Lotus in the post DB era

[Exploded]

Different article, in the Dec issue (176).

Thnx Bibs, but what an article full of sh*t. That Harry Metcalfe dude, is he on (hard) drugs? Even if Bahar had stayed, Lotus wouldn't have had sufficient funds to complete that Esprit. I read an article from a person who found himself interesting, as he felt a bit "involved" with the Esprit development and who is acting like a little child, as feels he is locked out now. It's sad you have to grow so old, to act like such a little kid.

[Bentzion]

Thnx Bibs, but what an article full of sh*t. That Harry Metcalfe dude, is he on (hard) drugs? Even if Bahar had stayed, Lotus wouldn't have had sufficient funds to complete that Esprit. I read an article from a person who found himself interesting, as he felt a bit "involved" with the Esprit development and who is acting like a little child, as feels he is locked out now. It's sad you have to grow so old, to act like such a little kid.

I don't think you are right in your assesment of Harry in all regards. I know that it takes loads of money to make a car a world class leader. Lotus has never had the lack of talent to produce such a product for anyone with money. It seems as if Danny was going to ask for more as he needed it. He is Turkish and was brought up in Italian business politics. He is very savvy. I don't know about the accusations regarding misappropriations of funds (which may be true) but he was great at marketing and THAT is what made Ferrari great over the years. They made shit cars up until recently but the perception that they made was always of incredible sports cars. How much money does it take to make a great sport car from scratch? Many millions.

[ramjet]

I actually got a slightly different opinion of DB from the article based on HM's comments. We publicly saw the ego & pizazz. Maybe at the factory, it was slightly different?

I was a bit puzzled over the remarks about the new chassis as I thought that the new range were to be based on the VVA chassis as that is what it was designed to do?

That may have contributed to more cost than maybe was required?

[Guest surferphil]

I think VVA was for customers of Lotus Engineering.

We will never know about DBs success or failing, as only a fool judges unfinished work.

Metcalfe is a hack, it's the photography that makes that razz mag any good.

Ben, Ferrari have made some great cars throughout their history way before DB, I can't believe you think DB made Ferrari, I honestly can't take you seriously after reading that.

[hedgerley]

Thnx Bibs, but what an article full of sh*t. That Harry Metcalfe dude, is he on (hard) drugs? Even if Bahar had stayed, Lotus wouldn't have had sufficient funds to complete that Esprit. I read an article from a person who found himself interesting, as he felt a bit "involved" with the Esprit development and who is acting like a little child, as feels he is locked out now. It's sad you have to grow so old, to act like such a little kid.

That is a quite an appalling assessment of Harry Metcalfe Gert . Do you have any idea who he is? As well as the founder of Evo magazine he not only has an extensive collection of sports and supercars cars but is a well respected journalist (not a hack as you suggest Phil - Harry lives and breaths cars) and has counted many senior industry figures as close personal friends for many years. His involvement with Horacio Pagani and the development of several of his cars (Harry has owned a Zonda for years) for example has given us some of the most entertaining motoring articles I've ever read.

Most people in this Forum would I think agree that he is better qualified than most to comment on Lotus' plans. He has been critical and praiseworthy in equal measure over the years.

To suggest he wrote the piece to 'big himself up' and on drugs is absurd in the extreme.

Edited October 13, 2012 by hedgerley

[Bentzion]

I think VVA was for customers of Lotus Engineering.

We will never know about DBs success or failing, as only a fool judges unfinished work.

Metcalfe is a hack, it's the photography that makes that razz mag any good.

Ben, Ferrari have made some great cars throughout their history way before DB, I can't believe you think DB made Ferrari, I honestly can't take you seriously after reading that.

I am not suggesting that DB made Ferrari better at all in that statement. Early Ferraris were not that great, 60's Ferrari's were getting good.

But the modern era Ferraris are not great until the Enzo, 458 et al came along

[richardvg]

OK OK ...JUST COOL OFF GUYS !

I am a firm believer that DB will be vindicated ! ......even though it may be by default ..........

Apologies, this is my first visit for ages (sorry, Bibs) - it's been a traumatic year.

Where to start with the recent travails of Lotus?

Is it the usual cyclical Lotus "crisis every 5 years or so", or is it more fundamental than that?

For what my opinions are worth:

1) Moxie (on about page 5 of this thread) was spot on: Bahar was a talented marketing guy (by all accounts he did great things at Ferrai and Red Bull in that role) BUT not the right guy/calibre for CEO - should have been appointed as CMO of Group Lotus under a tough CEO or Executive Chairman (if you're going to chuck monay at that sort of role, persuade Bob Lutz to come aboard in the role, not in some woolly advisory board role (that's not fish or foul - no company on any continent really knows what an adviosry board is)); having said appoint him as CMO, get some aggressive people under him - Naomi Campbell is, to many people, damaged goods after the "blood diamonds" trial (and let's not forget, that was a war crimes trial, which is never good PR), Brian May, guitar legend though he is, will evoke the response of Who the f%$k is he with most of Lotus' target audience (how long ago were Queen in the charts?), likewise Swizz Beatz ... get some people in who understand the product, the demographic and the wherewithal to crack on and get stuff done - think Esprit in Bond movies, Esprit in Pretty Woman, Esprit in Basic Instinct, Esprit in pop videos....;

2) I'm a bit concerned about the early posts going into microscopic detail on the powertrain for the new Esprit....and none about the looks! The concept launched in Paris was, to my eyes, unimaginiative and derivative; very "me too" - it simply showed where Lotus had been on a hiring spree, and at a stroke discarded a design language which Lotus had developed over decades, and which at least had some distinctive design cues; the original Esprit was breathtaking in its time, and to my eye the Peter Stevens redesign still cuts it as a "wow, what is that?!" design when you see one in the flesh;

3) Lotus much launch a new Esprit, whether that is with the bespoke platform/powertrain of the Bahar plan or as a SERIOUS development of the Evora platform - the Elise platorm has been stretched as far as it can with any credibility - Lotus needs to get away from the "Emperor's New Clothes" gags which follow its special editions;

4) I don't know what the ins and outs are with the F1 team, but Lotus F1 are doing bloody well (all things considered) in the F1 World Championship - for god's sake make some PR/marketing mileage out of it! Someone has paid a lot of money to be knocking on Ferrari's door in the constructors' championship - for f&"k's sake cash in on it!!!!

5) Following on from the above, for the foreseeable future, Evora is the flagship model - accept this and capitalise on it - it is, in MY2012 form, a fantastic car - make some noise about that!! - read and regurgitate the reviews! Let's see more proactivity on the PR/martketing (and I accept they are subtly different disciplines)

6) Elise must survive. It's a truism that you have an entry level hook for the younger single guy to engage him with the more aspirational, "family friendly" models in the range, so that when the flock flies the nest, he buys the 2 seat halo model as a reward to himself and his other half. Hell, it's how Lotus got me (together with growing up in the 70s and 80s when Team Lotus were stillwinning stuff) - I have had Elise S1, Europa S and now Evora S and loved them all...

7) Continue with the GT race programme, but focus on which series will get factory support - GT racing is rapidly growing in profile and credibility - decide which series to concentrate on in terms of profile/coverage - new Esprit v McLaren MP4/Mercedes SLS et al? - those series are getting more and more TV and magazine coverage, and having been to some events there is a definite appetite among the people who have paid through the nose for a ticket a) for a silhouette that looks like what they can aspire to in the showroom and b) the open paddocks they have at GT races;

8) (penultimate point, I promise) Where DB was spot on was in exploiting (ugly word, I know, but let's be realistic about the commercial necessities of the world we live in) Lotus' heritage. At my last job I was known as a sports nut and on the first day of the Olympics posed the question of which is the only car maker to have won F1, Indy, World Rally, Le Mans...and an Olympic gold medal. I have a subscription to Autosport, and am pleasantly surprised by the number of race previews for the current championship in which "Lotus" features among the top 4 or 5 winning manufacturers. Lotus has a history of achievement, a heritage, which frankly other manufacturers would have wet dreams about and cannot compete with (BMW of a few years ago "the ultimate driving machine" - do me a favour!). For god's sake Lotus - you may not have much cold hard cash in the banks, but in terms of PR collateral you can take to those banks, you have assets other manufacturers would kill for - cash in on it!

9) Last point - honest! Given the current uncertainty around the longer term, sorry but there is no alternative but to push current product - Elise, Exige V6 (for god's sake the development cost is all but incurred now anyway, so finish it off and start selling it to bank some cash) and Evora/Evora S - I am lucky enough to drive a MY2012 Evora S and it's superb - Lotus Just need to dpread the message, and Swizz Beatz is not the right messenger - it needs to be someone potential Evira buyers have heard of, and that's more likely to be Coldplay or a mainstream, current, movie star (see Basic Instinct above....)

I have no doubt that, in the words of Richard Burton in Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" "minds immeasurably superior to our own" have no doubt already considered my opinions above, but on the off chance they haven't, I throw them into the mix....

Well put apart from the spelling...............The unfortunate situation is that the penpushers that are at Lotus now are busy making a hash of the cake.

[ramjet]

In my experience, I have never see a firm run well by an accountant unless it is an accounting firm.

Maybe they are keeping quiet and will come out with a big bang like DB did. Either that or the candle is just going to burn out.

Who is still there that DB hired?

[DarrylV8]

I'm guessing that DRB and the COO dont read this forum.

Sudders when did you and DB get out of the bunker? Although you turning up in Muscat (is that by choice?) would explain why you've been quiet!!

Totally agree with the statement regarding accountants running companies, its difficult doing your job with one hand behind your back, in any profession.

Gert not sure what drugs your on; HM has been pretty good to Lotus over the years, and I did not read into his column as you may have done!

The only issue I can see is big possibility of the 3rd version of the Esprit before it finally (well hopefully) gets into production. Which may well make it a contender for the biggest white elephant in the UK. Any idea on (real) costs to date on both MJK and DB versions and the DRB costs since take over?

Any way that's me done going to get the 260 out the garage, ready for an afternoon over at Doncaster.

[Guest surferphil]

..... he was great at marketing and THAT is what made Ferrari great over the years. They made shit cars up until recently but the perception that they made was always of incredible sports cars.......

I am not suggesting that DB made Ferrari better at all in that statement. Early Ferraris were not that great, 60's Ferrari's were getting good.

But the modern era Ferraris are not great until the Enzo, 458 et al came along

Well you did and you said Ferrari made shit cars, so no I have no idea where you are coming from or what planet are you on.

That is a quite an appalling assessment of Harry Metcalfe Gert . Do you have any idea who he is? As well as the founder of Evo magazine he not only has an extensive collection of sports and supercars cars but is a well respected journalist (not a hack as you suggest Phil - Harry lives and breaths cars) and has counted many senior industry figures as close personal friends for many years. His involvement with Horacio Pagani and the development of several of his cars (Harry has owned a Zonda for years) for example has given us some of the most entertaining motoring articles I've ever read.

Most people in this Forum would I think agree that he is better qualified than most to comment on Lotus' plans. He has been critical and praiseworthy in equal measure over the years.

To suggest he wrote the piece to 'big himself up' and on drugs is absurd in the extreme.

I think this statement is absurd and extreme, it clearly seems you are in the minority in bigging up the Hack.

You seem to be claiming he's a development engineer for Pigani, can you back that up?

You also imply that he knows the ins and outs of Lotus' business, engineering and development. Is he a development engineer for Lotus too? Just because he has a car collection doesn't give him this superior knowledge of everything. Even if he thinks it does. It takes a bloody good education and years of working experience at the top to even understand half of this stuff and I'm pretty sure he doesn't form reading his articles over the past 15 years.

All he does is type what he wants to sell copy. He's a hack.

[hedgerley]

I think this statement is absurd and extreme, it clearly seems you are in the minority in bigging up the Hack.

You seem to be claiming he's a development engineer for Pigani, can you back that up?

You also imply that he knows the ins and outs of Lotus' business, engineering and development. Is he a development engineer for Lotus too? Just because he has a car collection doesn't give him this superior knowledge of everything. Even if he thinks it does. It takes a bloody good education and years of working experience at the top to even understand half of this stuff and I'm pretty sure he doesn't form reading his articles over the past 15 years.

All he does is type what he wants to sell copy. He's a hack.

I was simply defending Metcalfe's credentials as a motoring journalist Phil, better qualified than any of us to comment on the state of the industry in general and Lotus in particular. If you read my post carefully, particularly the statement about Pagani, I am saying that his insights into the development programme of some fairly significant cars over the years are based on his close association with the principles involved.

In no way am I claiming he is a development engineer for Pagani (note the correct spelling ), Lotus or anyone else. He writes about what he finds and bases his opinion on the facts as he sees them (accepting that some of his sources may of course be economical with the truth along the way) The articles that he produces are not only entertaining but probably pretty accurate in their assessment.

As for being in a minority in bigging him up, on what evidence do you base that assertion? Admittedly based on a small sample (my own petrolhead mates including car club members) I would suggest most if us respect what he has to say.

Edited October 13, 2012 by hedgerley

[Bentzion]

Your obviously have some strong opinions.

But like most forum members around the globe you get aggressive because you're not facing the person while insulting. Just relax and let others have their say. After all we are all just sharing opinions.

[Guest surferphil]

I was simply defending Metcalfe's credentials as a motoring journalist Phil, better qualified than any of us to comment on the state of the industry in general and Lotus in particular. If you read my post carefully, particularly the statement about Pagani, I am saying that his insights into the development programme of some fairly significant cars over the years are based on his close association with the principles involved.

In no way am I claiming he is a development engineer for Pagani (note the correct spelling ), Lotus or anyone else. He writes about what he finds and bases his opinion on the facts as he sees them (accepting that some of his sources may of course be economical with the truth along the way) The articles that he produces are not only entertaining but probably pretty accurate in their assessment.

As for being in a minority in bigging him up, on what evidence do you base that assertion? Admittedly based on a small sample (my own petrolhead mates including car club members) I would suggest most if us respect what he has to say.

I'm opposing your view based on your own argument. You can't say someone is wrong because you think most people agree with you. It seems that isn't the case on this thread and even if it was, it doesn't make your statement right.

I was using the type of language you used to show you the mirror of what you wrote to provoke you into presenting your argument in a more intellectual way; substantiating the argument you present. E.g. You presented no evidence saying you are a majority, so I replied with an equally flippant response.

I do and have worked in the automotive industry; with engineers, designers and marketing professionals and I can clearly say that the knowledge and experience I have gained from this has given me the insight to know how little anyone can know about what goes on behind closed doors. I know what problems car development can face in all aspects, not just in engineering.

I also know how writers use and are used in the game of PR/Marketing and how readership are used in the game of running a profitable magazine. I don't believe much of what I read and don't respect writers who present themselves as the fountain of knowledge or take themselves as seriously as the writers in Evo. It's all just a show.

Your obviously have some strong opinions.

But like most forum members around the globe you get aggressive because you're not facing the person while insulting. Just relax and let others have their say. After all we are all just sharing opinions.

Debate is a great way to challenge your opinion publicly, a good argument provokes though and forms opinion, no one is keeping score (as far as I know). I write as I speak.

You're just whining because you made a really aggressive statement that had no basis.

............ I don't know about the accusations regarding misappropriations of funds (which may be true) but he was great at marketing and THAT is what made Ferrari great over the years. They made shit cars up until recently ..................

[hedgerley]

Your obviously have some strong opinions.

But like most forum members around the globe you get aggressive because you're not facing the person while insulting. Just relax and let others have their say. After all we are all just sharing opinions.

Was that aimed at me or Phil Bentzion? I had hoped my post would be read for what it is - me expressing my opinion. I don't believe its aggressive or insulting. And given Phil's obvious qualifications I can respect his opinion as well, even if he doesn't respect mine or Harry Metcalfe's. But that's his prerogative. I think I'll sign off now.......

Edited October 13, 2012 by hedgerley

[Guest surferphil]

I do respect your opinion, that's why I take time out to argue with you.

Was that aimed at me or Phil Bentzion? I had hoped my post would be read for what it is - me expressing my opinion. I don't believe its aggressive or insulting. And given Phil's obvious qualifications I can respect his opinion as well, even if he doesn't respect mine or Harry Metcalfe's. But that's his prerogative. I think I'll sign off now.......

[Bentzion]

Was that aimed at me or Phil Bentzion? I had hoped my post would be read for what it is - me expressing my opinion. I don't believe its aggressive or insulting. And given Phil's obvious qualifications I can respect his opinion as well, even if he doesn't respect mine or Harry Metcalfe's. But that's his prerogative. I think I'll sign off now.......

At Phil. Sorry for the confusion.

[ramjet]

All he does is type what he wants to sell copy. He's a hack.

By that comment Phil, every journo is a hack. No?

They are all employed to 'sell copy' ipso facto 'a hack'.

Bit of a generalisation, don't you think?

[Guest surferphil]

Yes, you got it.

[Iconic Ride]

Ah yes, there's nothing so invigorating as a full on global cat fight. Points are made. Points are challenged. And some points become pointless. Innuendo escalates into accusations. Accusations become heated disputations, which in turn become contentious polemics, which further intensify into keyboard combat. And before you know it, you're ready to run for Parliament.

Keep calm, and carry on. And be secure in the knowledge that this forum nonetheless remains by far one of the very few where members can "agree to disagree" through the practice of circumspection and a willingness to entertain the conflicting thoughts of others.....

Even if everyone of you is completely bonkers, have no idea what you're talking about, and belong in a muppet asylum.

Just kidding.

[Guest surferphil]

No your not, and I take offence at your personal comments quite clearly aimed at me!

[DarrylV8]

Phil I'm sure if John was having a go at you it would have been more direct, sounds a general comment aimed at those who sit on the fence??

[Guest surferphil]

I was joking

[Iconic Ride]

Even so, I continue to fart in your general direction, silly Englishman.

[molemot]

It is every Englishman's birthright to be silly....as it is every American's to mistake farting for repartee!!

[Guest surferphil]

All I hear is: "Oh if I were in Dixey, away away" Stinky dog!

Even so, I continue to fart in your general direction, silly Englishman.