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E10 (10% Ethanol) Fuel - BEWARE of E15 PETROL!

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Guest surferphil

We get 15% ethanol we have had 5 for years without anyone really announcing it, now it goes up by 10%.

This will be very bad for my Elan since the fuel tank is a polymer as well as the fuel lines.

What I want to know is which fuel pump has the least.

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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

So, as there is no guidance from Lotus or any other source, what do we do other than keep on motoring until they fine a fuel aditive to counteract the alc problems?

Peter

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Guest surferphil

You are supposed to just let your car break down and scrap it. That way the government get a load of tax from us, remember the scrappage scheme? All about revenue, spending and tax.

They don't care about people who can't afford to buy a new car, or our old cars.

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I'm going to ask some questions at work (Shell) and see if I can find out some definitive answers for everyone. At the moment, we seem to have several camps of thought. No issue :thumbsup: , everything will melt blob%20fire.gif , or just wait to see what happens :coffee: .

I'll see what I can get out of the chemists and will let you know. (though I am not sure how willing a fuel company may be to say 'Oh yeah, our fuel will cause your car to fail')

I do know Liz's Honda CRV has an E10 suitable sticker inside the fuel filler cap.

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Guest surferphil

Is Australian petrol the same as we get here?

(May seem like a silly question but it's actually a really good and intelligent one, see)

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http://www.caltex.com/sg/products-and-services/techron-fuels/caltex-with-techron/

I use the 98 Caltex, it's readily available, both BP and Shell produce a similar high octane rating fuel, but I have found a benefit to the Caltex product. (and that pump is usually free)

My information on the ethanol products is that it can cause issues with submerged fuel pumps. But fewer issues than when we went to unleaded.

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I have recently become concerned about the Ethanol content in petrol because my petrol tank in the Renault Alpine is a polypropylene/plastic type. I understand that in the States a number of Ducati's have had the plastic petrol tanks distort/go out shape etc which they blame on the Ethanol content in petrol I understand PA6 is effected but certain other polyethylene are unaffected. A chap on the RAOC is looking into this at the moment so I'm avoiding petrol with any high Ethanol content.

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Guest surferphil

From Shell:

Thank you for your email.

Petrol is blended with up to 5% ethanol in order to respond to the

European Union and UK government's initiative to promote biofuels,

whose aim is to reduce CO2 emissions and enhance energy supply

security.

Both Shell FuelSave Regular Unleaded and Shell V-Power Unleaded

contain up to 5% ethanol as stipulated by the European fuel

specification EN228 and UK government legislation.

Most vehicles manufactured after 1991 are suitable for petrol with 5%

ethanol. For vehicles older than this or for those that have any

specific design features or modifications, we strongly recommend that

customers consult their vehicle manufacturer to determine whether

their vehicle is compatible with ethanol-containing fuels before

filling up.

Once again, thank you for contacting Shell U.K. and I do hope you

find this information useful.

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WARNING about "E15" gasoline.

There is a type of gasoline about to come on the market called "E15."

Under NO circumstances should you use it.

Watch this clip from video/news clip and see why.

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/

Edited by MrDangerUS

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Wow John that bit from Fox news is quite alarming. I know there has been plenty of talk on here about the threat of ethanol being put into fuel its about time people could say stop messing with the fuel at least give us a choice!

 

I would ask everyone who cares to share the fox news vid on their social media. More effective then starting a petition.

 

 

Buddsy 

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if the *Telegraph* link means that Ducatis suffer from rust in the conventional steel-tanks used ..we will see, as I fill up so far my bike with the ordinary 'petrol' from the classic stations -and mixed it up with amounts of the E85 from specialised stations as well.

 

And as said many times -I wish DermotO'Hare as a Chemical-scientist would give us some notes about the different physical & chemical effects of E5/E10 and continiously higher Ethanol concentrations in terms of 'acting als solvents/acting with humidity'  ..as I still think there is a difference in it if you work with pure alcohols of the best quality (I mean the 98% types of laboratories at least, with only 2% water and contaminations in) or if you mix this whole up with additional petrol as well.

 

As for the metioned 'we can't eat what we fire up' -John J:   to use only the corn is old technology today, as you have to do it in half-synthetic ways with usage of energy from sun & wind or tides  ..so use the whole plant and even use the CO2 from the atmosphere is the task to go in future ..but maybe you in the US are just to close related to your national crude oil production, and so far not interested in the future alternatives ?

Edited by Günter

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Guest surferphil

There isn't a real alternative, it's more about breaking the dependence on oil than finding anything that will be kinder to the environment. Corn takes a huge amount of energy to nurture and harvest, compared with the amount of energy it produces.

I can't see Ethonol being the replacement to petrol/Diesel.

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Yes, the Fox news said it all.

There was something which most of the people are missing, and is totally horrid!

 

Let's consider 10 gal tank, turbo engine and E15 / 90 octane petrol.

You have 1.5 gal of ethanol/petrol at the bottom, due to the phase separation, (E is heavier than gasoline).

This is your 90 octane mix, which goes trough the engine first (all pre 1989 cars with bottom sump). It is extremely corrosive.

After that short period of time,  your engine starts burning the "real" petrol which is only 86-87 octane!

MAJOR DETONATION !!!

For 1989 and later cars, which burn top phase first, the scenario is similar, but at the reverse order.

 

Also, read here why our fuel tanks are deteriorating so fast.

Ethanol in petrol turns this deadly mixture into an electrolyte!

 

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/EFI-Fuel-Tank-Mods.htm

 

Users of methanol/gasoline mix found an unsuspected cause of trouble in the gasoline tank, which traditionally has been made of "terne plate," a favorite roofing material of Victorian architects. It is steel sheet coated with 8% tin-lead, making it ideal for resisting rust from water in gas tanks. Methanol reacts with lead, slowly but surely, forming a flaky sludge that plugs filters in the fuel system. The easiest solution is to inspect and clean the filters every few months while using methanol fuel. The problem is rust! Fuel tanks rust from the inside-out and primary pump ingests rust flakes rendering it incapable of supplying enough fuel to support secondary pump demand. This, in turn, causes low System Pressure and fuel starvation at higher rpm,



US and CANADIAN BROTHERS and SISTERS,

 

There is a temporary hope on the horizon, (untill The Eco-Nazis will kill it, too!)

 

Ethanol free gas stations in your area:

 

http://pure-gas.org/

 

http://buyrealgas.com/

 

Enjoy till it is gone!!

Edited by MrDangerUS

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Do you not think that as soon as the car moves, any separated fluids will be mixed up? The inside of a fuel tank is not a peaceful place!

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How do stations prevent phase separation in their storage tanks? The stations I know of here that now sell this have never unearthed their tanks to install any sort of agitation to keep the compounds mixed.

Wouldn't it separate sitting there in the tank and cause an even greater problem when you pump it into your car? i.e. the mixture is even more biased toward ethanol %?

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@John & Phil:

 

..that's why I say you need to use the whole substance, not only the single corn on top of the plant !! Even more, not only weat & corn should be used for processing, there are more recyclable biological substrates as option

 

To use atmospheric CO2 would even be another step fortwart to this.

 

As for the 'shaker box' and fuel-tank quaracteristics question

-no fuel pump (no matter if earlyer or later '89) will use only one type of fluid for a longer period, as even if "separated" over a long time of no use ..the fuel-pumps in any case use the bottom part to drain fuel from of a tank -logic, right ! ;)

 

John, the problem of possible ' unwanted electrochemical process' is clear ..no discussion on that

-but you characterisation on 'ordinary petrol' with something of the mid 80octane, this speaks for your localy minded horizon ..there are different fuel types (qualities) around the wold, that's why at least the engineers have to work on so many applications of the same car for different markets

Edited by Günter

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Ok, so when the tank rusts etc replace with a stainless one and a modern e15 compatible fuel pump?

Or am I missing something

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Service Notes for Esprit and Esprit Turbo, 1988 Model Year Onwards, Section LF.1, page 3, under "Gasoline Containing Alcohol", says:

"Methanol-do not use gasolines containing Methanol (wood alcohol). Use of this type of alcohol can result in vehicle performance deterioration and damage to critical parts in the fuel system. Fuel system damage and vehicle performance problems, resulting from the use of gasolines containing methanol, may not be covered by the vehicle warranty"

 

Best example: inevitably deteriorating fuel tanks!  

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