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Lotus in the post DB era


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Hmmm BMW vs VAG through Lotus vs Porsche!

Sorry, getting carried away ;-) bit of an optimistic dreamer but what an amazing partnership that could be.

 

I would rather cut my nads off and feed them to Dany Bahar whilst reading from the Necronomicon and summoning the Devil to wed me and Dany in unholy matrimony, than see that!

 

Lotus with BMW.......brrrrr it just got cold in here...

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Just thinking, maybe we should close this thread and start a new one "Lotus in the JMG era" - in the hope that it will be a long and prosperous one.

Good hair but that last sentence earns him a kick in the balls next time I see him, what a knob.   http://www.sapu.net/want-a-e1m-car-like-nothing-else-on-the-road-dany-bahars-your-man/  

Yup, and it would be niggle free from lessons learnt from 5 years of Evora. Offer different engines/transmission packages... 1.6-1.8 turbo 3.5 Supercharged from Evora/Exige How can something th

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BMW the company that got the best bits of Rover group; and then s*it on the rest of the (British) workers....then sold Land Rover and made an even bigger killing. God i hope not  

Darryl & Sue

Proud to drive and own a true British supercar the Evora GT430

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The only company whose engines I'd really like to see in a Lotus right now is JLR. Get that 3L supercharged V6 and it's 380 bhp in the Evora stat! Then the 550 bhp V8 needs to find his way to the new Esprit and the 2l turbo of the Evoque would feel so free in the Elise...  

 

JLR needs to provide Those who ask nicely with crate engines ASAP.  

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BMW indeed screwed Rover and I get it. Not very cool at all.

My thoughts were on its achievements with RR at Goodwood and Mini in Oxford.. Both utter leaders and global success stories in dynamics, quality and branding! Not maybe to yours or my taste but I bet the boys at Goodwood and Oxford don't mind BMW's investment by proper management.. They created jobs.

Given that Lotus needs money and a focus on quality it didn't seem such a bad owner with all that expertise in the key areas Lotus lacks. Looks like DRB Hicom are doing it so fingers crossed Lotus gets the investment it deserves.

Nedasay, that engine line up is a better one than mine!! TATA at JLR is a great example of how a foreign car manufacturer can really turn a disaster into a triumph.

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Lets not forget the original MJK Esprit (MES in the Lotus jargon at the time) was being engineered with the BMW V8. They then moved to the Lexus LFA engine (or IS-F, I don't recall exactly). I was speaking with Russell Carr at the Evora preview at Murray Motors who was bemoaning the fact that MES was having to be re-engineered for the new engine. My guess is having gone for the Toyota V6 in the Evora, the V8 became affordable based on the volumes Lotus were predicting at the time.

 

Then of course DB canned it all (although the Paris show car/concept sported the IS-F engine) and Wolf started the 'in-house' V8. Given that they had that engine running on the bench and then sat in the back of a couple of mules a lot of money was spent. If DRB have written all that development off and are starting from scratch it must have been a very painful decision.

 

I've also suggested the JLR approach given the range of options available. At least it would be a 'British' engine, albeit developed with TATA cash. 

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don't mind a Lexus V8 although i would prefer a TATA backed JLR V8 engine; but would be very disappointed with anything from BMW TBH

Darryl & Sue

Proud to drive and own a true British supercar the Evora GT430

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If DRB has decided to pick up the tab and kept going with the in-house V8 then they'll need to derive a V6 from it.  The 4.8L V8 alone won't be sustainable unless then plan on selling/marketing the next Esprit as a Koenigsegg Agera R or Pagani Huayura. If they decide to market the car more modestly as a 12C, 458, Cabrera competitor, then they'll need to get as much of this engine DNA in other cars, that would mean that the Bahar engine plan is kept and Evora phase 2 would get a 3.6L V6.  That V6 would have all internal organs of the V8 bar 2 cylinders and the trick would be to mate it with a transaxle gearbox...

 

If the Esprit is released next year! Wishful thinking!! They'll need another 2 years to develop/prove the V6  the engine block is cheap to build ; the pistons, cams and all ancillaries are the expensive bits. Advantage the in house V8 is close in size to the Koenigsegg engine, read tiny (170/180kg) so a V6 would be smaller and lighter 130/140kg (if you shave 2 cyl from the engine block), for the sake of comparing them the current  2GR-FE weighs 162kg, the 2GR-FSE with diesel injection weighs 174kg. So the engine would tick all the right boxes when it comes to the Lotus DNA.

 

The problems with in house engine: they cost pretty penny in homologation, especially if you've cut corner. They mean dealer extensive training on how to fix stuff when they break (especially with german high tech designs). Parts come at a premium because they are not produced in sufficient numbers. Regardless of how extensive the testing was, the minute they are in the customer's hands, they start breaking down (MP4-12C) like flies. Fail to mate them with the proper gearbox and you can kill the car (Esprit V8). It's not enough to design the engine you need to spend the money developing it, as regularly or more regularly than cars themselves, due to emission regulations that are getting stricter and stricter.  

 

If DRB signed on the Wolf design, it means Lotus has a HWA "AMG" worthy engine on shelves. However it was designed on a shoestring budget, but by one of the best engine designer of the past few years. If Wolf did it properly, this engine is bonkers, but if the development program was botched in any way then Lotus should bite the bullet and move on. But if they didn't and the engine is good then... They have such a winner, it'd be almost criminal not to produce it. I'm saying Pagani Zonda S worthy kind of thing no less, or even McLaren-Mercedes SLR kind of thing. Numbing, eyes-crying, mouth-watering goodness of an engine.

 

But they'll need the gearbox to match and that alone may make not Esprit but the Evora a lot more expensive.

Edited by NedaSay
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What if the tide has turned on big engines just as Lotus are ready to market a homegrown V6 and a V8? Environmental/ emissions issues are going to ge a lot tighter (expensive) to circumvent. They would have spent their cash on a low volume engine in a shrinking sector. Why not instead build a 2.0L and 2.2 in line four in n/a and turbo versions and use it to power Elise/Evora/Esprit......

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with a hispec (in house V8 SC or turbo) engine and proper sorted g'box in the top of the range Evora (proper sports model) lighter, more power with 7 speed box; dont think there would be an issue with Lotus charging proper money......., i still believe the Evora S is under priced!

 

sitting back waiting for the abuse

 

Edited by DarrylV8

Darryl & Sue

Proud to drive and own a true British supercar the Evora GT430

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Could I please get this drivetrain in the Evora: 

volkswagen-design-vision-gti-worthersee-

3 Liter V6, 503 BHP, Dual Clutch gearbox

 

http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-news/volkswagen-design-vision-gti/

Edited by TBD

If you have the choice between a Stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell don't forget the Nomex®!

Captain,  Lotus Airways. We fly lower! 

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That's it TBD, if only ehh :-)

I bet Lotus has tried hard for a better transmission.. but in the volumes they sell I'd also bet that the likes of Getrag GmbH (who does Ferrari and Graziano who does Mclaren) couldn't do it for Lotus's minimal budget...

Its would be too expensive for Lotus unless of course they partner up with a big gun.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place, the story of Lotus for decades.

"JUST IMAGINE WATCHING THE GOINGS-ON, TRYING TO make sense of it all.You turn up to work to see virtually your entire board of directors, one by one, being searched by security guards and frog-marched off the premises, never to return. It becomes known that upward of a dozen serious buyers are sniffing around the company you work of, and you even read, on three separate occasions, press reports that it has actually been "sold". In a four year era, you see more than 30 directors walk in, and walk out again. Three other of your chairman's Multi-million-pound businesses go bust. Your ex-finance director is accused by your chairman of making off with the company Bentley Turbo R. Several months' wage packets arrive late, because the company doesn't have the readies to pay. Yet against the background, you produce an acknowledged world-beater in the Elise -and for a time wonder if it will ever make series production. Welcome to Lotus." (After the Storm - Car Magazine Jan 1997)

Sound familiar in terms of directors and drama! I kept this magazine not because I'm weird but because it has a great article on the Esprit GT3 in Orange. I still adore everything about this car. The spec, power to weight and looks are still just as impressive 16 years later. I will have one. One day!

Cheers,

A ;-)

P.S http://scottwalkers.com/cars/car.php?id=150

If it were orange my wife would be v angry at what I might have to do!

Edited by auRouge
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What if the tide has turned on big engines just as Lotus are ready to market a homegrown V6 and a V8? Environmental/ emissions issues are going to ge a lot tighter (expensive) to circumvent. They would have spent their cash on a low volume engine in a shrinking sector. Why not instead build a 2.0L and 2.2 in line four in n/a and turbo versions and use it to power Elise/Evora/Esprit......

 

And why bother developing your own inline 4 if you can source it from a reputable supplier? The reason is always the same cost! Can you find a way to make it a bit cheaper and suit your needs better?  Buying an engine from an outside supplier means that you need to go by the supplier's rule. Lotus experienced that with the end of the 2ZZ. It left the Elise without a proper engine for two year. Lotus is not aligned with any group right now. Even if they are owned by Proton, they stand alone and DRB people are in charge. They were close to Toyota but DB's management has probably damaged the relation quite a bit by saying that Toyota was the exclusive supplier of choice of Lotus before announcing the new V8. They just need to source new engines for all their cars before the 2016.   

 

If you have a V8 you can automatically generate an inline 4 offshoot. That is an easy thing to do, the new 4 cylinder - M133 - AMG from the Mercedes A45 is actually just one side of the new Mercedes AMG 4.0L twin turbo V8 that is due to hit production early next year and will be the new workhorse of the AMG range. You can go either way, start with a V8 and downsize or start with an inline 4 and upsize.

 

I think the reason the Evora got a V6 is part perception too, 4 cylinders will never have the aura of 6 and 8 cylinders, 8 cylinders will never have the aura of a 12. The Esprit V8 was born for that very reason, With a proper (reliable) gearbox back then the car would have sold in much higher numbers. When DB and Wolf talked about the V8 it was to be modular by design. It's hard to get people to get stoked about a 4 cyl, but to speak of a brand new V8...

 

Besides when you look at McLaren or Koenigsegg to a lesser extent, I'm not so sure the tide has turn. Yes, I think engines have to get smaller, more fuel efficient, emitting less and less CO2 and particles but I don't think it means the end of V6s and V8s.  

 

BMW has found a solution to this, it's not the number of cylinder, it's the cylinder itself. they have to be identical and therefore mass produced. Today the same cylinder head is used in every BMW engine regardless of engine capacity, from the 1.5L inline 3 to the biggest baddest 4.8L twin turbo V8 the cylinders are interchangeable and so is pretty much everything else but the block which is the"cheapest" thing to build while the new shafts are now modular and can be extended from 3 to 6 cylinders.

 

 

It's interesting to note that Mercedes and JLR engines are following the same route. 

Edited by NedaSay
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Here's how that V8 would have looked in the Esprit... looooow

 

It would have been used as the basis for the V6 and inline 4 too! 

 

post-1-0-94134600-1385654974.jpg

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Lexus IS-F engine is a fine, strong, motor, the LF-A V10 is one of the most glorious ever!

 

I doubt Toyota would want any other car using the V10 but that was the dream Esprit powertrain for me - even over their own bespoke V8. They did that before and it didn't work out too well. Reliability and dependability still has to be a priority for Lotus if they are ever to overcome their reputation in the eyes of many. A Toyota powertrain gives you that.

 

Having owned and much enjoyed the bestial Speed Six in the TVR Tuscan even though I never experienced any mechanical issues at all during my ownership, there was always that nagging doubt when you were far from home. With a Lexus/Toyota engine behind you that goes away completely.

 

I'm with Darryl on the idea of a Lotus with a BMW engine. That just doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't want one in a Morgan either. I'd rather just have a whole BMW.

 

I like the idea of a Honda engine but they don't really do any high performance engines at the moment (and I bet they are precious so-and-so's to work with). I think they should stick with Toyota for the foreseeable future.

 

But I'm quite glad the Bahar Esprit has been canned. A new Esprit needs to be stop the world in its tracks. That one was was no better than OK looking. A 458 wannabe. A new Esprit should render the 458 invisible.

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One thing that surprises me is that you can actually make a transverse engine look good, as in the VW I posted above.

The fact that Toyota isn't capable of doing that is one thing that annoys me in the Evora. The Evora needs that cover and the Exige V6 proves the fact.

If you have the choice between a Stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell don't forget the Nomex®!

Captain,  Lotus Airways. We fly lower! 

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What if the tide has turned on big engines just as Lotus are ready to market a homegrown V6 and a V8? Environmental/ emissions issues are going to ge a lot tighter (expensive) to circumvent. They would have spent their cash on a low volume engine in a shrinking sector. Why not instead build a 2.0L and 2.2 in line four in n/a and turbo versions and use it to power Elise/Evora/Esprit......

 

I agree with this. I was a huge supporter of the Bahar plan as it seemed so incredible but convincing at the time.

 

Now I feel Lotus needs to concentrate on a single drivetrain that they can re-engineer for a series of different models and customers. Many of the engine parts will most likely have to be bought in. I get that V6 and V8 cars naturally sound better, but with clever engineering four cylinders can also produce a fantastic noise! Apart from the late 90's Esprit 4 cylinder engines have dominated Lotus' past after all.

 

The Alfa 4C and up coming Caterham/Alpine twins are Lotus' natural competitors, so in my opinion they need a new Elise, Exige and a 2 seat Esprit to replace the Evora, with a price range of £40K to £70K (excluding limited run halo models and racing versions).

 

If Lotus tries to directly take on the 458 on a limited budget it will be a disaster despite the know how Lotus has sadly, and engineering dates quickly. If the Esprit hasn't been worked on much for the past two years they'll need to spend a fortune to make sure that it has a reasonable shelf life after launch. £10 million won't go that far in the modern era.

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Seems this thread has come "full circle" on the I4 vs V8 (or V10) engine issue once more. Europe seems quite comfortable, for historical and energy cost reasons, with having highly tweaked 4 bangers readily perceived as sufficient power plants in performance cars. But that perception remains a hard sell in the U.S. for most enthusiasts. It matters not if this state of affairs is brought on by all the wrong reasons...it is what it is. "Muscle Car Madness" is an inherent trait in the Colonial genotype. "Exotics" (and I include the Esprit in that category, especially the envisioned "New Esprit" concepts prognosticated to date) saddled with small displacement engines, even those with stellar HP per cubic inch output, would have a difficult time finding a large audience in The States. And the U.S. has historically been an economic lynchpin for the Lotus coffers. That may change as other replacement markets, e.g. the Far East, are more firmly developed. But until such time, a reversion to the "good ol' days" of 4 pot Esprits is likely not a viable business plan.

 

Which, of course, begs the question, could a well engineered high performance V6 serve as a "paradigm shift" transitional power plant?  Dunno. The jury's still out on that one.

Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/18/honda-releases-audio-of-their-2015-f1-v6-turbo-engine/

Never a V12/V8 sound but sounds alright and will pack a punch! defo the end of an era... maybe time to move on and get excited about a V6! (going to hide under my sofa!)

Cheers A ;-)

Edited by auRouge
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Seems this thread has come "full circle" on the I4 vs V8 (or V10) engine issue once more. Europe seems quite comfortable, for historical and energy cost reasons, with having highly tweaked 4 bangers readily perceived as sufficient power plants in performance cars. But that perception remains a hard sell in the U.S. for most enthusiasts. It matters not if this state of affairs is brought on by all the wrong reasons...it is what it is. "Muscle Car Madness" is an inherent trait in the Colonial genotype. "Exotics" (and I include the Esprit in that category, especially the envisioned "New Esprit" concepts prognosticated to date) saddled with small displacement engines, even those with stellar HP per cubic inch output, would have a difficult time finding a large audience in The States. And the U.S. has historically been an economic lynchpin for the Lotus coffers. That may change as other replacement markets, e.g. the Far East, are more firmly developed. But until such time, a reversion to the "good ol' days" of 4 pot Esprits is likely not a viable business plan.

 

Which, of course, begs the question, could a well engineered high performance V6 serve as a "paradigm shift" transitional power plant?  Dunno. The jury's still out on that one.

Again we have to come back to the second most discussed carmaker on this forum. Porsche seems to manage the positioning of a 6 cyl. engine in the luxury car market very well -  even in the US. The Esprit, if it ever hits the market, will again more likely be positioned against the 911 Turbo than, for example, the Avantador or LaFerrrari.

 

May the 6-cyl. turbo rule.  :robo:

Edited by TBD

If you have the choice between a Stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell don't forget the Nomex®!

Captain,  Lotus Airways. We fly lower! 

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I agree with this. I was a huge supporter of the Bahar plan as it seemed so incredible but convincing at the time.

 

Now I feel Lotus needs to concentrate on a single drivetrain that they can re-engineer for a series of different models and customers. Many of the engine parts will most likely have to be bought in. I get that V6 and V8 cars naturally sound better, but with clever engineering four cylinders can also produce a fantastic noise! Apart from the late 90's Esprit 4 cylinder engines have dominated Lotus' past after all.

 

The Alfa 4C and up coming Caterham/Alpine twins are Lotus' natural competitors, so in my opinion they need a new Elise, Exige and a 2 seat Esprit to replace the Evora, with a price range of £40K to £70K (excluding limited run halo models and racing versions).

 

If Lotus tries to directly take on the 458 on a limited budget it will be a disaster despite the know how Lotus has sadly, and engineering dates quickly. If the Esprit hasn't been worked on much for the past two years they'll need to spend a fortune to make sure that it has a reasonable shelf life after launch. £10 million won't go that far in the modern era.

 

not sure why we are expecting the Evora replacement to only cost £5K more than the Evora S sports racer that it will replace as its bench mark

 

the Exige in coupe/roadster guise with any kit is £60K 

 

Lotus need to have a top end car (Esprit, Elan, Evora or ???) with the quality that is to be expected now, at the proper price;  the Evora face lift needs to fill in, in the meantime, but seriously can't see the Lotus range leader to be less than £100K indeed I will be amazed 

Darryl & Sue

Proud to drive and own a true British supercar the Evora GT430

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BMW? :hrhr: :hrhr: Probably one of the most sterile and overhyped saloon car maker out there! Do people really still believe all that Ultimate Driving rubbish? Jeeze.

Speechless.

Let's forget the iconic M3 & M5 for a moment. Take the baby 1M Coupe just as an example of "rubbish"..

"The 1-series M Coupe is one of our favourite performance cars of recent years. It beat the Porsche Cayman R and Audi TT RS in our sports coupe group test before vanquishing the Lamborghini Aventador, Ferrari FF and its BMW M5 bigger brother for a heroic podium finish in evo Car of the Year 2011."

World leading motoring journalists who devote themselves to driving and scrutinising one or two cars currently in production... Read this months Evo (Jan 2014 edition) on the Exige V6 Cup and the Back on Top article... all nonsense ehh?

Maybe my standards are higher than those of your typical sales rep BMW driver.

Rolls Royce... Does anyone know if they share the odd bit of R & D to enhance each other's cars? Maybe a part or two, a 6.75 L V12 engine sourced from BMW perhaps? They'd never dream of using the odd 7 series part in it? RR is thriving and making new cars. Wouldn't it be nice if Lotus had the chance of making a new Elan or Esprit?

IF DRB didn't in the post DB era sort Lotus out then TATA would be interesting as it sits well politically.. but BMW also knows a thing or two about how to sort out a worthy British car manufacturer:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/richebetspics/5797130093/

Shame nobody in the UK is willing to try and buy it, but that's another story...

Cheers,

A

(Going into hiding back in the Evora forum before the barrage of righteous condescending statements begins! Merry Christmas & HNY!!)

Edited by auRouge
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Ok so if Lotus is building the new esprit and that car is using the original Donato Coco albeit slightly modified, I guess it's time for a redesign cause: original_1.jpg

 

 

ku-xlarge.jpg

 

 

It's pretty much the Coco design with a more up to date and dynamic design and this new Lamborghini Huracan is absolutely bonkers to look at in my book, It's pretty much an evocation of the original Lotus Esprit design.

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