Clutch pedal - its happened again

[Kier 18]

This first happened to me in February this year. I got back to the car and the clutch pedal fell to the floor when I pushed it. It wouldn't come back on itself. After pulling it back by hand and giving it a few pumpings the pedal came back.

All was well until today, when again the pedal fell to the floor. A few puming on the pedal brought it back, so now its "OK", but a bit soft. So, its back to the dealer and it seems the heat shield isn't sufficient.

This happened to me today when I got into the car after work

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kier

[Moxie 101]

(Bringing this over from another thread--should have posted it in this thread):

 

I have 11K+ miles on my MY12 S, and just had the 10K service a few months ago. I was at a car show the other week, wedged between an MP4-12C…

 

 

...and an M1…

 

 

When we all went to leave I couldn't get my car in reverse--no how, no way. (Embarrassing in front of the McLaren guy, who was becoming impatient.) After about 2 minutes at idle it went in with a bit of a shove. I should probably note I was on an incline (nose up, and had parked the car in 1st, which I almost never do and usually only use the hand brake). Then a week later, even with just the handbrake and not having been parked in 1st, on level ground, I couldn't get it in 1st. Also, the clutch pedal was down about halfway when I first got in the car.

 

Then it happened again yesterday. Couldn't get in 1st, sort of. First thing I noticed was the clutch pedal was sunk down halfway again. Then when I attempted to put it in 1st the car would move (while the clutch was still buried to the floor), but there was no feeling that the gear had actually engaged.

Thomas described it best in the “Gearchange Issues dissected” when he said, “...the car would start creeping once I put 1st gear in, despite having fully depressed the clutch. Kind of like an automatic transmission when you release the brakes.”

 

So I waited about a minute and then everything was fine. Popped right in to 1st without a fuss and no worries after that.

 

So having read this thread and the Gearchange thread, I think I must be suffering what Thomas identified as Issue #1:

 

 

Issue #1: Clutch pedal falls to the floor when pushed and does not return. The clutch is not released. Quite a few owners seem to have experienced this at least once, which seems to occur only upon starting the car after having it sit at least a fwe hours (for example starting the car in the morning after a ride the day before). Lotus has identified two sources for this failure:
There is a Service Bulletin related to installing a heat shield around the clutch hydraulic pipe to prevent the fluid from boiling with subsequent bleeding of the pipe. Gas bubbles building up within the pipe would explain the behaviour as these would contract once the car cools down, leaving an empty pipe in the next morning. I had the SB applied, which resolved the problem for about 3 months.
Secondly Lotus has stated that several main cylinders were manufactured with incorrect or insufficient filling holes that prevent the main cylinder being replenished from the reservoir, specifically if the cylinder is not absolutely at the top. We noticed when bleeding the system that we had to press the main cylinder absolutely to the top to get any fluid into the system. Fluid contraction through colling woul consequently not be compensated, leaving a soft pedal.
There is, however, an instant remedy for the problem until you get to your dealer (and he gets the parts). You can manually pull the pedal up and cycle it a few times until it is solid again. Pumping the pedal a few times every time before you start the car should get you throgh a few weeks at least. If there are gas bulbbles in the system the pedal should firm up once the car gets hot.

 

 

 

So here’s what I'm thinking/wondering:

1. As per Thomas at http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/51271-clutch-pedal-its-happened-again/?p=412289 check the (shared) fluid level and top off if indicated.
2. Assuming that’s OK, get hold of the Service Bulletin, but does that only apply to pre-MY12 cars? If not, can someone give me the reference number so I can dig it up?

Thanks.

[Squidward 3]

afaik, only pre-MY12.

(http://ebookbrowse.com/54817-9823-sb-2011-29-evora-clutch-pipe-insulation-pdf-d468099173)

[insertaliashere 0]

MY12 cars have the service bulletin for the cylinder, too.

I had my master cylinder replaced back in December and started having clutch issues again.

 

I couldn't get into reverse on Friday. I pumped the clutch pedal and could not get it to firm up. Thankfully the lot was empty and I was on a slight enough incline to where the car would roll back slightly. I shimmied my way out of the lot and drove home. The pedal firmed up during the drive.

 

Started the car this afternoon and the pedal is to the floor again. I pumped the pedal but could not get the car into any forward gears (I reversed into the garage). I didn't try for very long as we were in a hurry to leave.

 

Hopefully I can get her into forward gears tomorrow morning to drive to the dealer.

[LotusEvoraSweden 0]

Now this happend to me also this clutch problem. It started at my first trackday this summer. After some hard laps i parked my car for an hour or so. I jumped in again for some more laps but i floored the pedal. When i pumped it several times thhe preassure came back. Lotus Dealer is taking in my car 23 august.

I work as a cardealer so we have our own worksop. The guys there tried to change the gearbox oil, but when they were going to fill up with new it simply did not work. Does anybody know why it seems to be impossible to fill up, can it be something with the cylinder?

The summer here in Sweden is very short so it is of course very boring that i can't drive my car

It would be great if somebody can give a tip if it is possible somehow to fill up with new oil or do i have to wait til 23 august when my Lotus dealer takes care of it?

[Bibs 11,126]

There's a problem with your master cylinder which means it needs to be replaced, your dealer has a Service Bulletin for this and will be able to do it within warranty. Once this has been done, Lotus have not seen a re-occurrence of the issue. You could always buy yourself a replacement part and have your guys fit it now or ask the dealer to ship one to you (which I doubt they'll do) to fit yourself. 

[TBD 781]

Now this happend to me also this clutch problem. It started at my first trackday this summer. After some hard laps i parked my car for an hour or so. I jumped in again for some more laps but i floored the pedal. When i pumped it several times thhe preassure came back. Lotus Dealer is taking in my car 23 august.

I work as a cardealer so we have our own worksop. The guys there tried to change the gearbox oil, but when they were going to fill up with new it simply did not work. Does anybody know why it seems to be impossible to fill up, can it be something with the cylinder?

The summer here in Sweden is very short so it is of course very boring that i can't drive my car

It would be great if somebody can give a tip if it is possible somehow to fill up with new oil or do i have to wait til 23 august when my Lotus dealer takes care of it?

The clutch is not connected to the gearbox oil, but the brake fluid. However, you won't have lost any fluid.

[Moxie 101]

There's a problem with your master cylinder which means it needs to be replaced, your dealer has a Service Bulletin for this and will be able to do it within warranty. Once this has been done, Lotus have not seen a re-occurrence of the issue. You could always buy yourself a replacement part and have your guys fit it now or ask the dealer to ship one to you (which I doubt they'll do) to fit yourself. 

Ditto that. I was having the same problem, but the good people at Lotos Motorcars of Long Island did that exact repair, expedited it for me since I had royalty visiting for a roadtrip, and finished the day before Bibs and I drove from New York to Ohio and back for Tony K's car party--good as new. I was told they'd done about a dozen of those repairs so far, all under warranty.

 

Fear this man...

 

[Bibs 11,126]

Pet Area?

[Moxie 101]

I just can't believe we screwed up and didn't get a photo of the Amish horde crossing the McDonalds parking lot, on their way to a nutritious breakfast. Not that you and I ever ate there (ahem).

[TBD 781]

Ditto that. I was having the same problem, but the good people at Lotos Motorcars of Long Island did that exact repair, expedited it for me since I had royalty visiting for a roadtrip, and finished the day before Bibs and I drove from New York to Ohio and back for Tony K's car party--good as new. I was told they'd done about a dozen of those repairs so far, all under warranty.

 

Fear this man...

That is one lovely color for the Evora!

 

But that man is certainly not adding lightness to your Lotus.

Edited August 8, 2013 by TBD

[bwgorman 0]

iThe old Lotuses (60's) had two separate systems. I remember 2 tanks on my 67 super 7. 

[andy4 0]

Has happened to me too-twice, on a 2014 Evora (I thought this problem was confined to older Evoras and Lotus had supposedly fixed it with a modified master cylinder).Both times 1st.thing in the morning and then an hour later clutch was fine.Car has only done 16k miles and problems occured 368 miles apart.Car has never been near a track so can't see how the fluid is boiling.Going by other posts sounds more like air in the system,but why?

[ferk1966 58]

Got up this morning car facing frontways into garage 2011 s clutch pedal all the way to floor pumped a few times it came up enough to get into reverse but still feels weak, clutch issue or air in system help !!

Edited April 21, 2018 by ferk1966
spelling

[Cain-it 23]

My 2014 Evora S had X2 replacement clutch MC's, so including the original build X3 + bleeding the system with fresh fluid every time . Thats as often as oil & filter changes during the warranty period . The OE MC is plastic & LHD cars like mine seem to have a worse pipe run, near hot coolant / heater pipes. 

As its now out of warranty, I fitted a BOE / Titan alloy MC and upgraded the pipe insulation end to end. So far, so good. HTHs

 

[ferk1966 58]

Anyone have a rough idea of the cost of having the master cylinder replaced, just a ball park figure 

[Alfa2Evora 705]

@ferk1966 Parts and labour, at an independent Lotus specialist last summer, came to about £430 to replace the metal master cylinder in my NA.

[Phil S1 63]

I've just encountered this problem for the first time this morning. Recently serviced 2014 na, been stood in garage for 3 days, this morning the clutch pedal was half way down and difficult to engage gears. Managed to get my foot under the pedal and lifted it up, then pumped it a few times and all seems fine again, driven 25 miles without issue. What's the latest thoughts on this? Fluid change or MC change?

[Snoopy1969 276]

Mc change......Lotus also advises to change the brake fluid yearly ...........

[Phil S1 63]

Sounds like it's going to be pricey then, I'll have a word with PJS Lotus at LitP tomorrow and see what they say. Drove it again last night and this morning and all seems fine just now anyway.

[pete757 158]

On 13/07/2018 at 12:21, Snoopy1969 said:

Mc change......Lotus also advises to change the brake fluid yearly ...........

This type of advice... 'change the brake fluid yearly'  bugs the hell out of me.  It's utter bollox.

We all know that brake fluid is 'hygroscopic'... but a yearly change is just OTT. It's just a way for the stealer to make nothing other than more money... and chances are that the brake fluid that they use to do the change is not fresh and has not come from factory sealed containers. 

If the MC is so 'fragile' that it fails after a year, or the seals brake down in that short period of time, there is something very wrong with the design or defective in the unit. There are probably millions of cars out there that have probably never had brake/clutch fluid changed in their life, never mind every year. That probably included thousands of Toyota units using the same clutch MC.

Stand your ground on this one mate and get to the bottom of the real problem. Good luck!  

[agentdr8 148]

36 minutes ago, pete757 said:

That probably included thousands of Toyota units using the same clutch MC.

The problem is that Lotus didn't just use a run-of-the-mill Toyota/Aisin clutch master cylinder.  Had they, I doubt there'd be as many reports of failing units as there are. 

[pete757 158]

Ok... but failing because of not changing fluid yearly... really!

What do they use?

Cannot be 'fit for purpose'! 

[agentdr8 148]

It's possible they engineered their own metal m/c and when that didn't work out, they engineered their own plastic m/c. I've not seen them cross-referenced from any other vehicle before.

Contrast that with the slave cylinder, which is a nice Toyota/Aisin unit that rarely (if ever) fails. I think the importance of yearly fluid flushes is high because the brake and clutch reservoir is shared, so all that cooked fluid from those high speed stops will accelerate the wear and tear on the clutch hydraulics as well.

[Snoopy1969 276]

@pete757 it was an advise from Lotus directly after the second mc failed (first had been changed because it was called back, but never had a problem with the first one), it was just a recommendation, no "you have to" but because of the technical points that @agentdr8 has stated in an highly understandable way I found this advise reasonable.