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Lotus in the post DB era

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They need to upgrade driveline (paddle shifter that shifts in .0000000001 seconds !) and a few more creature comforts etc...The car is awesome it needs a batter perception of a reliable everyday car as well.

All I can say is it already downshifts a lot better than I ever will... although that's probably not saying much! I hear you though, the MY12 went a long way to fixing the issues, at least I hope so! :smoke:


Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

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As I understood it when Renault pulled out of F1 in the 90's their F1 engine production stopped and when they bought back in more recently the bought an engine manufacturer and re branded it to Renault F1.

I don't generally subscribe to the branding game as I work in the Auto industry with a lot of marketing and advertising material and see it for what it really is, rather than how it is presented to the market, so naturally I'm sceptical.

When they came back, Renault enlisted Mecachrome's help to fast forward their return and at some point Mecachrome produced probably 50% of all Renault F1 badged engine. But Renault never bought them! Viry was always there designing the engine and its components. Today Mecachrome still supplies engine parts but not all dressed engines.

I do join you on many points here branding is not my cup of tea either.

Back to Lotus, I would really like to buy an Evora now but due to my career option, I'll have to delay that by another 4 years, I think. By then I'll be in a great position to buy a very good second hand car - I live in Canada, so really no point in buying an Elise only to drive it 4/5 months a year tops.

I think one issues the car has is the engine it is not a bad engine but DB made it look bad when he said they were developping their own engines. They created high expectation. Designing an engine is not so hard Lotus has done it many times before. Producing engine is more difficult but still nothing achievable even on a budget. Having said engine to go through engine type approval in the UK, EU, US and now China (I read that they are beefing up their arsenal!!!???) is something else. It's part of the process but it really is the hard part. Then comes the engine proving and all the teething problems that new engines do have.

Then of course you have the problem of cost. Other than Ferrari (which still offset the cost to Maserati) all sports car maker get their engines from mass market manufacturer or have very old engine design.

Porsche is a mass market manufacturer these days (they sell and produce more cars than JLR)

Jaguar still uses essentially an evolution of the AJV8 that was design under the Ford regime (even their "brand new" V6 and V8)

Aston still uses an original Ford era design (the next gen engines were supposed to be sourced/shared with Mercedes)

Lamborghini has Audi

Bentley has Audi

Bugatti has VW

Maserati uses Ferrari tech as said above

Pagani uses Mercedes AMG custom tech (that's probably the best deal in the industry)

And now you have the new exception to the rule in McLaren.

McLaren is a company with very very deep pockets, so deep they could buy Lotus and buy back the debt and rid the company of it. And still have a lot of cash left to go on another shopping spree. They sell cars that will all cost in excess of 150k contrarily to Lotus whose cars are being sold at a price point under 80k these days. So offsetting the cost of engine development on car sales is not that big a deal for McLaren.

That's where the itch is for lotus developping the V8 is costly but provided they sell enough cars using it they'll get some ROI at some point. Deriving a V6 on it should also generate positive ROI provided enough cars using that V6 are sold and the unitary cost of the V6 is not superior to the price of sourcing a V6 from a mass market manufacturer (i.e Toyota/Lexus)

Same can be said for the I4 but it gets really tricky for the I4 cause there are plenty of super potent 4 banger available these days! It's really hard not to find one that suits the purpose. And the potential good news for Lotus is that even Toyota is getting a brand new 2.0 turbo.

I'd rather get a V4 cause it would probably generate more buzz than an I4 and would be dressed the same way the other engines would be while an I4 would require a bit of fiddling probably.

In my opinion the V8 made sense with Esprit and Elite both using it... The Elite gone or shelved indefinitely the case is harder to make but the investment has been done.

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Guest surferphil

I mentioned I4 as its a better package so it will fit in almost any car, a V is going to be taller even though it will be shorter.

The I4 would make a great customer engine with new tech (DI) and a lot of the 4s out there are actually quite old now and as we saw with Toyota, their engine was too smokey for the EU.

Jaguar designed and built their own engines but unfortunately after ford sold off Jaguar they kept the Jaguar engine plant in Wales and turned JLR into a customer (of their own engines V8 V6). However, JLR have sourced new I4 engines from alternative suppliers than Ford, this scenario is exactly the right market for Lotus. Partly why I wrote before that I think JLR and Lotus would be good together.

This is really the point we are all making about shared technology and I feel the whole group would have benefited from a high performance I4 developed by Lotus and manufactured by Proton. Should have been good for them both.

I'm interested in what you wrote about Porsche selling more cars than JLR, it surprises me. Where you got your figures?

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Dany: "Tony, I thought you said this lawsuit thing was going to be a cakewalk. It's been dragging on forever now. You promised me that brace of Caterhams you slipped into Judge Perkingraft's garage at midnight last week was guaranteed to grease the wheels. Well, I haven't heard diddly from him since I lent him my last tube of premium mouse."

Tony: "Patience, my good man. These things take time. The deal's still on, chap. In fact, I'm thinking of increasing your fallguy stipend by 10%, but that depends on the Petrov replacement wonga factor. And Cyril's compensation package, of course."

Dany: "Fine, but I thought we agreed that once I forked over the damages award to the AirAsia International Monetary Laundering Executory Consortium, and after you finalised the purchase of Lotus from DRB-Hicom, that I would be reinstalled as CEO, COO, and President for Life."

Tony: "No worries, Dany boy. Fret not. Your reinstatement at the helm is assured. I'm going to need all the free publicity I can get, and believe me, there's a certain contingent out there that will go mondo vocal when they find out who's back in charge."

Gerard: "Listen up, guys. I don't want any screwups on this gig. Bernie's still pissed at me about that Saab buyout deal that fell through two years ago. He's really on my case to make this work. He's convinced that combining Caterham and Lotus into one F1 team is the way to go. He's really tired of all the fan confusion, and needs to create another space for the new Trabant F1 Team entry he promised Putin when they signed the Gazprom Siberian oil fields deal. Seems Vladimir is a huge F1 fan himself, and is also looking to improve on the much maligned Trabant brand image. Good luck with that, but I'm merely the messenger here."

Dany: "You certain Genii Capital can pull this off, Gerard? Someone's sure to figure out who's really pulling the strings here. That group on The Lotus Forums is pretty canny. How much are we slipping that Bibs fellow to keep a lid on it anyway? Is it true he's on the short list for a demo New Esprit? Heard he's ordered it in Deepstealth Black, sort of a "memory lane" thing, eh?"

Gerard: "Can't confirm or deny that rumour yet, Dany. You know the drill here. Close-to-the-vest is our modus operandi for now. And Bernie's hinting that he wants one as well. We need to prod Wolf a little more on that V8 timeline."

Tony: "OK. I think things are under control for the moment. I'll see what I can do about lighting a fire under Judge Perkingraft's arse to move things along a little faster. Perhaps an increase in his AirAsia frequent flyer miles will help. Time grows short, and the 2013 F1 season will be upon us before we know it. Have to run. Putin and I are scheduled for an afternoon conference call about those new natural gas pipelines we're putting in between the fields and those disputed islands in the South China Sea. Seems Beijing thinks the sulpher smell additive will drive the Japanese protesters away for good."

Dany: "I'm outta' here."

Gerard: "Later."


Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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I'm interested in what you wrote about Porsche selling more cars than JLR, it surprises me. Where you got your figures?

Oops my bad, I went to fast and got lazy Porsche sold more cars than Jaguar (not JLR) in 2011.

Here are the numbers:

Porsche: 118,000 units sold

Jaguar: 50,000 units sold

Land Rover: 232,000 units sold (of those 85000 were the brand new Evoque)

JLR (combined sales): 282,000 units sold

I'm sure you had checked for yourself but I had to clarify.

Jaguar designed and built their own engines but unfortunately after ford sold off Jaguar they kept the Jaguar engine plant in Wales and turned JLR into a customer (of their own engines V8 V6). However, JLR have sourced new I4 engines from alternative suppliers than Ford, this scenario is exactly the right market for Lotus. Partly why I wrote before that I think JLR and Lotus would be good together.

Where is JLR getting the new I4 Diesel? I was told that the Evoque petrol engine is the 2.0L Ford Ecoboost.

I understand why you said that. Even if you take away the powertrain component Lotus would still gain a lot from being in the same stable as Jaguar and Land Rover. Their parts bin is great, They have their entrances at all major OEM suppliers (transmission, cabin tech).

Now, I don't see the Lotus I4 making it into the Proton line up. Not for the time being not in a near future. I was in Malaysia 2 years ago and their market was and still is mostly small cars, small engine. By that i mean the average car on the street is fitted with a 1.2 or at best a 1.6l petrol engine.

Proton is not about upscale models, no car in their line up could find a need even for a dialed down version of this engine. No matter how sporty they want to be right now. Today Proton is doing barely more than rebadging last gen Mitsubishi range, fitting them either with the old "campro" engine or keeping the Mitsu tech (mivec) in it. Their sales figure for 2010 : 147,000 units sold

Edited by NedaSay

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I wouldn't be too eager to jump to conclusions on the truth or not of the article. No quoted sources, everyone giving the 'no-comment'.

If I was Renault and I wanted to negotiate a good deal with DRB / Lotus on design and build what better way than 'leaking' that they were close to a deal with Caterham.

It doesn't seem to make much sense to do one project with Lotus and one with Caterham. You'd want to share parts / technologies across projects. Also, who has the capacity and experience to build such a car. Caterham, who don't even build all their cars, or DRB who build them for several big manufacturers already?

Anyway, it seems likely to these eyes that there's no deal done quite yet.

To be quite honest ....I think that DRB are in a little bit over their playing weight here !! I do not mean as a company which i am sure they are good at what they do.I mean as a motor car ,more specifically ,a sports car manufacturer ........Tony Fernandes ,Dany B have elements of passion for this and i am sorry to say that DRB appear to be running the show as "politically correct " as possible .They furthermore play their cards so close to their chest that we see "smoke and mirrors" ......and we all know where there is smoke.

I digress ,if I was a motor manufacturer out there looking to buy ,do you really think I am going to buy Lotus .....because they have engineering prowess ,,,,,,sorry for that .I can source this in vitual space.

The reality is that DB and TF has a charisma about themselves that in all honesty suite the sports car world .Both different yet i am certain would have landed up at the same place in a different scenario..

So DB spent a couple of bucks ,he had a deal ,promises by Proton were made which they did not fulfill and the monies to continue were not forthcoming.HE WAS ON THE RIGHT TRACK !

Just look at the cars the DB era put together .....think back to the Esprit that challenged the likes of Ferrari ,Maserati ,Porsche and Jaguar .These cars (new design Lotus) would have been a major threat !

I think the post DB crowd in place are ,by virtue of their silence ,are in the ring and dont know how to box.....

DB ,Chapman and TF have one thing in common > They are not afraid of success .The crowd their now are .

It is more often the fear of what next (if you succeed ) that makes you fail...............and i see this patter emerging.

TOO SCARED TO PUSH THE BOUNDARIES IN CASE .........


Technically sound ...Theoretically poked !

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Guest surferphil

Or they are just trying to get it right so Lotus don't go bankrupt on some more expensive un finished cars no one wants.

You mean look at the 1 car DB put to gether: Exos. The 5 were concept cars 2 of which were cancelled the rest were no where near engineering except the Esprit, which was no where near production and hardly a new idea. He didn't get chance to finish anything else.

Chapman was a creative and engineering genius! Fernades is a dodgy business man, don't compare the two!

Nico, Land rover were looking to source their engine from a Peugeot/Citroen joint venture with other companies when I was there, LR were breaking their dependence on Ford. However things do change and these arrangements can be a lot more complex than the press know about they make a lot of stuff up too. I believe the engineering/CAD system used should have been discontinued by now, it was all changing when I was there for the launch of Evoque. I have not been there for a few years, so forgive me for being a little out of touch.

Yes, exactly this situation at proton that needs to change, my solution would have been a benefit for both Proton and Lotus rather than keeping things as they are, higher displacement engines are not necessary to share manufacturing and key components. My point is that Proton can manufacture and Lotus can design, it should have been a match made in heaven for both. My proton is 1.8 (developed from a Mitsubishi turbo by Lotus), so was my Elise and my Elans are 1.6 :-)

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To be quite honest ....I think that DRB are in a little bit over their playing weight here !! I do not mean as a company which i am sure they are good at what they do.I mean as a motor car ,more specifically ,a sports car manufacturer .

My point was not about Lotus cars, it was about DRB / Lotus as a contract manufacturer for Renault in the same model as Valmet or Magna Steyr. Whatever you think about DRB's communication about Lotus Cars, they run the only plants which manufacture the S class outside Mercedes ones and are used by some of the most quality-focussed firms as an assembly partner. They know about quality automotive manufacturing and have a good contact list for this.

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You mean look at the 1 car DB put to gether: Exos.

How many did they sell ?


Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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Guest surferphil

No idea. I expect bibs will know.

I read that they were only going to make 10 per year, even Trev hasn't owned one!

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Today's Sun

post-1-0-12684600-1349427902.jpg


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Without getting to copyright issues, anything new? Or are they just trying to catch up with the FT splash of last weekend?!

How about a poll here: "Do you own a Lotus and read the Sun?". (Genuine interest, no allusions intended!)

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I was given a heads up to get a copy, I'm an child of the internet so rarely buy a paper! I've posted it small enough not to read too as I'm sure they have a bigger legal dept that me!

Nothing new, interview with Aslam with kind of non-answers. No, we're not relocating, no, we're not telling you our plans etc.


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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They got a few pages in the Daily Mirror today as well.

Very positive report on the Exige S along with some comment about past/present ownership.

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I've got to buy another red-top :no


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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? :huh:


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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Phew. That's OK then. And doesn't it look good in black.....

http://www.autospies...it-Model-72775/

Mind you, the pedant in me does not see this as confirmation that the new Esprit development continues, only that the rumours themselves are baseless. But I continue to live in hope.

However they should take their own advice on board - get something official out Lotus and the rumour and speculation will cease!!!!!!!

Edited by hedgerley

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I've posted it small enough not to read too as I'm sure they have a bigger legal dept that me!

The Sun

Legal Department

1 Virginia Street

London

E1 9XR

Main: (020) 7782 4100

Andrew Betts

Dear Mr. Betts:

It has recently come to our attention that you have posted a facsimile of our 5 Oct 2012 edition on your web site, TLF. Whilst we have no problem with such free publicity and the additional sales that it generates, we would like to inform you of our intent to bill you for 7 pair of prescription glasses eyewear, and their associated medical examination costs, owing to the vision impairment brought on by the efforts of several of our employees to actually read the displayed issue's rendering. At this time we are assuming that said impairment is of a temporary nature, but wish you to know that, if otherwise, it remains our avid intention to secure full renumerative compensation for any and all permanent vision defects attributable to our legal staff's review of your post in the performance of their duties.

Sincerely,

Steven Hawkes, Business Editor

The Sun

cc: Dominic Mohan, Editor in Chief


Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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Phew. That's OK then. And doesn't it look good in black.....

http://www.autospies...it-Model-72775/

Mind you, the pedant in me does not see this as confirmation that the new Esprit development continues, only that the rumours themselves are baseless. But I continue to live in hope.

However they should take their own advice on board - get something official out Lotus and the rumour and speculation will cease!!!!!!!

Alas, a word from the source! THat is the scond major annoucement from Lotus (next to the new pictures of the 414E) within the last days.

Hast DRB/Lotus suddenly rediscovered marketing? My God, that is almost as much PR as DB gave us hourly!

C'mon, DRB give it to us! We can take it! :clap:

Am I by any chance becoming ironic on this? :huh:

Edited by TBD

If you have the choice between a Stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell don't forget the Nomex®!

Captain,  Lotus Airways. We fly lower! 

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"Steven Hawkes, Business Editor

The Sun"

Fret not Bibo - I know him and have a little black book with his name in it..

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I wanna know where Mr 'soon to get an injunction' up there got my name and (now deleted) home address from! :huh: I feel violated, and from so far away!!


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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I'd like to know one thing. How bad is Lotus curse so that every consecutive owner or shareholder since the death of CABC hasn't been able to leverage Lotus engineering strength and to produce Lotus cars the way they were meant to be produced? Every single one of them announced great plans or no plans at all. and every single one of them did not do much to find a proper CEO/COO/Chairman except for MJK stint.

Really how bad is this curse!?

Edited by NedaSay

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Looks like Genii capital may be buying Lotus for one british pound after all but by then Lotus may be worth even less.

DRB are in deep here" Sell and get out while the brand can get out this mess.

bas45rds!

Edited by ramjet

If the only thing constant is change, then why do we resist change the most?

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