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Oil passageways?

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So I'm hoping that I don't need this info but here goes......

Does anyone know if there is a diagram of the oil passageways on the V8?

Specifically, what i want to know is, (let's say hypothetically!) one of the oil passageways was blocked leading to one of the rod bearings, would it be possible to clean it out (with an oil gallery brush or compressed air or vacuum) without taking the entire engine apart for a rebuild?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks,

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Even if you could would you want to?

Where can the debris go otehr than deeper into the rod bearing?

Blocked rod bearing oil passage = knackered bearing in no time flat.

Blocked rod bearing hole usually indicates a spun bearing.

also the debris would have had to come through the oil filter

plus debris is highly unlikely just to be in the rod bearing.

Why would you suspect a blocked oil feed?


Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress

Porsche 924 Turbo - Parts chaser

Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

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the oil feed & return is all clear illustrated within the workshop book/pdf

-your main gallery is LH side of the engine block, that is why the oil filter is also there ..pressure comes from the oil-pump in the front cover and goes via the 'pressure relieve valve' into the LH side channel/or back into the sump. Pressurised bypasses are there for the turbo oil-feed and for the 4 twin spray nozzles (piston cooling)


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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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Hi Gunter,

Thanks, but while i think i have the parts list, i don't have the workshop manual. Is it available online? Please pm me if you have info.

Rich,

Well, I am hoping I am just being paranoid, but my freshly rebuilt V8 is making a rattling sound that to my ear is suspiciously like the original rod bearing sound that caused the rebuild. Originally the #2 rod bearing had spun and the crank was ovaled out.

So everything is new now ( new crankshaft, new bearings, seals, hylomar liner sealant, etc) but the rattle may be back. Just found out there are some metal bits in the oil pan too.

So I'm trying to think of what could be causing this to happen again (if it really is). It hasn't been driven hard at all and is still in the break-in period (about 1000 miles). Temp is normally between 80-100 and hasn't gone above 103 degrees max.

My thinking was that perhaps the original cause of the failure wasn't the Loctite liner sealant like we had thought, but maybe a blocked oil passage. The car had sat for a long time before I bought it and every other system was gummed up (coolant and even washer fluid had sludge in it). The mechanic said that the oil had a burnt smell from that bearing on the first rebuild.

So if the root problem is a lack of lubrication, I am just wondering if I am in for another full rebuild or if there is another way to fix. Thanks for any suggestions.

Edited by ESPREE

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Did you build it yourself or did someone build it for you?

If the latter get them to take it back ASAP


Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress

Porsche 924 Turbo - Parts chaser

Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

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Someone else did the work. Yes, it is back with him now.

He has been excellent overall so I'm hoping that we can resolve this together. I have faith he will make things right, but I wanted to do some research myself to see if I can offer any useful input.

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When an Esprit engine grenades for whatever reason, the metal bits would tend to circulate throughout the oil system which includes the oil lines running to the front coolers. It's almost impossible to clean all the metal bits out of the lines and coolers which usually necessitates replacement. Unless they were replaced, or at the very least flushed with a high pressure flushing system, I'd suspect residual shrapnel from the original breakdown.

Did your mechanic take any steps to make sure the oil passages were clear when he had the block stripped?

Edited by lotus4s

1995 S4s

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I know that the oil lines to the front oil coolers were replaced because one of them had a leak, but to be honest I don't know about the internal passageways in the engine block itself. I would hope they were cleaned, but maybe some gunk was hiding.

Those are what I am curious about now (if the block passages can be cleaned without doing a full rebuild).

I suppose a secondary question would also be what engine bits would now need to get replaced (again) on a second rebuild. Obviously new bearings would be needed, but what about seals, bolts, liner sealant, etc.? It's only been about 1000 miles and a couple of months, but I don't want to skimp at this point if a rebuild is needed. Anyone done back to back rebuilds or have thoughts on what would be essential to replace again so soon? Thanks all,

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Ok, one other thought to throw into the mix...

I've heard that a lot of bearing wear can occur when first trying to start an engine. Because of the hot start issue (that is now resolved), there was a LOT of cranking of the engine in the past few weeks for troubleshooting and just trying to get it started. I thought that the oil pressure should come up very quickly once the crank is turning (regardless of whether the cylinders are firing), but does anyone recommend a pre-oiler?

Of course if the bearing that is worn is the same one as the first time I would suspect a deeper issue than just dry starts, but maybe that is what pushed it over. Anyone tried these with a V8 Esprit?

Edited by ESPREE

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some questions (as you not have done the rework -or as it maybe wasn't done at all ..hard to say at last )

Have you lubed all bearings with engine oil on reassembly/refit of the crank ?

Have you flushed the block in concentrated citric & alcalic baths in order to soften any residue of old oil and coal mixtures set up in the passage ways ?

Does the sound come from the heads (as for the followers being to soft with a lost in stored oil-pressure with this high grade modern oil) -or is it a sound you can feel/hear in the sump ?

As you have undone the sum, how do the bigend schells look like ? -how do the main-bearing shells look like ?

Are the support bearings for the crank axis all in place and with the right size (four of them) ?

Is the 'intermediate chain drive' in good order ?

Wouldn't be easier to let Mike Sekinger do the rebuild, instead of 'someone else' over there next to you ? ... as he was named or seen from the other forum users here as the man for this job, and he seemed to be happy for himself with this position over the past years ...

Edited by Günter

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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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If the engine was totally rebuilt, the engine should have been hot tanked with the liners taken out and the oil lines blown out and the oil coolers hydrostaically cleaned. If you found "some metal bits" in the pan, post rebuild, that is not a good sign. But the mechanic should be responsible for his work. I would flat bed it to his shop and not run the car unless in his presence. You should not have to second guess his work.......unless he is your cousin!


The Older I get the Faster I was

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I usually blow out the oil journels with compressed air - if I dont have even flow out of every journel (from multiple directions - using different journels to input the air) I start the investigation. RTV "floaties" that have fallen off oil pans, etc have caused failures in many engines.

I'm also hyper-paranoid about changing oil after a rebuild. Because of all the moly assebmly lube used during rebuild (reason cranking an engine for the 1st time after a rebuild should not be a problem) it will turn the brand new oil black in a matter of seconds. I usually start the engine, run for up to an hour (get a full heat cycle) then change the oil & filter (cut open the filter and inspect - Longacre raging products has an super cool tool for this). Based upon my findings the engine either comes out or gets new oil. Run for 50-100 miles & then change oil & filter (cut open filter again). Then one last time after another 500 miles on the 3rd oil change - then back to regular intervals.

Yes each oil change with Mobil1 & filter will run you $65-70 but this will allow you to catch a problem like a bearing before it trashes a crank or rod - aka - requires machine shop work. And you are also using the oil to "flush" the engine. there is a lot of places for particals to hide in an engine and oil cooling system - this process will greatly reduce their change to damage anything if stragglers did remain behind after an engine build. But I'm on the extreme side of "cautious" when it comes to this.

I hope your rebuilder (this is so "basic engine rebuild 101" I hate to mention it) Plasti-gauged the main & rod bearings when they installed the new bearings & didn't simply slap in new bearings and torque down the end caps and call it good....

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Thanks all for the input. I just spoke with him and the bearing that is affected now is a different one (#7 this time instead of #3), so a clogged secondary passageway doesn't seem likely (because I would think the same bearing would go).

But I did look at the V8 lubrication diagram (and the old crankshaft) and found that the oil holes on the crank itself do line up top to bottom, so it will be possible to stick a gallery brush or even coat hanger into the oil channel (while flushing) to see if there is any blockage. The compressed air idea is great too - to see if the flow is even across all of the oil outputs.

To answer some of the questions.... yes, the oil has been changed 3 times since the rebuild, though I don't think he has been cutting them open. The block was sent out to be cleaned ("steamed") and flushed during the rebuild. He has rebuilt many engines so I am sure the basics were hit like the plastigage (though I didn't ask specifically). He said he will be checking the rods and caps for roundness as well. The engine is out of the car and new bearings are on the way while he continues to look at it.

I'm still thinking that no matter what we find I want to add a pre-oiler and a "real" oil pressure gauge (instead of just the warning light). Any dry cranking can be causing wear, and maybe the unburnt gasoline during all that cranking diluted the oil a bit too. I think it got a few years worth of cranking in the past week or two leading up to this. Having a real oil pressure gauge just seems like a good idea to see what is going on.

So any suggestions for pre-oilers or pressure guages? I was thinking of these pre-oilers:

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=2410

or

www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/filtration/tsb%20fl-2004-11-11%20ams-oiler.pdf

And maybe a "glowshift" gauge:

http://www.glowshiftdirect.com/oil-pressure-gauges.aspx

Any recommendations?

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the V8 does have a port within the oil-filter adaptor-block that you see there, this one added LH side of the engine-block ..it is just blocked on the later cars by a plug 8as for being useless in the '98 on instrumentation style -the V8 with old cockpit style use this feature -and the 'pressure transducer' part is listed in the V8 partslist -was an standard item)


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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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the V8 does have a port within the oil-filter adaptor-block

Thanks!

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page 472 shows it on the 'V8 intro' picture ..next to the oil-filter

page 474 ..the picture there shows it ..in this case named 'oil gauge sender' in this illustration (this is also a possible point to measure with a pressure tester-line fitted, while doing a spirited run with the car ..so you can check the 'low pressure warning' sensor in the main gallery.

page 482 shows it too..

..and of course the parts list you have

Edited by Günter

*********************************************************************

to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

*********************************************************************

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Just an update - the bearing was scored and grooved as if from debris (not a lack of lubrication like I had thought).

The only parts of the original lubrication system left are the oil coolers, and since the Esprit workshop manual recommends replacing those anyway we are going to get a new set. They were indeed flushed for the rebuild, but who knows, there might have been some bits lingering somewhere. At least the crank is brand new so it can be machined and handle the next bearing size.

Will go ahead with the Accusump pre-oiler and gauges just in case. Thanks all for the input! Should be done in a week or so. :)

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Did you get it back on the road?

Just an update - the bearing was scored and grooved as if from debris (not a lack of lubrication like I had thought).

The only parts of the original lubrication system left are the oil coolers, and since the Esprit workshop manual recommends replacing those anyway we are going to get a new set. They were indeed flushed for the rebuild, but who knows, there might have been some bits lingering somewhere. At least the crank is brand new so it can be machined and handle the next bearing size.

Will go ahead with the Accusump pre-oiler and gauges just in case. Thanks all for the input! Should be done in a week or so. :)

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Did you get it back on the road?

Not quite! Here's the story (feel free to chime in if anyone has any constructive advice)...

We replaced the rod bearings and the oil coolers, and also added the oil pressure gauge. But before I even got the car back there was another rattle that sounded very similar to the initial rod knock. I basically drove it home and then back again. Since this would be the third time I've heard the rod knock since I've gotten the car, I was pretty sure it was the rod bearings.

There was a big crack in the muffler that might have been the culprit, so we took that off and got it welded. While it was out getting welded we dropped the oil pan to check the bearings just in case. Wow that was a pain (literally)! The pan got stuck between the frame and the transmission for maybe 45 minutes and my finger got smashed in the process. Eventually we got it off and my finger got drained at the local walk-in clinic to make the pain bearable. One must suffer for Esprit ownership... ;)

Anyway, the good news was that the rod bearings looked pretty good. Granted they only have maybe 100 miles on them, but only one or two minor score lines - nothing that could be causing the rattle sound. we got another new set since they are relatively cheap and it was all apart anyway.

BUT, the oil was pretty dark and has a metallic shimmer to it in the oil pan (again). And as it was all going back together, my mechanic (bless his eyes) noticed that the two thrust washers for the crankshaft were loose, and the crank itself had a little bit of forward and back play in it (I.e. you can move it back and forth a little with a screwdriver). Not sure if that could be the source of the rattle noise or not, and we are also not sure how long it has been there. Maybe it's always been like that, or maybe it's new.

So now the hunt is on again to try and figure out why there is play in the crank, and also why there is so much metal "dust" in the oil. Perhaps one of the cams has been shedding debris into the system and reeking all of this havoc, or maybe the main bearings will tell us something useful. The machine shop guy is hopefully coming next week to measure every possible point on the main caps, cams, etc.

I'll post back when I get some more info.

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first question -why havent you inspected the engine in full ..instead of all this 'try & error' ?!

second, there is an specific measurement given in the workshopmanual for the "free play" on the crank ..and it also shows number an position of the shims !


*********************************************************************

to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

*********************************************************************

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Hi Gunter,

Im not sure, my guess is that since almost everything is new since the rebuild he's been trying to pinpoint it without having to completely start over again.

Thanks for the info about the crank. Any idea where I can find that measurement in there?

The machine shop guy said he thinks that just replacing the thrust washers will take care of it, but for my part it's hard to know if whatever problem we are seeing now is still from the same original cause or if it's been something new each time.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the end is in sight!

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Hi Larry

Thanks for that - I've been using that diagram a lot for figuring out the oil passages.

Edited by ESPREE

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For future reference, I found the V8 crankshaft endfloat measurement. Page 389-390 in the manual (V8 specs, section TDK):

Crankshaft

Endfloat dimension: 0.10 - 0.30 mm (0.004 - 0.012 in)

controlled by: Selective thrust washers either side of no.4 main bearing

I would say mine was more like an 1/8 of an inch or a couple millimeters.

I am hoping that the new set of thrust washers will bring it back to normal. I am unsure what "selective thrust washers" means, since JAE reports there are no other sizes of thrust washers besides standard.

Anyone ever had any issues with crankshaft endfloat or thrust washers?

Edited by ESPREE

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'Selective' means that that you select the appropriate size thrust washer to obtain the required clearance. That said, JAE are correct that only one size is listed in the service parts list.

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