Oil passageways?

[ESPREE]

'Selective' means that that you select the appropriate size thrust washer to obtain the required clearance. That said, JAE are correct that only one size is listed in the service parts list.

Yes, that is interesting!

Well, I should find out in the next few days if the standard size will work or not. I'll post back with results.

[Günter]

you should be able to measure it specifically, just by usage of propper tool (a feeler gauge for this instant..!) ..and given the word 'selective' .the shims nee to be positioned in a selective way ..not as you like, as those are 'sided' (if that is the right word for meaning 'have a front [wear] side and a baxck side ..and even somewhat like a knind of nose there on one..)

[ESPREE]

An update... The thrust washers that came out and the new ones both had the same measurements. But he replaced all of the main crank caps (that hold the crank in place) and he reports that it is much much tighter now.

So either there was some difference in the main caps or just the process of taking it all apart and putting it back together had some effect.

Either way, things are tighter now so hopefully it will get reassembled today and we can see if there are any noises still present. I am hopeful that the end is in sight and I can start driving this car!

[sailorbob]

If the caps have been replaced then it should be line bored to ensure a consistent and parallel bore.

[ESPREE]

Can that be done with the engine still in the car?

[sailorbob]

I wouldn't have thought so, I'm only aware of that being done on large industrial engines (but I may be wrong).

[gmendoza]

An update... The thrust washers that came out and the new ones both had the same measurements. But he replaced all of the main crank caps (that hold the crank in place) and he reports that it is much much tighter now.

So either there was some difference in the main caps or just the process of taking it all apart and putting it back together had some effect.

Either way, things are tighter now so hopefully it will get reassembled today and we can see if there are any noises still present. I am hopeful that the end is in sight and I can start driving this car!

WTF!!!!1 Either you misunderstood or this guy has NO f'n clue what he's doing. The main caps are matched to the block and only go in one slot. If a cap is replaced, then all caps must be line bored due to a chance the journals will be out of round and the axis will be off. Then oversized bearings will most likely be installed . No, that block cannot be linebored in the car. Here's how you do it:

Also, 1/2 the thrust bearing rides on the block, 1/2 rides on the cap. Just replacing the cap will create a mismatch on the surface where the thrust bearing rides

When an Esprit engine grenades for whatever reason, the metal bits would tend to circulate throughout the oil system which includes the oil lines running to the front coolers. It's almost impossible to clean all the metal bits out of the lines and coolers which usually necessitates replacement. Unless they were replaced, or at the very least flushed with a high pressure flushing system, I'd suspect residual shrapnel from the original breakdown.

Did your mechanic take any steps to make sure the oil passages were clear when he had the block stripped?

Just thinking out loud here. It apprears oil flows from the pan, through the pump, to the coolers, to the filter, then the oil galleys. So if there is debris in the oil coolers, wouldn't they be caught by the oil filter?

Edited August 7, 2012 by gmendoza

[ESPREE]

Hi Gonzalo,

Thanks for the input...

The main caps are matched to the block and only go in one slot. If a cap is replaced, then all caps must be line bored due to a chance the journals will be out of round and the axis will be off.

Hmmm.... Well maybe I misunderstood, but I don't think so. I'll have to followup with him.

Also, 1/2 the thrust bearing rides on the block, 1/2 rides on the cap. Just replacing the cap will create a mismatch on the surface where the thrust bearing rides

I'm not sure I understand where the problem would be here. If the thrust washer is meant to be the wearable item between the block and the crank, why would it be a problem to replace the washer or the cap? There is a little slot in the block where the thrust washer fits.

Just thinking out loud here. It apprears oil flows from the pan, through the pump, to the coolers, to the filter, then the oil galleys. So if there is debris in the oil coolers, wouldn't they be caught by the oil filter?

Yes, the only thing that gets unfiltered oil is the oil pump, however the thinking here was that if the oil coolers were completely filled with debris and grit, that some of it could get past the filter. The Esprit workshop manual also mentions that they should be replaced when a rebuild happens involving debris.

The engine is back together and running right now. Hopefully I will talk to the mechanic later today.

Out of curiosity, if the block is not line bored (when assumably it needs to be), what would be the most noticeable result? Vibration and bearing wear?

Edited August 7, 2012 by ESPREE

[mike_sekinger]

If bearings caps have been swapped or borrowed from another engine, you have a real risk of excessive/uneven bearing wear. This may lead to damage to the crank journals and poor oil pressure. It is one of those things that you simply do not do.

The engine builder would notice if this is the case, as the crank would most likely become ' pinched' and not move freely by hand.

[ESPREE]

Got some more info... only one of the caps was swapped (the one with the thrust washers) from a donor V8. While I realize it's not ideal to let it go without boring it, he said it fit perfectly. Not much I can do with that besides insist that the entire engine get pulled apart I guess. But that seems a bit overboard.

It definitely is not pinching though, since it turned fine and is now running smoothly.

However, he drove it and thinks he still is hearing "the noise" (rattle). He will drive some more to confirm, but looks like we might be taking apart the top end to inspect the cams.

If the exhaust is fixed, the bearings are new and everything is tight in the bottom, what else could it be? We are running out of moving parts to check!

[sailorbob]

If it were me, I'd walk away from any shop that did this for me. I've been more meticulous with less expensive engines.

At the very least I think you need to ask what the main bearing clearances are. Did you get the thrust clearance back to within the specification?

I think replacing the oil coolers after debris contamination is more do do with not risking loosing oil pressure due to a blockage rather than the debris getting back into the engine.

[ESPREE]

I think replacing the oil coolers after debris contamination is more do do with not risking loosing oil pressure due to a blockage rather than the debris getting back into the engine.

Good point.

The crank end float is now tight (though I don't know the measurement).

I know what you are saying - I'm a very meticulous person (but don't know enough to be my own mechanic), so all of this drives me a bit crazy.

[gmendoza]

I second Bob and Mike's comments. Here are some scenerios of running mismatched caps. All not good.

Here's a side view showing poorly seated thrust bearings

Edited August 7, 2012 by gmendoza

[ESPREE]

Thanks for the visuals.

Edited August 7, 2012 by ESPREE

[Günter]

what me wounders, you seem to have enough money to pay again and again for a try & error process ??

Was the Esprit ever driven now by a person who does have those V8's for his own ? So with some more background about the characteristics of this engine/car ..and the running sounds ?

First you say all is fitted perfect, but you can't even say what the plastigage-result was ..and then you say the a main bearing cap was somewhat 'swapped' (forwhatever reason) or a bearing shell mismatched or so ..this all tends to point out that you started the project without a masterplan, or the guy who works there on this engine is way to lazy on what he does ??

Havent you said he worked there on other engines, so the 918 is not exotic in anyway ..the main bearing cap layout with the cross fixed bolts is similar to the Corvette ..and the crank layout is just two inline fours ..so as long as you follow the instruction/measurement tables it should work without any issues.

As for the *oil-filter* discussion, if the debris (or general wear) on this faulty engine has blocket the most of the filttration surface the backpressure would open up the internal bypass way on most modern filters. So the engine would run unfiltered from this moment on, this means a chance to have even more debris/particles running around in the whole system , so it is not only the oil-pump in this case who is stressed by hard particles..maybe this means why a oil-cooler becomes influenced/filled with metal articles..

Edited August 7, 2012 by Günter

[ESPREE]

Believe me, I wish someone could just listen to the sound and tell me what the problem is! But so far no luck with that. So we have to explore I guess.

As for my answers on specifics, keep in mind that in most cases I'm not the one doing the actual work, so there are often some questions that I can't answer properly. I'm kind of in the middle trying to educate myself here on the forum so I can at least have a decent conversation with the mechanic.

It does seem like a lot of trial and error (which makes me crazy), though I'm not sure what else could be done. He is an experienced mechanic who does work often on the V8s, but for whatever reason this engine is not going smoothly. It has indeed been very expensive, but at least at this point he is not charging me more to resolve this.

I'm not sure what else I can do besides hang in there and let him do what he can (and offer suggestions every now and then). If I were to take the car back and have someone else do the work I would have to pay all over again (which I can't afford).

Thank you all for your input and advice on this. I do appreciate it.

[lotusespritse]

I feel for you. Hang in there fellow Lotus brethren!

Just thinking out loud:

- how about getting a high quality audio recording device to capture the sound so you might get better help from the experts?

- what about selling your engine to someone that likes rebuilding and using the money toward buying a used engine from a wrecked V8?

Just some thoughts...

[ESPREE]

As for the *oil-filter* discussion, if the debris (or general wear) on this faulty engine has blocket the most of the filttration surface the backpressure would open up the internal bypass way on most modern filters. So the engine would run unfiltered from this moment on, this means a chance to have even more debris/particles running around in the whole system , so it is not only the oil-pump in this case who is stressed by hard particles..maybe this means why a oil-cooler becomes influenced/filled with metal articles..

This is good to know. Our other hypothesis is that something in the upper area of the engine (like the cams) is shedding metal, which would mean that anything downstream would get debris (like the main and rod bearings).

Actually this sounds somewhat likely since the oil in the cooling lines has been coming back clear but the oil draining from the crank area has been dark.

[Günter]

can you have access to an 'acoustic camera' device ? ..this is an real cool tool, we had one here in the university, with this you can analyse and find position and frequency of various running faults on machine systems.

On the other hand -I can not believe that there are no other Esprit V8 on the eastcoast.

Are the 'breather' filter plates in the valve covers in place ?? ..what type of hydraulic tappets have you choosen, the hard-chromed original ones (made by INA SKF, suitable also for the Opel/GM x20engines in the Calibra series somewhere..) ..or the ones I've used (made by Ajusa from spain, only 1/3 of the price per item, but not fabricated so good) ..so it would mean a higher risk you have to calculate

Edited August 7, 2012 by Günter

[ESPREE]

can you have access to an 'acoustic camera' device ? ..this is an real cool tool, we had one here in the university, with this you can analyse and find position and frequency of various running faults on machine systems.

On the other hand -I can not believe that there are no other Esprit V8 on the eastcoast

This sounds like a very cool tool. I have not heard of it before. Anyone have one?? I do have one of those basic "stethoscope" tools though. Maybe we can at least find the general area with it.

There are definitely some Esprit V8s on the east coast - there are 2 others at his shop right now.

I feel for you. Hang in there fellow Lotus brethren!

Just thinking out loud:

- how about getting a high quality audio recording device to capture the sound so you might get better help from the experts?

- what about selling your engine to someone that likes rebuilding and using the money toward buying a used engine from a wrecked V8?

Just some thoughts...

Thanks se. I keep telling myself it will all be worth it once it's done...

I do have a lot of audio gear and will record it if I am able. I had thought about swapping it when the problem first came up but a proper rebuild seemed to be the better choice. It only had 24,000 miles on it so there was no reason to believe it wouldn't be salvageable.

Are the 'breather' filter plates in the valve covers in place ?? ..what type of hydraulic tappets have you choosen, the hard-chromed original ones (made by INA SKF, suitable also for the Opel/GM x20engines in the Calibra series somewhere..) ..or the ones I've used (made by Ajusa from spain, only 1/3 of the price per item, but not fabricated so good) ..so it would mean a higher risk you have to calculate

I don't know about the breather plates, where are they located?

As for the valves (tappets), they are whatever the stock original ones are from 1999.

The acoustic camera sure looks like fun:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4vJG90Y_R9E

[lotusespritse]

Yea, that's cool. I am sure you can rent one of those somewhere. It's not exactly the sort of thing the average Joe needs every day.

[Günter]

http://esim.htw-berlin.de/organisation/?typo3state=projects&lsfid=1426

http://www.acoustic-camera.com/

Kent, you have got the PDF-manual & parts lists ..so you can see where the engine breather way goes for the crankcase oil breather

[ESPREE]

I see the diagrams (in the 40. Section) but I am not sure what i am looking for. Nothing is labeled as a breather (but it must be there somewhere). Are you thinking that that oil breather is loose or something?

[Günter]

you can undo both valve covers ..and refit them later on (with some dobs of silicone on the sharp edges to the camshaft caps on the front end..)

there is a sheet of metal on the inside of every valve cover, simply fitted with a type of 'rivets' ..if something is knocking against, or scratching on those shields who cover the breather filter (simple labyrinth & wire mesh things..) inside the valve covers it would also sound odd like a tin can.

[ESPREE]

Thanks for the info.