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What do you mean by "Bahar should not have offended Toyota...".

If I recall correctly, Lotus pressed on with developing their own engine at the behest and feedback from future potential customers. Even a lot of people on here said they should develop their own engine for their flagship model.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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to quote Bahar:

Mr Bahar said regardless of how much you tune a Toyota engine, it will still be a Toyota engine at the end of the day and Lotus wants to establish itself as a more unique brand. As a result, Lotus engineers have done the entire engine development program in house. The first prototypes of the next-generation Lotus Cars are expected to start testing before year’s end.

I honestly believe, this came on very hard in Japan. You can steel money from the Japanese and they will be very angry, but you can offend them, as Bahar openly did in the worldwide press and they will be outraged! I for one, believe the new "Lotus" V8 did not came now because they really wanted to, but because they needed to bring an own engine as Bahar screwed up big time in that interview. You know, the whole survey of the engine was rhetorical, even a 5 year old, could predict the outcome BEFORE it even started. How else was Bahar going to defend the ridiculous asking price of around $200.000?

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Mike

Gert is absolutely correct in that the "Esprit"...MES to give it its working name, was not far off. The car was there in base form, design and implementation was starting to come on line when MJK retired.

The car would have been out for a year now, no doubt at all in my mind of that. And it shared a common design link with the Evora suspension/chassis etc.

There should be no doubt that if the engines that it was designed to house (and it may have been Japanese....or German) then the car would be on the road by now.

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I didn't say that the esprit was not far off, or could not have been far off. I vaguely recall the quote that Gert has mentioned, but I do distinctly recall a lot of people on here saying the Esprit should have it's own engine and then a report saying that was a lot of the feedback from the original unveiling of the new line up.

But I do live in Australia, so maybe I've got it all upside-down. :stuart:

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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There are some drawings of that supercharged "Lexus" engine on this forum, somewhere. It's not that secret.

Especially in the US the Evora got some bad publicity as if it has "a Camry" engine, but only the people who have never driven an Evora say such a thing. I have driven a Camry and a NA Evora, except from the looks, those engines rev and accelerate nowhere nea the same. Lotus has changed the mapping completely. And even with the newer software the NA Evora drives even so much better, than the launch editions do. In fact, on public roads I find it somewhat stupid to spend the extra money for an S, on track of course it's a different story.

If taxes in Belgium weren't so high for a 3.5 V6 engine, I would drive an Evora 2+2, instead of an Elise and an Esprit...

Sorry to go even further off topic ;-)

Edited by Exploded

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Never said it was a secret Gert.

What I referred to earlier (as posted by Bibs)

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/46011-lexus-lfa/#entry378395

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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There were several good reasons for Lotus to develop its own engine, one of the most compelling without doubt the fact that Lotus Engineering, the biggest group asset, has a substantial reputation for third-party engine development. Remember, Lotus Engineering is the profit making arm of the group and has grown substantially under DB's tenure.

Using a third-party Toyota engine in your flagship vehicle is certainly not a good way to demonstrate world-class engineering skills in engine development. Or, could you imagine a BMW running with a GM engine? :scared:

And so it goes. Such is the stuff of conspiracy theories and "anti-Christ Muslim presidents" intent on ruining the global economy for personal gain, galavanting about the planet in expensive jets (the original post's "guilt by association" comparison to Dany's jetsetting activities), spreading havoc worldwide at every stop. Not a bad gig for a surf rat born in Hawaii.

Rant over. :comp:

Ah, now I see the big picture! :help:

Isn't it actually much worse: Lotus Group is owned by DRB, a company from islamic Malaysia Further, the Lotus race colors are black and gold, obviously reflecting the conspiracy's racial creed and financial greed.

Somehow these conspiracy theories haven't made it all the way to "Old Europe". But then we generally still adhere to Darwins theory, so we must be an apes descendents, where the "enlightened" were created by God :rofl:

Edited by TBD

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Never said it was a secret Gert.

What I referred to earlier (as posted by Bibs)

http://www.thelotusf...fa/#entry378395

I believe one can develop more than 2 "super cars" from the money that 1 engine costs. An engine these days is always under new development as the EURO 6 is looking around the corner and then there will be EURO 7... For a tiny company as Lotus, which is not making a lot of money, one should not have all this misery to deal with. Doing the ECU and some (minor) changes, or add systems as DPM, is much better. Do a lot of marketing campaigns, focussing on the fact that it is re-developed / re-engineered by Lotus. Obama became president by repeating his story a few thousand times. If you keep bringing your story, people will start to believe you!

When you make your own engine, for such a small volume of engines as Lotus needs, you are also the one who has to give warranty in the end and no longer Toyota, who don't mind too much about warranty, as the blocks are made in masses.

I have an Esprit 4 cylinder, my uncle has V8 Lotus engine, we both already had FULL rebuilds at our own cost. And we don't drive our cars in anger, never ever tracked and we both have less than 50k km. Those are the most unreliable engines ever, except from a TVR AJP V8 and a Speed Six, imo! I'm the first to say if it really is a Lotus engine, I actually don't want it! And once again, you are never going to gain ANY money on developing your own engine for such small amount of engines you need.

Edited by Exploded

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My favorite Lotus utilises a cast iron Ford 105E engine block, no secret and I don't care, one of the greatest road going sports cars of all time.

The EU has changed the in house engine game, for all time, and will continue to do so.

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US feedback was overwhelmingly in favor of an in-house Lotus engine as image conscious US buyers said they wouldn't spend ~$200K on a car with an off the shelf Toyota engine. On another point, a lot of folks here seem quick to pick on DB for his lack of judgment but forget had Colin not died in 82 he probably would have spent 10 years in prison for his part in the missing millions of pounds of tax payers money from the Delorean scandal.

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fmxa, I feel very confident that the "Esprit" with Lexus V8 would never had to cost $200k

And if the performance, ride and handling were good, they wouldn't have sold a car less, I'm sure!

Don't mix up "desire" with "reality", so those US buyers DO buy a Lamborghini Gallardo with Audi V10 engine, or are you going to claim now they sold 10.000 cars less in the US because of the Audi engine?

And so, why do the Americans buy Infinty's with Nissan/Renault engines then? And Accura's with Honda engines, or why even buy a Lexus with a Toyota engine... it really makes no sense at all.

If you adore the looks of a Noble M600, would you say, nah I don't buy it because of the Volvo engine?

If Lotus was selling cars at stellar speed and with a big fat margin, I's agree an own engine is the way to go, but things were 3 years ago and today it a lot worse, then doing an own engine, as a small car company is suicidal.

Edited by Exploded

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The inhouse V8 is to be used in the Esprit, Elite, Eterne, Elan and Elise should they all be built in different configurations. It's also to be used in various race cars and feedback from the target market disagree with you. Lotus didn't commit to a hugely expensive undertaking for no reason, they didn't want to put 'built an engine' on their CV, it was a market driven decision.

People do care where their engines come from, especially at this end of the market.

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So the people who buy an Accura, Infinity, Lexus, Noble, Artega, Tesla, Maserati, Lamborghini are all none potential Lotus (Esprit) buyers, if it had the Lexus engine??? !:D :D :D :D None of these brands carry their own engines and they ALL sell luxury cars imo.

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So do you think the Camry engine enhanced or cost sales of the Evora?

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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I am not against Lotus developing their own engine but.....

You don't listen to your clients over common sense and good budgetary Management! How do they know how much monies you have? What your overheads and monthly costs are? What you are developing and how much that costs. You find an alternative that is acceptable if you can't afford it.

If they had "surveyed" me I would have said the same "It would be great for them to have their own engine" but only in an ideal world where cash isn't king. I'd rather see new product first and formost. Development of the Engineering business and other income lines.

Engine development for a small manufacturer is prohibitively expensive. Too much too soon.

Addition:

Bibs. It was a compromise or else there wouldn't have been an Evora at all. Thats business. But I can see where both sides of the arguement come from as an enthusiast of course I want Lotus to fit their own engines. However as an Automotive guy I can understand peoples arguement that Lotus shouldn't do it till they build a bigger income base and pay off some of their loans.

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So you're saying Lotus should ignore their customer feedback and sell an Esprit with a Toyota engine all of them said they don't want and won't buy - brilliant, classic old school Lotus marketing!

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One big thing to consider is are we talking about a car at the cost of an Elise or the $200k+ Esprit. Just because one customer wants something, doesn't mean they speak for every potential owner out there. For people like me that can't afford a $200k+ car I'd much rather have a reliable Toyota lump in the back then an unreliable Lotus one that would do nothing but continue the stigma that Lotus cars are completely unreliable and you can't drive it down the street without it breaking. A sourced engine would certainly be cheaper then developing in house which would bring the cost down of the car and surely open the car to many more owners. As others have said there's plenty of high end super cars that don't have engines from their manufacturers and people don't put them down because of it.

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So do you think the Camry engine enhanced or cost sales of the Evora?

It was a major reason I decided to buy one (I pick it up Friday!). I still see it as a huge plus. But I'm completely on the fence about an in-house engine for future cars. I don't understand the financial situation well enough and couldn't afford a $200K car anyway.

Bibs--the plan is (was?) to put the same V8 in all five of the future cars? That seems a neat feat.

1983 "Investor's Special Edition" Turbo Esprit (#43/50) | 2012 Evora S

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So whats the alternative Trevor? Don't build it, the cars and shut down? Change the business plan?

I haven't seen the marketing or anything else but who was interviewed? What price bracket? How was it worded? Who was it aimed at?

Dammit. Andrew beat me to it :)

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Bibs--the plan is (was?) to put the same V8 in all five of the future cars? That seems a neat feat.

The plan is/was that the engine and gearbox plus suspension and other components would be shared across all 5 models, in various states of tune depending on the application. The V8 in the mid engined Esprit then the front engined Elite and later the Eterne. A V6 derivative, again all common components, was destined for the Elan with a straight 4 (half the V8) for the new Elise. It was this commonality across the range that made the plan 'affordable' according to DB.

Edited by hedgerley
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I don't suppose that the cost of the Esprit would be down to that which many of us would consider regardless of whether or not the engine was developed in-house. From my perspective, I love that my Esprit has a proprietary Lotus engine, and I have found it to be a wonderful and reliable unit, which at just apporaching 50K km is as strong as I have ever known it.

I suppose the chances of an in-house designed unit being less reliable than an outsoureced one are quite high, but really I think that the more relevent argument against developing one in-house is the one of cost.

Apropos of nothing, could Toyota just please buy Lotus now?

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I just love the way that some make Bahar out to be a total villain here. Do people really think he made all these decisions on his own without any consultation with the vastly experienced team he put together, or with his ultimate bosses at Proton who were bankrolling all this.

I also love the way some challenge the thinking of this vastly experienced team, like they themselves have as much or even greater experience of running a sports/supercar company.

As far as I can see, Bahar was employed to take Lotus in a new direction, one which I believe, as clearly did Proton, was the only direction that would see Lotus survive as a future market leading profitable sports/supercar brand, something it had not been for many many years, following the model that has been so successful for Ferrari, Porsche, Lambourghini, and certainly saw Aston Martin saved from potential oblivion a few years back. He achieved a great deal in the time he was in charge, it was never going to be cheap, and Proton new that when they empoyed him and supported his vision for Lotus' future development.

It was not Bahar's fault that Proton was sold to DRB and that this whole mess has subsequently ensued. If it hadn't, I daresay most of us would still be celebrating the coming new range of cars, and the association with the Lotus F1 team that undoubtedly has enhanced the brand, rather than making Bahar the scapegoat.

Some, maybe, are enjoying his downfall a little too much?

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Maybe, but what it does show is DRB's reluctance to follow Bahar's plans for Lotus. Where things go from here is a big concern, presumably DRB are rethinking the strategy, but will the accountants make that decision or will they appoint a new DB with his own agenda?

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I just love the way that some make Bahar out to be a total villain here. Do people really think he made all these decisions on his own without any consultation with the vastly experienced team he put together, or with his ultimate bosses at Proton who were bankrolling all this.

I also love the way some challenge the thinking of this vastly experienced team, like they themselves have as much or even greater experience of running a sports/supercar company.

As far as I can see, Bahar was employed to take Lotus in a new direction, one which I believe, as clearly did Proton, was the only direction that would see Lotus survive as a future market leading profitable sports/supercar brand, something it had not been for many many years, following the model that has been so successful for Ferrari, Porsche, Lambourghini, and certainly saw Aston Martin saved from potential oblivion a few years back. He achieved a great deal in the time he was in charge, it was never going to be cheap, and Proton new that when they empoyed him and supported his vision for Lotus' future development.

It was not Bahar's fault that Proton was sold to DRB and that this whole mess has subsequently ensued. If it hadn't, I daresay most of us would still be celebrating the coming new range of cars, and the association with the Lotus F1 team that undoubtedly has enhanced the brand, rather than making Bahar the scapegoat.

Some, maybe, are enjoying his downfall a little too much?

I really believe that most ,if not all on this forum really want Lotus to succeed .I cant help thinking that there is a little man in the back of our heads that think of Proton /DRB as the outsiders here.It might have just been Barclays bank ,at least it is British owned.This does not detract from the fact that the prospective vehicles are absolutely lovely and exciting .

It would be really splendid if we could see a true motor manufacturer of salt take over .The ideal would be someone like Ford to buy into it and run it.

Just because you ,with respect ,have the distance between manufacturer and financial ability.Never mind the empires that will soon develop ,perhaps names that dont make sense or cannot even be pronounced ,let alone come with absolutely no credentials in sport car developement.Heaven forbid !

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