free hit
counters
car won't start - Engine/Ancilliaries - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
e5pritV8

car won't start

Recommended Posts

My Esprit V8 has been parked for about a year, last week I tried to start the car but it is cranking only!

 

It was working fine the last time I started it!!! So anyway, I filled the car with fuel, as I knew it had about quarter tank.

 

I released the pressure from the fuel line, but only had a very weak spit of gas; I would think that if it was pressured properly it will spray quite good? 

 

I can hear the fuel pump when I put the ignition on, so it is not a fuse. The only work I was doing on the car was in the dash, I completely removed it, as I wanted to refresh the gauges and change the wood to carbon fiber  :thumbsup:  which went pretty good, now everything is in place and working (at least it seems this way).

 

There are no trouble codes as well. So any suggestions are appreciated 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

Take one of the vacuum hose, spray it with a starter fluid, crank it and see if it will momentarily start. There are a couple of vacuum hoses where you can put the spray nozzle starter fluid. In the front of the engine at the corner plenum also at the rear of the engine near the big blue hose (idle valve hose). If momentarily start and die...you know it's fuel issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you can measure the fuel pressure 'on prime' directly, on the Shraeder-valve port (RH fuel rail)

 

..ignition can be tested with sparkplugs out and if you ground every sparkplug.

 

to see if the injectors are trigered -simply lift up the plenum chamber, refit the TP and MAP cable ..and look inside of the inlet ports , while the starter spinns and the engine is cranked

Edited by Günter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take one of the vacuum hose, spray it with a starter fluid, crank it and see if it will momentarily start. There are a couple of vacuum hoses where you can put the spray nozzle starter fluid. In the front of the engine at the corner plenum also at the rear of the engine near the big blue hose (idle valve hose). If momentarily start and die...you know it's fuel issue.

I'll try that once I'm back, I doubt its the pumps though, They are less than 2 years old with only 1k miles.

 

 

Make sure the inertia switch hasn't tripped.

I pressed it. But the inertia switch should cut-off fuel, I will not hear the pump if it was tripped, am I right?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll try that once I'm back, I doubt its the pumps though, They are less than 2 years old with only 1k miles.

 

 

I pressed it. But the inertia switch should cut-off fuel, I will not hear the pump if it was tripped, am I right?? 

you're right, the inertia-switch is just a *circuit cut-off* system ..it cuts off the relais feed for the fuel-pumps and with the relay for the primary pump also all of the injectors.

(primary pump is contacted on the 87a-pin ..injector drivers are on 87-pin ..both go via 30 to the 25Amp fuse nb*B3)

 

So all you have to look after is 'measure the pressure on prime, and that it holds the pressure -see if both pumps start running on prime/cranking   ..as the system was meant to have both pumps to operate on start ..and on WOT-run (where injectors nb 9 & 10 are in use too ..)

 

test that there is actually squirt of fuel on all of the injectors comming as soon as the engine is cranked by the starter  ..and test every sparplug for function.

 

Most pf the V8 are slow on start, what means it needs some time to crank ..but as long as the battery is powerfull enough it should not crank so slow that it never fires.

 

If it only fires on some of the cylinders in the first few seconds and you have maybe some backfire sounds the ECM just tries to learn after this long period  ..but if it never fires there is maybe an signal gone lost, or you have no fuel-injection -or no ignition ..

Edited by Günter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you're right, the inertia-switch is just a *circuit cut-off* system ..it cuts off the relais feed for the fuel-pumps and with the relay for the primary pump also all of the injectors.

(primary pump is contacted on the 87a-pin ..injector drivers are on 87-pin ..both go via 30 to the 25Amp fuse nb*B3)

 

So all you have to look after is 'measure the pressure on prime, and that it holds the pressure -see if both pumps start running on prime/cranking   ..as the system was meant to have both pumps to operate on start ..and on WOT-run (where injectors nb 9 & 10 are in use too ..)

 

test that there is actually squirt of fuel on all of the injectors comming as soon as the engine is cranked by the starter  ..and test every sparplug for function.

 

Most pf the V8 are slow on start, what means it needs some time to crank ..but as long as the battery is powerfull enough it should not crank so slow that it never fires.

 

If it only fires on some of the cylinders in the first few seconds and you have maybe some backfire sounds the ECM just tries to learn after this long period  ..but if it never fires there is maybe an signal gone lost, or you have no fuel-injection -or no ignition ..

 

Unfortunately, I am in a business trip. I will have to wait till I get back.

 

The car did not fire at all, but now that I think about it, there was fuel smell after a couple of tries! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you need a clear spray of fuel (one that is vaporised enough) ..and ignition -so test the sparkplugs  ..to test the sparkplugs/wires/coils is actually more easy ..as it only means to mess up with current, not oily smelly fuel    :D

 

(of course, you should be carefull with high voltage things !)

Edited by Günter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a long business trip, and I got blessed by a new baby girl :D . I finally had time to work on my Esprit.

 

So, I have spark for sure, but the fuel pressure reads zero on the fuel rails.

 

I dont have the connection to test fuel coming from the pump directly, however, I really doubt the fuel pumps failed or that the filter is blocked! I think I will go ahead and change the regulator, then I we'll take it from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*fuel-pressure test equipement* in a double-case is available via EBay for cheap money (around 50€ and it works well, as I've tried it on mine.. something like this one -looks like *Made in China* but for the price you shouldn't care http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAC-TOOLS-FIT1200MS-MASTER-FUEL-INJECTION-TEST-KIT-CASE-New-Shop-Tune-Up-/221177336426?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337f32526a )

 

You can block the return path (undo the return line and fit a rubber-plug into it) and test the pressure now.  However, I would expect that just a pipe has come of inside the RH-tank, there on the 'twin' pump arrangement.

 

at least 3.5 -4bar should be there on the dial 'on prime'  ..and as soon as the pumps stop the pressure should not drop below 3bar

Edited by Günter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the V8 fuel pump had an OBD pressure sensor?

This would show a fault code if there was too low pressure.

 

A problem with leaving cars parked up for a long time can be corrosion in the plugs and sockets on the engine wiring loom. Might be an idea to pull each one and check (with a squirt of WD40 too).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

more in the way of a pressure sensor for the 'tank pressure'  ..as it looks -so it is only there for fuel EVAPoration and charcoal cannister ventilation regulations on those california/US/EU3 certified cars, with EGR and all that stuff

 

the two pumps just feed into the one line going out of the tank on top, after this it goes into the inlinefilter..now it goes around there in the twin 'serial' fuel-rail system, and via the pressure regulator back into the tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The regulator is not the problem, I blocked the return line after the regulator and still was reading zero pressure on the rail.

gonna have to pull the pumps out again :thumbdown: I was really trying to avoid that, as it is not the most fun job to do.

 

 

 

I thought the V8 fuel pump had an OBD pressure sensor?

This would show a fault code if there was too low pressure.

 

A problem with leaving cars parked up for a long time can be corrosion in the plugs and sockets on the engine wiring loom. Might be an idea to pull each one and check (with a squirt of WD40 too).

 

The sparks look good, I will give you an update once the pumps are out :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pumps are out :wallbash:  and the hoses are completely ......melt down.   :question:

 

I'm going to buy new hoses and a new fuel filter, just in case the melted parts went in the filter.

any suggestions on the type and size of hoses?

 

I'll attach some pics.

 

 

 

 
It goes without saying that these hoses were not made for fuel use. ;) 
Edited by e5pritV8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is not a factory fit ..as it looks teribble -so what ever the history is with your car, it is strange (maybe you allready have one of those where the previous owner changed the fuel pumps for an more easylie available type too..)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, these pumps are Walbro pumps, they have the same output capacity as the originals, but as you can see they don't fit the plastic pockets, and they cost about $100 each.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100$ each is a lot of money, nothing I would call cheap !  

..as you can get various fuel-pumps out there on EBay, you just need to compare ccm/min, max. pressure and dimension with the manufacturer chart /drawings on Google-pictures

 

..it is of course a lot of work, but for example I sourced three different pumps for project work on the Elise S1 this way from Ebay.

mostly labeled as *used*, but one of them allready wasn't realy in use -the previous owner just picked the wrong partnumber for his Nissan and could not exchange it with the parts-store .. . (sometimes those stories sound unreal, but in a lucky case like this I can be happy)

 

prices varied between 20-40€ each

 

 

Anyway, so you are the one who fitted those in place -so the black card is on your side ;)



as a note!

 

..don't use those cheapish hoses -labeled as Fuel-hose there available on EBay and auto-parts stores, those with metal on the outside, or fabric   ..as real (industrial use!) fuel-hoses have an additional layer inside, one that is fuel-resistand, something in a way of Teflon, Nitril or what ever it is named (don't know the exact name on this case..)  -at least you can see it inside, that the inner core is build up from differend material (and mostly more than one layer) than those from the outside (the fabric layer sits in the middle)

 

-what you show there looks just like ordinary water-cooling hoses, with only one layer made of simple rubber (the one that gets brittle in permanent contact with fuel) ..and a fabric covering outside.  So totally risky on this application

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done lots of search a while back and thanks to Steffen from Ramspott & Brandt, I got my hands on the original pump's specs.

 

The pumps I have installed now are the Walbro GSS340, you can check it out here:

 http://www.onlyfuelpumps.com/walbro-255lph-fuel-pump-gss340-400-812.html  

 

I was too concerned with the pressure specs of the hose and forgot all about the fuel resistance  :D 

 

I just got a new hose with the following specs: 5/16" SAE 30R6KX.

 

I'm still looking for the exact specs, I will try to get higher quality if possible (if I found any that is).

Edited by e5pritV8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SAE-R6 is specified for traditional-fuel, but Goodyear for example does not recommend it for pressured fuel (injection) ?

 

-my guess is, as it could slightly flex (expand) if used as a long fuel line, so the pressure characteristic would be instable in some ways (that is why most manufacturers nowadays have 'plastic' fuel lines in use to  -on outside made from rubber, for abrasion protection and with additional Polyamid PA12 type layer on the inside)

 

on those very short sections between the pumps and the collector you can of course try this SAE-R6 hose, it should be good enough, and as a pure 'rubber' type the fitment on the coupling is easier to handle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a lot of reading about hoses, and for my own peace of mind, I will go for an R10 hose which seems to be more suitable for submersible applications. :)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

isn't that 'a step to far' ..from point of use ?

 

..material numbers show that it is specified for hydraulic-cranes, brake hoses and such stuff

 

...so it will be very stiff and hard to handle, not to say you also get problems to fit a clamp on the joints tight enough ?

 

..mention that hydraulic pipes are normally fabricated with big steel ends to fit them onto various systems, those are crimped on the hose in a industrial way, with special hydraulic tools with lots of force ..nothing you can simulate by use of an simple hose-clamp & screwdriver   (at least not if the hydraulic hose used is one of those with additional steel layers inside, as armoured layer there in place of one of the nylon/fabric layers )

 

as said, I would just use the simpler SAE R6 type, as on the short sections you use there it seems to be nothing to wory on the pressure (you only have up to 4bar in the pump system)   ..or you can choose from this type, and equal ones * http://www.highqualityhose.com/detail.asp?id=710&page=6  ..it is more importand to have the different type of layers available on the hose, one that is resistand enough to hold the fuel inside, and the other rubber and enforcement types (fibre) for stability/pressure.   *EPDM inner core sounds good

 

material references are here, just for interest -if you need

http://www.buerkle.de/media/files/Downloads/Chemische_Bestaendigkeit_DE_2012.pdf

Edited by Günter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the SAE site 30R10 is for In-Tank, Low-Pressure, Uncoupled Fuel Hoses.What you are saying depends a lot on what application it is made for.

This is what I had in mind:

 

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=30342-18&Category_Code=

 

or

 

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=5091&location_id=541

 

BTW thanks for the material references, even though the document is in German, I can understand the info, but it takes time :book:  

 

 thanks again :)

Edited by e5pritV8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the last link, the Gates one showed a point I hadn't in mind ..but it is a important one -the fuel contact is on the outside as well as on the inside of the hose, as our application is an 'intank' system, right ..good find there !

 

What I have said prior was mainly with classic fuel-tank systems in mind, so it would only work over longer periods of use if it is a system with the pump outside of the tank (like on the older 4pot Esprit)



the mentioned Fluoroelastomer from the Gates-advert is also in the material-list above, so it is not a new invention ..you can find it as specificaion for example on engines, gearboxes and other 'machinery' ..it can resist oils, fuel and running temperatures of around 180°C  (VITON is a trade name of those higher rated radial sealings & O-rings in the market, done with Fluorelastomere ..whereas the cheaper sealings are made of NBR  -Nitrilbutadien)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can you not just go into an *autoparts-store* ..for the fuel-filter ? -as this filter is an ordinary part, used in many other cars ..it should even be listed in the *cross-ref. list*

Edited by Günter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×