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How do you rationalise the Connecticut shooting?

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Children who won't see this Christmas

 

I know the Constitution says that all Americans have the right to bear arms, but don't they have to be locked up and disabled with ammo kept in a completely separate place?

 

I was going to stick this in the Unhappy thread, but it's bigger than that. :(


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

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People in some parts of America can walk around in public with an armed gun. F*cked up if you ask me.

 

The Constitution was written a couple of hundred years ago when we'd only recently discovered the Earth wasn't flat and why apples fell from trees. Bit out of date now.


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In some parts of the US, concealed carrying of weapons is illegal...but having one's Glock 10 on one's hip ready for use is perfectly acceptable. As for the latest shooting....one cannot rationalise an irrational act. It's not the gun, it's the mad twerp with it...in the UK, the only citizens to have guns are the criminals, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. The countries with the most restrictive gun laws still get these sort of crazed shootings...remember Norway where 80 got killed by Anders Behring Breivik.


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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A reporter on the news tonight said that over in Newtown, someone from the pro-gun lobby asked why one of the teachers was not carrying a gun as they could have stopped this happening.


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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A reporter on the news tonight said that over in Newtown, someone from the pro-gun lobby asked why one of the teachers was not carrying a gun as they could have stopped this happening.

 

 

Unbelievable. Why don't they just arm the kids? That would have sorted it out too....


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Like others have said you can't rationalize. It was an irrational act by someone that obviously had problems that were ignored/avoided. I think there was a lot more going on with this young man that we will ever know. People will say he was a good/happy kid but he obviously wasn't. It's easy to go around blaming guns for this, and I'm sure people will try to find something like video games, movies, or TV to accuse as the cause. Everything but blaming the person that did it. The gun was merely a tool that he used, it didn't tell him to commit this act. He could have just have easily grabbed a knife and started stabbing, or driven a car through a large group of people.

 

If anything needs to be done there should be more support for people that have mental problems. Banning guns takes away one of many options a person has to kill people. I think there's also more that can be done to prevent people from entering a school and attacking children. 

 

To those that are mocking the arming of teachers, why is that such a bad idea? Nobody complains when a pilot is armed, or there's an air marshal on board. How is arming a teacher any different? What happened at this school is proof that nobody had any way to protect themselves. For those of you living outside the US what would you do if someone entered your workplace and started attacking people with a large knife or gun? I know where I work there would be several guns drawn upon any attacker.


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We still expect the Police to go up against armed criminals with an aerosol and a stick. Quite a few people have died as a consequence, when the Officers arriving first at an incident have been unable to do anything effective. Our gun laws have become steadily more restrictive after individual shocking occurrences...Dunblane, for example. Having read a lot about the circumstances, it seems to me that the chap was obviously in need of help...but was simply ostracised, and finally cracked in a spectacular and dreadful manner. As has been said, it doesn't have to be a gun..a Samurai sword was used in one such expression of madness. Don't forget that the whole World Trade Centre suicide attack hijackings were done with nothing more than a Stanley craft knife. 


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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The cat is out of the bag as far as guns go in the US.  The only people who respect the gun control laws are the law abiding people.   A government would never be able to recall all the guns, then it would just be them and the criminals.

 

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We need to outlaw crazy...


Travis

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"Old Europe" will never understand the irrationality of American gun legislation. Which is why I returned to Germany after 13 years in the US.

Maybe all the proponents can kill each other and rid the planet of this madness.


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I used to joke with a co-worker saying "statistics say that you are more likely to be shot by your own gun, than if you didn't own a gun".  He used to argue till he was blue in the face, his argument was "that you could be a faster better shot that the person who was shooting at you".  He didn't get that it is impossible to be shot by your own gun... if you don't own a gun.

 

In the case of the shooting yesterday in CT, the son didn't own any guns, he took his mother's guns and shot her and then went to the school.


Travis

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This school had a policy of locking all the doors, including the front entrance that was used by the gunman, at 9:30 AM each day. One assumes this delay was to permit the students to enter in the usual manner each morning prior to the first class of the day. The gunman is thought to have entered the building shortly before 9:30, probably well aware of the "lockdown" timing, as his mother apparently taught there on occasion, and he himself was once a student there as well.

 

In Austin every public middle school and high school has at least one armed law enforcement officer present during the school day. Not so for elementary schools. Who in their wildest imagination would think that an elementary school would be the venue for a mass murder event? This policy may now change. 

 

The U.S. is so inundated with weapons now that effective "gun control" is close to being a lost cause. As mentioned above, "the cat's out of the bag." To borrow another analogy, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. More than a few have suggested that the answer now is more guns in more hands. Perhaps there is some small modicum of logic in this view, but it strikes me as an extremely desperate measure. This is not a video game, and dead people don't "spawn."

 

I fully agree that the statistics show that if you own a gun you are much more likely to shoot a friend or family member than a "bad guy." Nonetheless our U.S. Supreme Court recently ruled that the individual choice to own a gun is protected by law. So be it. But if you adopt the "Wild West" mentality encompassed by that ruling you must be willing to accept the increased frequency of undesired outcomes that result.


Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.

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You will never convince me that the answer would be for more people to carry guns to avoid this sort of thing occurring. This would require that everyone that carries a gun knows everyone else that carries a gun so that in any scenario, people didn't end up shooting some other innocent who pulled a gun to stop the baddie.

 

Without uniforms on all the gun toting people, who knows who is the person to be stopped?

You pull a gun, expect to be shot at. Whether you are the first or the last.


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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There is no happy ever after here. And most possibly never will be. To make it easier on the whole world it would be a lot simpler to give all children semi automatics. There would be no more mass school shootings just occasional daily random killings, but at least that wouldn't make the news. The other alternative is also simple. Ban all auto and semi auto weapons. yes poeple will kick up a fuss, but I do know that we're a lot happier here since the rules came in.


Simon  (94 S4)      My Esprit will be for sale in late 2017

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In some states here in the USofA, you can carry your concealed gun into a BAR. In my county of 880k people, we average around 6-8 murders for shoes, coats, iPods, each and every week and some weeks, much more. You will not get the guns out of our citizens' hands. Simply too late for that. Most cases of people being armed during these sorts of events do not stop the event's progress. That is simply an NRA myth once one looks at the events and their outcomes on a case by case basis.

 

The biggest problem with guns is that they have a very long reach with an attendant multiple striking rate, unlike a knife or samurai sword. And this reach and rate is the problem, never mind the 30+  bullet magazines our free-wheeling assault weapon owners seem to say they need. At the back of my house in a Delaware private housing community, I can watch people shooting their rifles into dirt mounds not 50 yards away. Needless to say, I do not go to bars in Virgina any more and wish I had known I might be subject to ricochets while sunning myself on my rear deck before buying my house.

 

We do not live in a perfect world, and never will.

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In an ideal World the owning of a gun, by anyone other than a member of the armed forces, would be illegal. A person found to be carrying or owning a gun would have an automatic death sentence without a trial. Shoot them with the gun that they were carrying or owning.

 

Thy who live by the gun, die by the gun.

 

I would love to live in a totally gun free society, but alas I do not.

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Let me set out my stall..... I don't own a gun but do enjoy shooting (occasionally) on properly controlled ranges and have done so sporadically for over 40 years.

 

My heart agrees completely with Roger 912's sentiments but wouldn't there have to be certain exemptions for things like nature conservancy culls etc? My liking of the shooting process does not include ANY form of live target, even if food is the by product, but there are some instances where a firearm is the most efficient and humane solution.


In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.<br />

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In practice, there is!

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The problem is probably not the number of guns but, rather, the country's attitude to them.  Canada has as many guns per person as the US more or less but does not have the same rate of shootings  In Indianapolis, there seems to be a shooting or two about every day.  When I lived near San Francisco, there was a similar level of shootings in Oakland and a guy in our office who lived in Oakland was a victim of an armed mugging one night.

 

Most of these shootings, such as Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine, etc. were carried out with legally-owned guns.  There is some interesting information in this Washington Post article.

 

You shouldn't have to rely on someone being armed to protect you in case of armed bad guys coming to your place or work, shop or whatever.  That's a sign of a broken society.


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Flashback.  As a father of 2 children who were in Dunblane Primary school the day of our own version of this happened 15 years ago I have a hell of a lot of symathy for the parents of all children at the school. 

 

I remember getting a call from a friend who works in newspapers saying to get over to the school as something is happening in the news system reports (before it becomes public/radio/TV).  The feeling of helplessness as we stood and waited for news was horrible.  We waited about 2 -1/2 hours before being allowed to pick them up in a very controlled manner although we knew early on which classes were involved. There is a real sense of relief as well as guilt when you collect your kids and they are safe but others are not so lucky.

 

We knew many of the kids who were killed, live a few doors from the surviving although shot teacher, and realise how close ours came when my eldest who was P7 (12 Yrs old) at the time describes what Hamilton was wearing, what he did part way through the shootings by coming out an escape exit from the gym about 8-10m from his temporary classroom building, unloading 2 pistols, reloading and turning on them standing at a window and filling his Portakabin full of a full cartridge before returning to the gym to only later add more holes from a different direction before shooting himself. I think it must have been the only day that every chld in the class did what the teacher shouted at them by some miracle and get under their desks and stay there. My good mate was a traffic cop at the time and was 2nd police unit arriving on scene as had been on his way for a coffee with me when the shout went up. What he saw and had to deal with lives with him I know although we never discuss it.  All these feelings will be going through this community for years long after the news crews leave.  They were almost as hard to deal with as the event itself in the immediate aftermath.

 

We played eveything down and as a gun owner I wasn't part of the anti gun brigade.  My eldest was fine for years and it was only at Uni many years later did we start having any problems on the anniversay. Thankfully as an adult he is well rounded and flipant about the whole thing.  The other at 8 years old has always been fine as witnessed nothing.

 

To qualify my gun owning statement. I grew up round guns, was only ever target or clay orientated and was taught from day 1 about total gun respect. I was never even allowed to point toy guns at somebody. I had owned my fathers guns after paying large proofing and repair bills for him, to keep them in the family as handed down to him, and at one time would have been worth something.  I have subsequently got rid of them and no longer have a licence but the market died overnight and years later I never even got what I had spent repairing them. Why did I sell them? Too much red tape to go through to retain them basically and with increasing costs with limited use. Also being made to feel a bit of a social piriah even although I live in country location where shoots were part of the circle of life.  The gun lobby used popular press to force something through, and had todays laws been in place before Dunblane it would have still happened exactly the same, as it was all legally held remember. You could kill more driving like a nutter round a school playground in a car if you want to murder.


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This unspeakable atrocity has prompted me to watch "Bowling for Columbine" again-perhaps still the only US film to try to honestly confront and address the issues without patronising anyone with a definite answer. One nutter intent on killing can never be stopped and a gun will kill many more than a baseball bat, but mental health care can be improved to spot the warning signs and weapons that no-one would actually need except to fight a war, can be banned.

On a wider philosophical level, the "freedom " to bear arms ironically arose from the War of Liberation from the British; every Patriot needed guns to wage a guerrilla war against the Redcoats. That reason historically transmuted into a general "Don`t Tread On Me" attitude to central authority which is something Europeans cannot relate to-the idea of the Federal State as a potential malevolent and physical threat requiring a potential armed response has no equivalent elsewhere in the developed world, and it has to be said that the USA has seemed surprisingly uninterested in relating its own liberation to other poorer nations where citizens have taken up arms against repressive regimes.

The other background factors are more amorphous and elusive but the idea that you can solve your own perceived problems just by physically eliminating people seems to have more cultural purchase in the USA than in many other places.      

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Is this correct?

 

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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The news on the radio here today had a report speaking about firearm deaths in the good ol' US of A. It was an American, popular, but whose name escapes me at this moment.

 

He quoted the figure of 34 deaths per day.

 

If we average 4~5 people per household, imagine 6 of your neighbours houses being completely empty tomorrow.


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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NYC has just had it's first 24 hours EVER without a murder...


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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I agree with many of the sentiments on this thread and have left off commenting because I wanted to hear from many others first.

 

Let me say that both myself and my father were gun owners. Both range shooting, pistols and Shotguns, as we had several acres of woodland and we shot both Pigeons and Pheasants for the pot. Never for sport.

 

When something like this happens there is often a knee jerk reaction. Like the banning of legally held guns (as happened in the UK) apart from Shotguns. It got so bad in the UK during the 80's that our Olympic team went to the USA to practice. However all this did was remove legally held guns, pushing crime underground. The criminals still get guns but sport shooters can't. Several of the shootings were caused by legally held guns and for me, this was the issue. The rules on who could hold guns wasn't tight enough. People with issues were allowed guns. Ownership just needed to be tightened up significantly. Not all guns banned. After all, if a bus was driven at a group of pedestrians on purpose, killing 50 of them, would we ban buses?

 

That said. US gun control (there's not alot really is there!) needs to be tightened. God knows what I would do if I was a policeman in the States, thinking everyone I meet could be toting a glock! People should not be allowed to carry guns day to day. When you have armed people patroling schools, you know that gun ownership is waaaayyyy outta control.

 

I can't imagine what those parents, friends and families are going through, Or what the surviving kids feel right now. This should be the governments point of focus in the immediate aftermath.  But this should be a lesson in "Gun Control", ownership and how readily available they are moving forward.


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All the talk is unfortunately of limited use. Bottom line is you need to be honest, but concise with your kid and end by emphasizing the good people and measures in place to protect them. My son goes to a public school in Manhattan that always has had a few NYC Policer School Safety Officers in the lobby. Very friendly, positive, and non-threatening to the kids (the kids all love 'em), but man, if they don't know you and you can't provide ID and relevance for being there as an adult, the hand moves to the holster just in case and they wil cut you down...unless you storm the place with quasi-artillery, in which case no one's got a chance. Which gets to the point for me--one of degree. 

 

My son's 5-1/2 and last night I had to give him the basics of CT. He ended up sleeping in my bed due to being sufficiently freaked out, but seems to have processed it fine overnight. Happy to go to school and get on the bus this morning.

 

Second Amendment? I don't know. I'm not registered as a Democrat or Republican since I think they're both fundamentally and systemically corrupt institutions, so I'm a registered Independent and I usually end up voting for whichever idiot I think is less incompetent.

 

When I was a kid, all the men in my family (including me) were members of the NRA and it simply meant that we seasonally went hunting, with shotguns, for pheasant, partridge/grouse, woodcock, and duck in New Hampshire. We didn't bag insane amounts of birds and we ate them the day we shot them. Personally, I never went in for big game hunting where you wait around freezing your keyster off until you can drill a large animal with a scope and a small cannon since it seems far less challenging and sporting than trying to bag a bird that's in motion, regardless of how wide a choke you've set your shotgun's barrel. But since those days the NRA has, like all institutions taken over by inflexible fanatics, become a rather disgusting organization, too co-mingled with Republican politics. The issue seems to me not one of whether or not Americans have the right to have arms, which I think is clear, but simply to what degree. And the "discussion" over where to draw that line has become so perverted and irrational that it's a damn social quagmire. Like take Uncle Ted. I love the guy. I've spent hours of my life learning how to play most of his guitar parts. But in a video like this, unless we're going to start requiring WAYYYYYY more rigorous training and background checks, I can't go with him past 1:36 of this rant, and what magnitude of weapons are personally justifiable? Personally, I think the damn artillery that maniac in CT was able to procure is beyond the pale or any defensibility...

 

http://youtu.be/LCHtw6WbbnM

 

And here's an irony to further confuse the issue, or at least my feelings on the subject. Within the NYC limits it's legal to keep an unloaded rifle or shotgun for hunting, but you can only keep a handgun if you belong to an indoor shooting range. So when my grandfather died he left a Browning 9mm, Colt Python .357, Ruger .22 6-shooter, and a few other handguns, which we legally transferred to the custody of a friend in rural New Jersey to keep, in a locked box. Well guess what? His house was broken in to a few years later and among other things, they stole the damn box, so as far as I know some or all of those handguns were sold black market and/or used for crimes. You can't win.


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Its a little too late for the US but if you dont have the guns in the first place nobody can steal them  (not having a dig just an observation). I dont really think anybody neeeeeeeeeds a gun apart from the millitary and farmers.  If anyone can tell me why they need a millitary type gun I would be interested to hear plus  I have always thought just giving the nutters a number in all press reports might help reduce the  desire for fame a bit.

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