WC CC pump problems?

[Artie]

Guys,

I've just fitted a custom chargecooler heat exchanger the same size as the stock SE unit, except I had it made with vertical pipes instead of lateral pipes, this allowed for about 20% more capacity. I am trying to get flow to the unit but I can't even get flow to the front pipes much less thru the core. The core is a little restrictive as it takes some pressure to get air thru it, but I hooked up a water hose to the tap and turned it on very little and water flowed thru. Anyone else had problems getting these pumps to really push water? I'm totally perplexed, perhaps I need a heavier duty pump?! Ideas

Art

[CarlC]

Hi Art,

Took me a while to master the WC CC Electric Pump . The key seems to be its location. I have had to mount mine very low down on the chassis rather than neatly on the back of the boot floor cover next to the CC. The key it it running is that it must always have water in it. So its got to be well below the header tank and CC in the car.

Also it does take an age to fully flush all the air out of the system. The best way I found to do this is to follow the LEW guide and use a large bucket mounted on top of the CC feeding the pump. The pump is easily able to suck the water up and out of the bucket and down to push it into the rads which in turn force it through the CC. I then ran the outlet from the CC to another bucket on the floor. Have a spare bucket to hand and keep swapping the floor bucket over with the empty one until no bubbles are appearing. Obviously empty the floor bucket out into the bucket ontop of the CC when it gets full.

Once this has been done switch of the ignition reconnect to CC remove the refill plug on top of cc and let it run continually topping up through the refill on CC. Throughout this process I had crimped of the CC overflow/expansion pipe to header tank. Once the CC refill hole is holding the water level replace the blanking plug remove the crimp from the expansion pipe. Go for a run and top up as required.

I hope thats what you where asking ?

[Artie]

Hi Art,

Took me a while to master the WC CC Electric Pump . The key seems to be its location. I have had to mount mine very low down on the chassis rather than neatly on the back of the boot floor cover next to the CC. The key it it running is that it must always have water in it. So its got to be well below the header tank and CC in the car.

Also it does take an age to fully flush all the air out of the system. The best way I found to do this is to follow the LEW guide and use a large bucket mounted on top of the CC feeding the pump. The pump is easily able to suck the water up and out of the bucket and down to push it into the rads which in turn force it through the CC. I then ran the outlet from the CC to another bucket on the floor. Have a spare bucket to hand and keep swapping the floor bucket over with the empty one until no bubbles are appearing. Obviously empty the floor bucket out into the bucket ontop of the CC when it gets full.

Once this has been done switch of the ignition reconnect to CC remove the refill plug on top of cc and let it run continually topping up through the refill on CC. Throughout this process I had crimped of the CC overflow/expansion pipe to header tank. Once the CC refill hole is holding the water level replace the blanking plug remove the crimp from the expansion pipe. Go for a run and top up as required.

I hope thats what you where asking ?

Carl,

Pretty much, I have the pump mounted down under the airbox on the frame rail with zip ties. I must still have some air somewhere or something, I'm about to pull my hair out. I think perhaps the airlock is in the cc itself because when I pull the blanking plug water overflows out of the hole. I can get the pump to pump for a few seconds but it isn't developing enough pressure to push the water to the rads in front it comes out as a "piss" not a flow as it should. I'm stumped, something so relatively simple yet I'm at my wits end. Been messing with it for the better part of the weekend. BTW, did you have a chance to look at the new freescan logs I sent the other day?

Art

[CarlC]

I had a breif look throught the comms log and there does appear to be big holes or should I say '0's in the log where I would expect to see data. However, I balls up this weekend as I've been attempting to remove my leaking steering rack and forgot about recording a comms session for comparison. But I got the rack out tonight and Ill be back to the car tomorrow so I see what I can get out for comparison.

On the Pump front, I had waht sound like very similar problems when I first fitted mine. It would pump for a few seconds fine then stop pumping. When listening to the pump it sounded like air had got in and it makes a froffing/churning sound like a prop partially out of water. I had about 5 attempts between me and my old man trying to get it sorted. In the end I had to take a VERY methodical aproach and leave nothing to chance. Avoid at all costs anything that could allow even small amounts of air into the system and when following the filling procedure try and keep the water system sealed. For example, the bucket on the CC must ALWAYS have water in and the suction pipe out of this bucket must always be below in water. The whole process take about 45 minutes. And I left the system running extra long at time to ensure as much air was flushed as possible. It was a bitch to get right first time. But I think you find once you've done the process once you'll wonder why it seemed so difficult at first.'Hopefully'

The LEW guide is correct but it does get confusing in the middle part. If I can be of any further help please just ask.

Edited August 13, 2006 by CarlC

[Artie]

I had a breif look throught the comms log and there does appear to be big holes or should I say '0's in the log where I would expect to see data. However, I balls up this weekend as I've been attempting to remove my leaking steering rack and forgot about recording a comms session for comparison. But I got the rack out tonight and Ill be back to the car tomorrow so I see what I can get out for comparison.

On the Pump front, I had waht sound like very similar problems when I first fitted mine. It would pump for a few seconds fine then stop pumping. When listening to the pump it sounded like air had got in and it makes a froffing/churning sound like a prop partially out of water. I had about 5 attempts between me and my old man trying to get it sorted. In the end I had to take a VERY methodical aproach and leave nothing to chance. Avoid at all costs anything that could allow even small amounts of air into the system and when following the filling procedure try and keep the water system sealed. For example, the bucket on the CC must ALWAYS have water in and the suction pipe out of this bucket must always be below in water. The whole process take about 45 minutes. And I left the system running extra long at time to ensure as much air was flushed as possible. It was a bitch to get right first time. But I think you find once you've done the process once you'll wonder why it seemed so difficult at first.'Hopefully'

The LEW guide is correct but it does get confusing in the middle part. If I can be of any further help please just ask.

Great, yeah sorry about the crappy 0 logs, I think I forwarded you a new log with actual data, I'll email it to you again, take a look when you get time. I understand things take a long time to fix on these cars, good luck with the rack, already replaced mine. Any way I'll try to do the CC pump install a little differently, I definitely didn't do the bucket up high method, but makes good sense. I'll take another gander at it sometime this week....I'm anxious to feel the difference with a real chargecooler working(don't think it was ever working right since I installed it!)

ARt

[Artie]

Carl,

Also, did you hook up the suction side of the pump to the chargecooler and then outlet out to the rads? Right now I'm hooked up to pull water from the rads and force it uphill to the chargecooler against gravity, seems like a bad way to prime a pump, uphill! Note that this is how the mechanical pump was designed to run however.

Artie

[CarlC]

To be on the safe side I setup the pump exactly as lotus had done with the machanical one. The cooled water sucked from the rads to the pump and then forced up into the CC. Which sounds like exactly the same setup as you. I suspect you have also mounted the pump in exactly the same place as me from what you've said.

I dont think this is your problem but just in case and sorry for asking but have you made sure the pump mounted the right way around ? I know I was worried about this as the pump has no obvious marking to state which in in and which is out.

IIRC the centre most port is the outlet and the port coming of the side of the pump is the in.

Carl,

Also, did you hook up the suction side of the pump to the chargecooler and then outlet out to the rads? Right now I'm hooked up to pull water from the rads and force it uphill to the chargecooler against gravity, seems like a bad way to prime a pump, uphill! Note that this is how the mechanical pump was designed to run however.

Artie

Edited August 13, 2006 by CarlC

[Jonathan]

Pretty much as carl says, you have to have water on the suction side or the pump will cavitate and try to push air which is why the pump isn't pumping as such.

I just wonder when re-filling the system the pump is delivering too fast and causing your reservoir to go low...check out whether thats happening and if it is try briefly blipping the pump manually to get it to move smaller amounts of water around - failing that you can always use a pair of pliers to restrict the suction side of the pump which will put increased back pressure on it until it's fully circulating - once the system is sealed the pressure and suction of the pump should circulate it easily.

I like the way Katos done that CC job however I wonder why the air bleed was not opened (big nut on the chargecooler). The thing with the bucket is what you should do to check it though using it as a open loop reservoir.

If I were doing it (and I have to do it soon as my pump is on it's way) I'd be tempted to flush it and reconnect everything and fill up from the tank and the CC, you can pour fluid into the nut there (infact thats how you're supposed to fill it). I'd wire the pump tempory so I can switch it on and off manually and set it off whilst maintianing the levels in the tank and the CC...thats how I did the GT3 and how the manual says to do it, should work and you can check the flow through the chargecooler nut.

[Artie]

To be on the safe side I setup the pump exactly as lotus had done with the machanical one. The cooled water sucked from the rads to the pump and then forced up into the CC. Which sounds like exactly the same setup as you. I suspect you have also mounted the pump in exactly the same place as me from what you've said.

I dont think this is your problem but just in case and sorry for asking but have you made sure the pump mounted the right way around ? I know I was worried about this as the pump has no obvious marking to state which in in and which is out.

IIRC the centre most port is the outlet and the port coming of the side of the pump is the in.

No Carl, don't feel bad for asking as I could see someone not knowing which is inlet and which is outlet. I'm familiar with centrifugal pumps as this one is. Inlet is the same as like a turbo and the outlet is like the compressor outlet on a turbo! I'm fairly sure that's how it should be much like a mechanical water pump. Well I'll give it a go when I get a chance but what a pain! I love my Esprit, I love my Esprit, I love my Esprit.......

Art

[Jonathan]

Do it not have the flow direction marked on it ?

You could quickly hook it up to an open loop system...ie put a pipe on the pump and it in a bucket of water - you'll either get wet or not

[CarlC]

Jon -1 pint for taking the piss.

No, it doesnt have any markings on the pump at all.

After testing the damn thing to ensure I got it the right way round, fitting it and dicking about trying to get it to flow properly you cant help but question yourself when you can only get the damn thing to pump for a second or two before it stops. You then question the test you did hours earlier and doubt the results.

[Artie]

Jon -1 pint for taking the piss.

No, it doesnt have any markings on the pump at all.

After testing the damn thing to ensure I got it the right way round, fitting it and dicking about trying to get it to flow properly you cant help but question yourself when you can only get the damn thing to pump for a second or two before it stops. You then question the test you did hours earlier and doubt the results.

Right! I messed with it for a few more hours yesterday but still no real result. I did take the pump out and just hooked it up to the power supply and 2 jugs of water, one on the bench one on the floor. The center pipe is inlet(suction) and the other is the outlet. It flowed fine when siphoned the water into the pump via the downward hose(allowing gravity to help). I then fitted the pump back into the car, did the bucket method and got great flow. I shut it down and reconnected the hoses as required and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!Godammit! I will retry with the pump pulling water from the CC and try again using a supply bucket atop the chargecooler as this seemed to be the best method of feeding the pump(gravity is a helper here i've found). What a pain in the Arse! Thanks for all the moral support Carl

Art

[chandrab]

As Carl mentioned, the key is placement...Initially, mounted my MBZ aux cooling pump next to the chargecooler...only when I lowered the pump so it was slightly below the input of the chargecooler did I get it to flow correctly.

I should mentioned that I put a small section of reinforced, clear dishwasher hose to help me do the diagnostics...besides that it looks cool when it's circulating. Wish I could find some clear heater hose though.

Once I put the clear hose in, it was all of 15 minutes refilling until I got all the air out. Without the clear hose I was guessing if I had successfully bleed the system.

btw - I should mention that I noticed no difference between the CC working vs. broken. Should I have?

-Chandra

Edited August 14, 2006 by chandrab

[Jonathan]

I wernt taking the pish Carl, really most pumps should have a rotation and direction of flow on them, honest

Sounds like this is something I have got to look forward to ! Although i'm going for the same pump as Dermot did, has a much higher delivery rate for the paralleled chargecooler I want to run.

Chandra - you should notice about 45 extra horse power !

With the chargecooler not working the ECU usually sees the inlet temperature too high to allow over boost (ie more than 0.65bar), with overboost it's almost double that ! If you never noticed the problem you might have an over boost problem ?

[chandrab]

lol...I'm sure there is a difference, but I don't drive my car hard enough to see a difference. I'm confined to street driving only with plenty of police cars loitering around. I don't think my engine ever sees 4500+ rpm!

-Chandra

91SE (with working electric chargecooler)

Chandra - you should notice about 45 extra horse power !

With the chargecooler not working the ECU usually sees the inlet temperature too high to allow over boost (ie more than 0.65bar), with overboost it's almost double that ! If you never noticed the problem you might have an over boost problem ?

[DanR]

...Although i'm going for the same pump as Dermot did...

Me too. It took about a week to get here from Texas and arrived yesterday from Auto Performance Engineering <[email protected]>

I found they were the cheapest at $125US + $27postage. About half what it costs here in oz.

[Jonathan]

!

Thats about 1/2 their cost here too !!!

I was going to shell

[Mysterae]

I've been looking at the chargecooler circuit from my experiences of water cooling a computer (I know, I need to get out more). It's the exact same principal, you have a heat source (cpu/chargecooler), a radiator and a pump. You also need a point to bleed and top up the coolant, usually a T line or a reservior.

I couldn't find a better pic to colour in with my crayons, but you get the idea:

The image above is really to give an idea of the cooling path. In reality you wouldn't have a hot and a cold side as it would all reach an equilibrium temperature, 1-2C difference between the inlet and outlet of the radiator, depending on the efficiency of the radiator, car speed, load etc.

The electric pumps used in these kind of applications don't suck, they need constant water at the inlet for it to flow, hence the reason for the reservior/header tank. I've been looking at many of the pumps people use for car applications, and I can't find any the beat the Laing D5 (also called Swiftech MCP655) for flow (~317GPH, 1200LPH), head (10ft) or cost (

[chandrab]

Mysterae brings up a really good point, while your playing around with the chargecooler plumbing, take a few minutes to reverse flush the system...you won't believe the amount of crap that will come out.

The pump that I'm using is a Mercedes Auxilary Water Pump...It looks very similar to the Syclone/Jabsco Intercooler pump...It's easy to find and they are about $100 on ebay. Lotus also uses it on the V8 (I don't know for what purpose). I decide to use that because it's designed for automotive use and exist in harsh enviroments with coolant.

-Chandra

Edited August 15, 2006 by chandrab

[Artie]

Mysterae brings up a really good point, while your playing around with the chargecooler plumbing, take a few minutes to reverse flush the system...you won't believe the amount of crap that will come out.

The pump that I'm using is a Mercedes Auxilary Water Pump...It looks very similar to the Syclone/Jabsco Intercooler pump...It's easy to find and they are about $100 on ebay. Lotus also uses it on the V8 (I don't know for what purpose). I decide to use that because it's designed for automotive use and exist in harsh enviroments with coolant.

-Chandra

Okay, bled the system and finally getting some circulation, not the best but better than none. I'll test it out perhaps once it warms up it will pressurize and aid in the flow some. If not, I'm tempted to add a second pump in series on the downstream side to push coolant back up to the chargecooler. Anyone see a problem with this idea? I'm not concerned about adding 3 lbs of weight either, I just want my chargecooler to actually work properly!

Art

[CarlC]

Hi Art,

Im pleased to hear your making progress. Now you've got it circulating just run the engine till hot then clamp off the expansion pipe, remove the CC refill plug and keep topping it up. This will take a while but should help flush the remaining air out of the system. Obviously you can just leave the ignotion on and the engine off for this bit.

After a while of topping up youll find that the CC fill level stops dropping and just swirls right in the filler cap hole. Then you know you've cracked it !

By the sound of it the hard bits been done. B)

Also, Once the system is sealed Im not sure how the second pump would improve the flow as both pumps would just pump at their maximum rate anyway. I would doubt a second pump would give any improvement but Im no Hydrodynamisist.

[incautious]

I've posted this once before. Mount the pump at the FRONT of the car . There is plenty of room where the hoses go into the heat exchanger. And here's the REALLY NEAT trick. Talk two pairs of vice grips(locking pliers) and pinch off the hose in between where you are going to mount the pump cut the hose and mount the pump No other hose needed and NO PRIMING of the pump because it is at the lowest point of the cooling system. takes less that an hour( not many jobs on these things can be done in that amount of time) If I have time I will try and post pics. Also the fuse panel is right above the pump so no serching for a power source.

[CarlC]

Sounds good Bill, what have you secured the pump to ?

[Artie]

Sounds good Bill, what have you secured the pump to ?

I'll keep the front location in mind if I need the second pump, Carl the reason I mentioned the second pump is just incase the head pressure needed to flow thru my heat exchanger is too great for the one pump, the second pump will pick up the flow out of the heat exchanger back to the CC. This will be determined if the CC isn't cooling well enough when I drive the car in the next couple of days. Thanks for the topping up tip Carl, I suspect once I get all of the air out of the system the flow will improve especially when the system heats up and expands. I'll keep you posted.

Art

[CarlC]

Thanks Art,

I see your point now about the second pump.