or recon part which then broke just after it was fitted then I would expect them to replace that part at no cost to me. They are the specilist they are paid to do a though job and have the expertise to sort out the 'problem'.

If I sent away a broken part got a new or replacement part and I fitted this myself and it then broke shortly after fitting I would need to know if the part was defective. If it was deemed that the part was not defective and the failure was caused by something else then thats my problem to sort it out. Advice or otherwise its my issue, as I made the decision to take that advice which was offered.

I know this is a tough subject and Im sure many of us can relate to the difficulties on both sides. I hope an amicable compromise can be found.

In the States we call this "liability" and most aftermarket if not all aftermarket specialists offer "no warranty, written or implied on any vehicle modified from OEM specifications". Meaning that in the US if you buy a part and install it yourself, defective or not and it blows up your turbo, engine, transmission, you have accepted liability for any harm.... That being said, some specialists will offer to help with a rebuild or parts or something but we cannot hold the specialists liable for every broken item, part or missed diagnosis. Rens, I feel your pain, had an engine in my RX7 spit pieces 4 miles after install, but fact of the matter was, I didn't clean and inspect the oil cooler and the chunks of engine #1 were still in it and destroyed engine #2, now the specialist did help me out on the rebuild but I assure you it wasn't a "gimme". Please try to work with Marcus and find a solution you can both agree on(perhaps on email). Every performance car owner has at some point in their life cycle of cars had a bad experience with a shop or specialist, but don't drag it out on an international forum as this slanders Marcus, I've never even bought anything from him but he has offered me invaluable advice on my Esprit to the contrary. I don't have a side here, just trying to express my feelings on the matter.

Artie

[Htown]

I think I can solve this with two questions...

1. Did the owner install a new turbo oil inlet feed line?

2. Was the customer instructed to install a new turbo oil inlet feed line?

This is so much of a common cause of new turbo installs, that I actually had to sign and date a form stating that I was advised of such before installing mine.

Otherwise... if I may be so bold, take this dispute somewhere else.

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi Craig,

What you say is very interesting ...

I always thought, if the hoses look good and are not bent/kinked there should be no problem.

... could you please explain where the problem is with these hoses.

Cheers

Marcus

I think I can solve this with two questions...

1. Did the owner install a new turbo oil inlet feed line?

2. Was the customer instructed to install a new turbo oil inlet feed line?

This is so much of a common cause of new turbo installs, that I actually had to sign and date a form stating that I was advised of such before installing mine.

Otherwise... if I may be so bold, take this dispute somewhere else.

[M Blur]

Rens/Marcus - perhaps better you guys discuss in pvt to save any misunderstandings (pref face to face or by phone) - I doubt our pennies will help you resolve the issue. It also stops the topic going any more OT..

Bibs?

Edited September 14, 2006 by M Blur

[Paula&Marcus]

Jon,

We already stopped discussing this yesterday.

I

[CarlC]

You should not need to apologise for the series of posts regarding the issue.

It may not have been the best way for either of your to progress the matter but at least you both have been able to put your views and positions across in response the inital posts.

This is after all a forum for a small co-dependant community of owners and some specialists. All to often we would only get to hear one side of the issue and 'no names' mentioned.

Sorry to continue this slightly OT thread but just felt strongly on the matter.

Let the replacement turbo talk continue....

Do VVG turbos have to be computer controlled or can they work machanically based on rpm or something?

[M Blur]

Jon,

We already stopped discussing this yesterday. I

Edited September 14, 2006 by M Blur

[Htown]

Hi Craig,

What you say is very interesting ...

I always thought, if the hoses look good and are not bent/kinked there should be no problem.

... could you please explain where the problem is with these hoses.

Cheers

Marcus

Well, all I know is that it was such a big deal to my supplier, that he actually had a pre-made form for each and every turbo he sold. There is apparently the possiblity of oil sludge becoming dislodged when the feed line is removed from the old turbo and moved around/ handled. At the very least, I would recommend removal and complete cleaning of the line (if it appears to be in good shape) before re-installing.

I have the form somewhere at home in my files, I'll see if I can dig it up.

[esprits4de]

Hmm, after the side issues mentioned above I have learned that once I will get the new turbo and other materials, I 'll have it all installed. I am mechanically versed but if some one else screws up the deal I will at least have the chance to have someone to take the responsibility for it.

[esprits4de]

I started a thread about Turbos a while back, cant find it anymore.

Anyway, as I was looking for advice and have one alot of research on the topic, I decided and ordered one.

and today it finally arrived :

WC Engineering Stage II :

once installed and running I will post MHO and experience.

So far :

[Bibs]

Topics merged

[esprits4de]

Topics merged

SWEET !

[Bibs]

No worries matey. New turbo looks lovely, how does it go? Quick?