Lotus in the post DB era

[hedgerley 440]

Ah, see your point Stirling. You could be right. But I'm a glass half full kind of guy...  

[TBD 781]

I was reading an interesting article the other day. Daimler spent 1 Billion € on the facelift of the E-class.  Make all the discussions about the development cost of the new Esprit seem ridiculous.

 

But then, German engineering can sometimes overdo it!

 

http://youtu.be/BqAw2O4Qmbc

[Bee 85]

Darryl ...

 

you're right:I do need a lotus again. I've allowed issues of practicality far too much influence over my car puchasing habits over the past few years, but now that the daughter's at university, I am actively eyeing up Elises!

 

Don't get me wrong about DRB/HICOM, by the way; I agree that they seem committed to getting Lotus back on track and those recent photos from the production lines do a great deal to foster a sense of optimism!

[Exploded 23]

I was reading an interesting article the other day. Daimler spent 1 Billion € on the facelift of the E-class.  Make all the discussions about the development cost of the new Esprit seem ridiculous.

 

But then, German engineering can sometimes overdo it!

 

Thomas please compare this figure with the number of sales of both cars. The last 5 years the Esprit was built, Lotus couldn't even sell 600!

Edited February 1, 2013 by Exploded

[Vulcan Grey 251]

Porsche spent $4billion on the 996 and Boxster development...

[Stirling_Villeneuve 105]

That's mind numbing... I can't imagine what Lotus could do with that sort of cash, but then if they had that sort of funding it wouldn't be the Lotus we know and love! 

 

That's not to say £3-400m wouldn't come in handy... 

[Exploded 23]

and again how many 996 and boxster were sold????? It's all in perspective guys. Porsche sold over 100.000 996  from 2000 to 2003 so in 4 years, Lotus did barely 11k Esprit in 35 years!!!!

[Stirling_Villeneuve 105]

Right...but even so people compare the cars like for like, not based on sales figures. I reckon Lotus spent far more wisely than Porker ever did AND they developed new models as opposed to just recycling the Beetle...

[Bentzion 5]

and again how many 996 and boxster were sold????? It's all in perspective guys. Porsche sold over 100.000 996  from 2000 to 2003 so in 4 years, Lotus did barely 11k Esprit in 35 years!!!!

so by that contention Porsche would have to sell the cars at a profit of over 40000 with parts sales and accesories in order to make the expense profitable.  I obviously dont know how to do that math.. But i seems plausible.

[TBD 781]

These numbers are exactly the challenge facing Lotus. Developing a new model for a fraction of that money can only mean compromising both on engineering quality and development of economical production figures.

 

In the end, that means that as a cusromer your end up getting less for more money. Or, we finally accept to pay more for the exclusiveness that we are buying in a Lotus.

[cnapan 4]

We reckon that with the expertise we have at Lotus and the expertise that we have in Proton, we can work together and synergize and make Lotus into a profitable company which is commercially driven.

I can think of few manufacturers which had less to teach Lotus than Proton. The only interesting possibility was as a major investor in new Lotus products which might set the world alight, but it didn't have what it takes. (Which is something more akin to the sums mentioned in recent posts above)

The result is that Lotus finds itself with yet another owner not able to put what is needed, the result of which will be a company at best struggling to break even, but never managing to gather enough money together to make a big dent in the market. What is it even doing building cars which can't be sold in North America for example?

[Bentzion 5]

"The result is that Lotus finds itself with yet another owner not able to put what is needed, the result of which will be a company at best struggling to break even, but never managing to gather enough money together to make a big dent in the market. What is it even doing building cars which can't be sold in North America for example?"
 

 American buyers are finicky and expect a well rounded product.  We all expect low rent American cars to suck but when your paying 90 to 100K for an automobile the quality needs to be there.  Heck, Lotus should be tearing into that toyota v6 and making it more exotic.  What's the sense.  Lotus knows how to make a great product given a low budget but somethings like interior creeks and shift quality (polish in general) will not be had without additional investment. Heck, using that transmission in the Evora was a BIG mistake.  Shifting is a big part of perceived quality.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Bentzion

[Iconic Ride 267]

 "What is it even doing building cars which can't be sold in North America for example?"

 

I keep hoping that somewhere, deep in the bowels of Hethel, there is some highly motivated Lotus engineer with horn rimmed glasses (complete with taped up temples) hard at work developing some kind of aftermarket velcro-attached passenger side airbag (and sensor) for the Exige S, so that it may legally qualify for U.S. importation.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Iconic Ride

[softlips 19]

They need more than a passenger airbag, guy at Hethel was telling me all the things that would need changing and testing to meet standards, it was quite a list.

[Bentzion 5]

My opinion is, even if it was made legal in the US. at $90k it would have a really hard time selling in a market that although the cars that are more plush are more expensive they are cars that are less hard core but quick.  It's all about the pose the car helps you to strike with the Nouveau Riche. 

[Bibs 11,144]

Bahar vs DRB set for High Court in 2014

[Stirling_Villeneuve 105]

TFL Big Day Out ?

 

Will it be drinks on DB or DRB? 

[Bibs 11,144]

We could take a picnic

[mdavies 74]

Suspect low chance of legal drama and a high probability of the sandwiches being eaten in the local museum or gallery!

 

Most commercial cases settle, even "on the steps of the court" unless one party actually wants to expose matters to the public. There doesn't seem any reason why a parading of the two sets of perceptions and allegations would be advantageous to either. An undisclosed settlement with a statement withdrawing allegations is my bet. (We won't know, but I'd put the number at circa £1.5m.)

[Knightewolfe 3]

Okay, I know I am way late to this discussion (and I've been following it for the past few days).  I joined this forum (today) just to comment on this thread. 

 

I agree with the status quo about Lotus getting on with selling the Evora, Elise, and Exige to make some quick capital.  However, I've noticed a common frustration point running through the thread about why not an Elan.  Of course the big answer to that is Lotus doesn't have the cash, but my question is, do they have a basic design premise or at least a mockup.

 

If they do and are trying to find an engine, why not have Lotus talk to Toyota about licensing the 2.0L Boxer 4-cylinder used in the Toyota GT86/Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ and working that infamous Lotus Engineering know-how in creating their version of such an engine.  Using a 2.0L Flat -4 engine in a midship configuration using the same transmission as the Evora/Elise/Exige would, IMO, work quite well.  Keep this new Elan in the same class sizewise as the new MX-5/Alfa Romeo platform and price range, get all the necessary testing done for it to sell in the US and its possible that they may make enough cash to break even.

 

Like a lot of this thread's respondants I also believe that Lotus does need a halo car like a new Esprit. The Lotus Esprit from the James Bond movies is what caused me to be a fan of Lotus in the first place. Though I have never owned nor driven an Esprit (Can't afford one. but I can dream about owning one in the future) I do love the design and engineering of the Esprit and Turbo Esprit.

 

Continuing on, I believe that a new Esprit (whenever it comes out) should use an elongated and slightly widened Evora S Chassis. For an engine to motivate this new Esprit, Lotus could (and IMO, should) ask Ford/Lincoln Mercury for the plans to the old V8 engine from the Lincoln LS V8 (the one Lincoln was afraid to hitch up to a manual transmission because they thought the trans wouldn't be able to handle the power) study it, engineer a mid-engine version of it, and speak with either Tremec or Getrag about creating a 6-speed manual (no damn Duel Clutch trans. That would take away from the reason we love Lotus') transmission to work with that 3.9/4.0/4.1L V8 to motivate a new Esprit.  Once it has been out for a year or so (maybe a year and a half), supercharge the engine a la the Evora S and sell it as either a new Turbo Esprit or an Esprit S.  These ideas of mine may be pipe dreams right now but I believe it could be possible.

 

 

For now, race the Evora, Elise, and Exige in every GT racing series you can. Super GT, World GT, Pirelli World Challenge, American Le Mans, BTCC, etc.  Race it everywhere they can be raced.  Exige V6 GT Cup, wherever, assign Lotus Engineers to the teams to gather data to put into the Lotus Road Cars.  Continue to support the Lotus F1 team and in the future, I'd wanna see the Lotus F1 team using Lotus build chassis, Lotus Engines and transmissions.  Everything Lotus.

 

We fans love Lotus to much to see it go the way of the dinosaurs. When I do have kids and grandkids, I want them to know the Lotus that I know now and the Lotus that will be there in the future.

 

Long, Live, LOTUS!!

 

KW

Edited September 12, 2013 by Knightewolfe

[Kimbers 1,781]

Okay, I know I am way late to this discussion (and I've been following it for the past few days).  I joined this forum (today) just to comment on this thread. 

 

I agree with the status quo about Lotus getting on with selling the Evora, Elise, and Exige to make some quick capital.  However, I've noticed a common frustration point running through the thread about why not an Elan.  Of course the big answer to that is Lotus doesn't have the cash, but my question is, do they have a basic design premise or at least a mockup..

 

Like a lot of this thread's respondants I also believe that Lotus does need a halo car like a new Esprit. The Lotus Esprit from the James Bond movies is what caused me to be a fan of Lotus in the first place.

 

Continuing on, I believe that a new Esprit (whenever it comes out) should use an elongated and slightly widened Evora S Chassis. .  Once it has been out for a year or so (maybe a year and a half), supercharge the engine a la the Evora S and sell it as either a new Turbo Esprit or an Esprit S.  These ideas of mine may be pipe dreams right now but I believe it could be possible.

 

We fans love Lotus to much to see it go the way of the dinosaurs. When I do have kids and grandkids, I want them to know the Lotus that I know now and the Lotus that will be there in the future.

 

Long, Live, LOTUS!!

 

KW

Hey KW. Thanks for the input.

 

Please introduce yourself in the introduction section. Your comments are interesting and insightful and show a good level of understanding and agreement with our community. We would love to hear more from you.

 

If I can respond in part to your comments:

 

The Evora, Elise and Exige sales are picking up nicely to the point that Lotus are advertising for more Engineers and Production Staff.

 

I think the model line up requires the Esprit more than the Elan. I think the Elan would be in competition with the current line up whereas an Esprit would compliment it! The Esprit, you are correct, was what got a lot of enthusiasts into Lotus in the first place but it is also an iconic car for Lotus, having been it's flagship for so many years.

 

I speak from personal knowledge when I say that you aren't far off the mark with your idea's for a new Esprit. MJK and his team (prior to the DB fiasco) had already done mock ups and a lot of development work on a 2 seater MES (Mid Engined Supercar) that was based on the Evora's revolutionary Chassis and suspension. They were negotiating for a V8 to put in it and myself and a select few potential customers had seen the car in the flesh. Though it shared a "family" resemblence to the Evora it was "Squat-er" sitting lower with flared arches and that supercar look. It would have been out for a few years now if DB hadn't canned it because he wanted his "non Lotus designed generic Italian supercar" look. Shame.

 

There were also plans to further "Superfy" it and even a design on the table for either an extreme version or an all new Supercar above it (maybe a 10 cyl).

 

Wish I had a picture of it to show you but sadly the old man left those behind when he retired and DB got rid of everything.

[Gabber 4]

Kimbers do you happen to know what lotus is working on right now ?

 

Do not want to be critical but to be honest don't you think the Bahar Esprit looked much better then the MJK one ?

[Kimbers 1,781]

I didn't think so Serge.

 

I thought the Bahar Esprit (which wasn't designed by Lotus or at Lotus) looked like a Generic Italian Sports car. It didn't stand out from the crowd, it didn't fit into Lotus's ethos or DNA and it was far too expensive for what is a British brand that offers Value and performance!

 

If you had seen the MJK Era Esprit it was a lot different from the Evora, sitting squat and it almost had that Zonda look from the sides, with the smaller cabin but long supercar base. 

 

Anything I know is from Lotus guys who I drink and play cards with, so I do know a little but I wouldn't betray any confidences and say anything.

[Mark Blanchard 1,645]

[Stirling_Villeneuve 105]

Well... I have to say I do prefer Dany's however, as the new regime are unlikely to come up with anything whatsoever, ( and in the unlikely event they do they won't tell anyone about it! )... it's all academic.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Stirling_Villeneuve