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Tesla Burns the New York Times for their Tesla S Review


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Sounds like a ballache. Where are our hydrogen powered cars?

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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Wonder how they'll tax it? Fuel makes the govt £25bn a year at the mo, not sure how much they'll want to put on a bottle of Evian :lol:

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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Last I heard, the big issue regionally for BMW who's been developing their own Hydrogen/Fuel Cell vehicle and associated charging stations is that the Bridge & Tunnel Authority wouldn't let them take one of their test cars over the George Washington Bridge because it was technically classified as carrying explosives!

1983 "Investor's Special Edition" Turbo Esprit (#43/50) | 2012 Evora S

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CNN just did their own test of Tesla's Supercharger system driving from DC to Boston and had no problems. Broder's article is a nice example of what happens when an idiot drives the car.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/15/autos/tesla-model-s/
 

'86 Lotus Esprit Turbo

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Hydrogen is too late.  Splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen is not an efficient use of electricity.  Its better to skip this step, avoid the storage issues and stick with EVs.  The Tesla Roadster does 220 miles and charges in 3 hours, a few years later the Model S does 300 miles (with 7 seats) and charges in 30 min.  

 

Based on that by 2025 EVs will have >1000 miles range and charge in a few mins.  

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  • Gold FFM

Last I heard, the big issue regionally for BMW who's been developing their own Hydrogen/Fuel Cell vehicle and associated charging stations is that the Bridge & Tunnel Authority wouldn't let them take one of their test cars over the George Washington Bridge because it was technically classified as carrying explosives!

it's not only the 'explosion' factor that counts, it is 'storage temperature' vs. 'pressure requirement' vs. 'energy-concetration' vs. 'molecular-size of H2' (and therefore requirements for the whole fueling equippement and storage in car/ the network area in the towns)  ..  this means it is still not verry effective to handle, compared with the miles you actuall get out of it from those early cars Even if it is not directly and "innefectively" used for a combustion engine, so instead transfered to EV it is still not the best choice.

 

-if you for example would like to refer to this MP in a local German parliament,  who tried to promote the BMW 7series prototype with his demo run there to a conference -just count the miles the MP was doing [what he said he was doing..] and from where he came vs. what BMW itself said about the abilitys of the system  (..most think that was just a fake, or at least there was a refueling needed if you count it for real)

 

If you store (transport) "liquid energy" in the car for powering the engine (no matter if EV/fuelcell or combustion) ..it needs to be a liquidsubstance that is a relatively stable mixture under nearly atmospheric pressure and under the natural temperatures the rest of the car runs as well. 

 

That's why I would prefer (from the enginering point of view) any type of Methanol/ethanol/water or what ever 'magic-mixture' to mechanically/chemically (or with electricity) convert/divert my electrons from it to power the engine if it is a EV engine. As electric drive is effective from the view of energy transformation to the mechanical drive. Even knowing that it will be maybe a lot of mass of fuel that you carry for small outputs of power, so an effectifety problem there in the process  ..and that you often need to refill what ever is used to put in the car

-as long as it is a liquid that flows like ordinary petrol the time on the station will not be even those above mentioned 'short 30min' of the Teslas .. as the quality of an 'easy to use and less time required to refill the energy' makes what gives the benefit on the customer market. Just see motorbikes, even the best [petrol] motorbikes only runs for some hundrets of km with one tank of fuel, so the customer needs to refill it often -but the time to refill is in comparision very short with a 'liquid-type' of energy.

 

All the battery-systems in those EV cars who refill 'direct electricity' , those have at least the problem, that even if the stored energy runs out -the car is as heavy as it was on the start

..so the gradient of *power(energy-reserve within the drivetrain) to mass* of the whole vehicle turns notable to the bad side if you can say so..

 

If you concept a car that gets lighter mile by mile, in order to the energy used out of the energy storage, it just sounds so more practical  -and if you add the fact that with a refill of energy in a liquid type you can handle the daily life just as easy as prior in those petrol times the customer would for sure not have that much problems to accept the car.  

Other effect is with this, there is no computerised recharge-logic needed, nor is there any bad effect if you 'refill only 1/4 of storage capability at a time' or so, like it is in comparision with some battery systems.

 

To make it short, a Methanol fuelcell powertrain sounds is the one that a customer could handle ..right ?!

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Hydrogen is too late.  Splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen is not an efficient use of electricity.  Its better to skip this step, avoid the storage issues and stick with EVs.  The Tesla Roadster does 220 miles and charges in 3 hours, a few years later the Model S does 300 miles (with 7 seats) and charges in 30 min.  

 

Based on that by 2025 EVs will have >1000 miles range and charge in a few mins.  

 

Depends on your electric source, agreed it is rubbish with coal or gas, but those stations can be balanced to demand. It is a little more interesting with nuclear, where you run the reactor flat out, and match H2 production to surplus power. Same with renewables, quite handy when the wind is at 2am

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As much as I love Lotus I wouldn't be too confident in their ability to produce a niggle free nuclear Evora.  :laser:

Edited by Stirling_Villeneuve

Currently having an illicit affair with another marque, be back in the fold one day... B-)

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Who Killed the Electric Car.... interesting veiwing....

 

Interesting watch. Have not seen that before.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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with those plastic-polymer conception the customer still carries the plastics with his car, even if the Hydrogens used for the actual fuel-cell/energetic process is allready used out..?

So from the basis the same principles as with a battery, the only benefit is that the energy-package /densitiy 'per mile' vs. storage mass is higher compared with what you can put into a battery those days ..

 

Still, what I would prefer is  conception where all substances who are part of the energy conversion get out of the car as simple 'emission' like steam of water ..so without a tank full of used plastic-pellets to carry

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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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The USS Enterprise, the world's first nuclear powered aircraft carrier was powered by 8 nuclear reactors. Today's are powered by 2, indicating great gains in nuclear efficiency, and waste reduction.

I have been advocating nuclear powered buses and interstate trains for some time, there is a strong case for greater reliance on nuclear power.

Edited by Roger the Dodger

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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no roger, that's not 'nuclear efficiency' ..it's the one of the turbine/generator systems ;) 

 

..as those 'nuc powerd' vehicles run by the thermal effects of the Uranium to its surounding areas, not with the nuclear-radiation directly ..



so it's basically the same with energy-plants and industrial facilitys: the coal, or oil or wood used to heat up the water for the turbines is as efficient as it was in the stoneage -but the efficiency in the conversion rate of the turbine & generator types rises



in other words 1t Uranium still has the same specified MJoule energy content as it had in 1950, but the way (efficency/quality) you use it counts in the point how much of the energy you get for the actual process that you want to power up this Uranium

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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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"There have been countless improvements to both the fuel consumption and

the enrichment process since those early days, and nuclear plants
currently achieve extremely low fuel costs that reflect the small amount
of energy required for each unit of fuel"

 

From http://atomicinsights.com/2009/12/efficiency-improvements-and-cost-reduction-efforts-related-to-uranium-enrichment-cause-concern-for-some-nuclear-policy-experts.html

 

Technically you're correct, but it still means you can produce the same amount of power with less Uranium, and produce less waste.

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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'enrichement' from my point of view only means the quality of 'substrate'-type that is needed to handle the uranium practically, or in other words to separate it from the other radioactive substances in the nature prior to the creation of those sticks in the reactor ..this is different from decate to decate 

 

..but stil, the energy of the pure Uranium element in its most radioactive state (mean those Uxxx numbers..)  -this is stil a physical constant, right ?       

-so there is the only option to create more efficient generators, or totally change the way the Uranium is used.

 

Wasnt there still some scientific experiments with 'fusion' instead of separation in the Alps nowadays..  ?

 

 

**************

 

 

Just see it as it is -not long and we all will have a *Mr Fusion* kitchen-mixer on the rear deck of our Esprits..

 

I would like that, as I often use 'something out of the garbage can' to pay the fuel-bill for my Esprit   :D

Edited by Günter

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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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Just some toughts in the night (cant find as sleep --insomnia by the way?)

 

-------------------------

 

the strange thing is, why do even I know over here that GM developed this EV car !?  It was documented in our car mags in the late 90th, up to the mid 2000 years as I recall corectly ..so it's existence was not a secret ..at least not for us over here in Europe.

Same is for  heat-insulation windows and such stuff that is used as a joke in the naked-cannon movie scene 

-it just looks like the US 'civilisation' is in some ways not as informed as the rest of the world then ?

Maybe it really is for the influence and abilitys -or even interest- of the big players in the US (car) industry ..who knows

Or it's for political reason, or for the (still global existing) lobyism there around ?    Who does really trust into the government these days   ;)

 


Problem there in the early days over here was that those cheaper cars from smaller independed companys, for example some made in Swizzerland, Germany  or Norway -see one thing called 'Hotzenblitz'   ..in the time as those appeared to the customer marked, those were fitted with batteries you would need to be a pure 'enthusiast' type of car owner  .. just as it is said in some documentations, as well as by the actor there on the funeral scene in this video and by Mr. Hanks.

 

So those were not competitive for our highways and applications in Europe (Germany), more or less the marked is only for city use .. a type of use where those are a good fit by the way. 

The difference between European urban areas and US urban areas is of course, we have traditionally a spread and also often fully diversity oriented public-transport system in the concentrated urban areas, whereas in the US we sometimes laugh that it is so common to use a car for nearly anything, and that the roadsides in towns in some movies look as if there isn't a real type of pedestrain-way at all ..?  Something our US friends by the way could enlighten us Europeans (the once, like me who could so far never manage to visit the US for real)

 

 

***

I can say I have tested by last year so far, twice over my engineering-studies time, now several kinds of 'inovative' vehicles on a test session day. Name it pure-EV, Hybrids, Fuel-cell, 'efficency extended combustion ones' with LPG/CNG and such types. Ranging from the Audi E-tron A3 class prototype over the Mercedes fuell-cell cars you could actually see in this video there in one scene, to the MIA urban vehicle over to Nissan Leaf and to Toyota/Lexus ones, Citroen and so on.

There was also a group of 3Teslas on the first test session a year earlier, but I could not manage to get one of those in my hands for a run on the course -or to get a seat as passenger in one of those ...as the demand to test one of the most famous EV of todays time was to extended from the crowd  ..and sadly two of the three Tesla Roadsters there where allways *out of order* for technical problems, as the Tesla promoter wrote on the windscreen and tried to tell us steady  :(

 

First year it was the 'Michelin Challenge Bibendum' .. the other year it was a engineering sympossium held by an engineering group in Berlin.

 

(refer to my Album in FB for interest, called *Berufsrisiko*)

 

 

The power on acceleration make EV and Hybrids a lot of fun, but what I don't like is the limitations given there with the pure EV cars -that you have to be cautious on the power output for the limited range vs. charge time, and that the computer limits it up for urban speeds for example.

So appart from Nissan Leaf and this kind of more expensive fully developed EV & Hybrid cars, those light & compact pure EV from smaller manufacturers are more or less just like a bigger bicycle with a cabin, seen from usable range in town (if you compare it with the time required for charging if you really need to use them -vs.-  the time you have to invest for a combination of the other allready existing transport options I have)

-or to say it in other words, those stay in competition for example with the mix of a bicycle and the also available urban transport over here. 

That's why I personally use so far my own bicycle, my  motorbike or the conventional car or the public-transport ticket that we get there mandatory as students in Berlin as long as those are still available.

 

The two Lotus, and the motorbike are more or less a 'hobby' ..even saying that the motorbike is more a 'usefull extension' to the bicycle, as I'm not a traditional hardcore motorbike fan *[see humorous term 'daily bitch' in my profile list refering to the motorbike].

.the Ford-Estate powered with vegetable oil is usefull for our demands on 'big package' grocery transports (just again tomorrow I need to go there for a 3 monthly milk sale out in a discount marked, with additional sale out of other stuff we need -so the transport capacity is required .. most of the other time the cars are parked up on private ground or in front of my flat and don't cause serious emissions by the way .. so as we even have our own ground full of trees I feel stil green enough there

Edited by Günter

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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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The Tesla Roadster does 220 miles and charges in 3 hours, a few years later the Model S does 300 miles (with 7 seats) and charges in 30 min.  

 

Based on that by 2025 EVs will have >1000 miles range and charge in a few mins.  

 

We're seriously looking at the S when I can eventually get to see one in their Zurich shop. There are very few trips where I am doing more than 250-300 miles in a day and as Alan says with a 30 min recharge on a supercharger then it's really not an issue, though certainly you need to plan more than you do with petrol, put it on a charger and have a coffee.  The issue at the moment is that the charge stations are slow and mostly in city centres because previous electric cars have been city cars.  I think that's going to change and in the meantime I'll probably use high speed trains more (which are more comfortable).  We're doing about 40-50 miles most days on country roads and can park it in a garage with electricity and can mostly charge overnight.

 

The biggest thing that influenced our thinking is when you sit down and work out cost of ownership.  With seriously reduced servicing, 'fuel' at a fraction of the cost of petrol and no road tax (that's what subsidies are here) I reckon I'd be looking at CHF4000 a year less than a similar sized passenger car.  That's like running a mid sized 3 series for the price of a top range 5.  The big unknown is depreciation.

 

Our electricity is from hydro / solar generation so we're not pushing CO2 from one method to another.

 

I had an interesting conversation with the head of one of Europe's big electricity companies over dinner a few years ago.  The big issue with currrent infrastructure is that there's no real storage capacity (so if electricity is not used it's wasted).  Furthermore, apart from gas and I guess hydro it isn't possible to turn on and off production (it takes over 24 hours to get a coal powerstation up to temperature for example) so the network effectively has to run full(ish) capacity all the time. A lot of electric cars could be used as capacity with smart networks, feeding power back to the network to meet peaks in demand.  This would cut CO2 production through the ability to run at lower capacity much quicker than new power stations.

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I don't know how you would manage an electric car here. I haven't seen the infrastructure anywhere to support them.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators.

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