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the ultimate engine swap...1300cc Rotary Engine


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does anyone think about the 1300cc Rotary Engine (Mazda) that's found in both RX7 and RX8?

the engine is very very compact in size (and weight very little)

creating a very low inertia (seating very low on the chasis comparing to conventional combustion engine)

what's the possibility on this? (never heard of anyone to bring this up)

the length of the Esprit is very similar to the RX7 car.

and the RX7 car / (13B-MSP Renesis ) RX8 car is famous for cornering (in some tracks, it can outrun the BMW M3 because of faster cornering speed)

if power is not enough, adding a turbo or twin turbo will solve this problem

however, the engine runs very high rpm (9000), and sucks alot of fuel...(equal to a 4000cc V8)

but the weight saving is alot

please give comments.

NOTE: 13B-MSP RENESIS

Mazda RENESIS prototype in the Mazda MuseumThe RENESISwas an evolution of the 13B and first appeared (in production) in the 2004 Mazda RX-8. The Renesis 13B is very different from any other Wankel for two reasons: First, the exhaust ports are no longer located on the rotor housing (the only other rotary ever to do this was the 10A), and the rotors are shaped differently. The MSP designation thus stands for multi-sideport. The rotors have grooves cut along the sides to prevent timing overlap. With a 13B engine, certain companies such as CTS Racing made super lightweight racing rotors with similar features. The naturally aspirated RENESIS produces 232hp @ 8500 RPM with a 9000 RPM redline (Mazda originally reported 250hp, but dyno tests have proven otherwise - compare this to 255hp (190 kW) for the twin turbocharged 13B in the Mazda RX-7.

The RENESIS engine won International Engine of the Year and Best New Engine awards 2003. It also holds the "2.5 to 3 liter" size award for 2003 and 2004, where it is considered a 2.60 L engine. Finally, it was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 2004 and 2005.

Weight of the engine:

http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/rotorwgt.htm

Weight Comparison to other engines:

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

Edited by esprithk
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Interesting - heard a lot of good and bad things about the rotary/wankel engine.

What bothers me is the fac that 99% of all major manufacturers dont use it....if they're so much better why not ?

Principal is excellent, low parts count, smaller # of moving parts and a linear motion, not the up and down of a piston engine. Often wanted to buy and OLD RX7 wreak to strip just to look at the engine but tbh I've never really got into them, infact I was looking at a newer RX7 when I had the cash to buy a nice car (got the Esprit though dinut I). The horror stories I have heard are as follows (not necessarily true, anyone knows about rotories I'd love to know the real deal) :

* Consumes oil like a bugga

* Lower capacity can drink fuel with the best of them

* Tips (equivalent to piston rings, ends of the rotor see anim below) are notorious for failing under high performance figures

* Seem to need rebuilding a lot

Considering Mazda have it in the RX8 now I would have thought a lot of the RX7 bugs have gone, it does seem like a good idea.

wankel.gif

facebook = jon.himself@hotmail.co.uk

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Hi, Jonathan

I think, in maintainence issues, there are already many professionals out there to know enough how to maintain and work on the rotary engine(already 30years+ in the consumer market?)

the only bad thing I have heard about the Rotary engine is emission problem

once the engine is worn out, it just won't pass the emission test anymore. (thus the car will be written off)

Even an extensive engine rebuild will not reverse this (must change engine if you want to keep the registration)

but if the engine is used for tracks, it won't matter much.

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WHY?!

I'm sorry but that has to be my first question?

Why bother...

For 230-250 bhp when any existing turbocharged Esprit engine will deliver that with little or no modification whastoever. Any chargecooled engine will already be putting out MORE than that!

So why go to all the effort and lengths of trying to fit it into the car, mount it, mate a egarbox to it and make it all fit so the drive shafts etc are all in the right place... when there is a straight drop in which will be more powerful!

If it was going to put out 400+bhp and blow everything off the face of the planet I would understand!

I think I must be seriously missing something?! :lol:

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked him to forgive me."

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Brilliant engines and have to admire Mazda for persevering when the others including majors like Mercedes and GM gave up. Unfortunate how, after Mazda won Le Mans in 92(?) rotaries were promptly banned. If they hadn't been banned they'd be more developed than they are. Who'd have thought diesels could ever be competitive?

Rotaries are still popular in oz in some categories and capable of obscene power. Quite a few 20B triple rotors modified and fitted to various vehicles here too. They do have an issue with reliability and can sound good (turbos) or terrible like a 2 stroke (NA peripheral ports).

DanR

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Hi Evil_Dr_Fish

I just want to see if "saving few hundred KG" in weight (from the engine compartment) will do what kind of effects to the Esprit (handling + performance)

yes, the data shows only 2XXHP, but look at the Lotus Elise, it also only runs approx the same power, and the bloody thing is quick as a bullet...

additional note:

what will happen if we put the 13B Renesis engine into a Lotus Elise....(how much will the Elise weight?)

that's the magic number :lol:

They do have an issue with reliability and can sound good (turbos) or terrible like a 2 stroke (NA peripheral ports).

I have never driven one (but considering to own a RX8 just for the heck of it)

but I heard from car owners that the engine + turbo sounds like "jet engine" noise...haha :D

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The thing with the rx7 engines is rebuild issues you will be looking at a rebuild at about every 30k miles. However I believe this has improved with the RX8 versions.

I also think that it is fairly easy to upgrade to high power levels, by adding extra rotors bigger turbos etc.

Have a look at reworx website shouldnt be too hard to find I think they have just built the first sub 10sec 1/4 mile rx7 in the UK.

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Don't get me wrong, I like the rexxies... I just didnt see the point in putting a 2xxbhp engine in a car that already has an engine producing 2xxbhp!!

Weight saving - ok THAT I understand :lol: It will obviously, move the centre of gravity towards the front of the car.

Sticking one in an Elise which is generally a 1xxbhp car - THAT I understand too :D

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked him to forgive me."

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I have heard an RX8 needs oil on a weekly basis and drinks fuel.

As far as racing, comparing different engine types is difficult, as rules are made to try to cater for them on a level playing field. I heard the LeMans rules will be changed since Audi won last time out, reducing the capacity of diesel engines. Perhaps it could be said the rotary that won Le Mans was too large a capacity to be a fair race. I wonder how much fuel it used compared to other cars in the race.

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I dont think you get the Esprit any better with lowering the center of gravity (CG) with the engine only.There is other issues on the Esprit that you will get more for your the money.

If its the CG you want to lower get a adjustable suspension and turn it down.The suspension A arms located so if you get it down 3-5cm you will still have very good suspension geometry.There is not many car that can compete with the Esprits suspension geometry even today.

I think you barly get the CG down more than 5mm if you only change to the RX engine.

But if its for the sound and love and other things I understand you.

I would like to have a hige reving twin turbo in mine......

WHY?!

I'm sorry but that has to be my first question?

Why bother...

For 230-250 bhp when any existing turbocharged Esprit engine will deliver that with little or no modification whastoever. Any chargecooled engine will already be putting out MORE than that!

So why go to all the effort and lengths of trying to fit it into the car, mount it, mate a egarbox to it and make it all fit so the drive shafts etc are all in the right place... when there is a straight drop in which will be more powerful!

If it was going to put out 400+bhp and blow everything off the face of the planet I would understand!

I think I must be seriously missing something?! :blink:

I totaly agree.

Why is every Esprit owner that wants to modify so shy/modest????

If you look in to modifyed japs etc nobody even look twise if dont have 500bhp+++

even that is in a car for everyday use.

Why cant someone on this forum come with something that gona blow my mine?

400bhp is realy nothing but the problem with more on a 4 pot is the cost.

When I see what they do with japs cars.I`m realy impresed how much money they use.

Why cant someone build a torsenstiff Esprit with 1000bhp+ V8 ?

It have all the rest pretty much.

Here are a tread from the Lexus V8 forum this gay dynoed 960bhp.

And this is what I call a ultimat engine swap..................................

http://lextreme.com///forums/showthread.ph...p;highlight=960

http://people.su.se/~jowi3244/misc/maajola_gtr_dyno.avi

Edited by rydning

89 Lotus Esprit Turbo S

Very fast road and trackday car.

GT3076R+ a lot of other modifications.

http://lotusespritwo...inZzdningz.html

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The four rotor engine goes from idle to high revs up like an electric motor and sounds awesome on the track. (Wish I understood Japanese.)

:blink:

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence." - George Washington

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Why cant someone build a torsenstiff Esprit with 1000bhp+ V8 ?

It have all the rest pretty much.

hmmm...if you really want 1000HP+ (target), you may also consider the Toyota Supra's Twin Turbo VVT V6.

they can reach this target quite easily.

this V6 is one of the best built V6 today :blink:

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The horror stories I have heard are as follows (not necessarily true, anyone knows about rotories I'd love to know the real deal) :

* Consumes oil like a bugga

* Lower capacity can drink fuel with the best of them

* Tips (equivalent to piston rings, ends of the rotor see anim below) are notorious for failing under high performance figures

* Seem to need rebuilding a lot

Considering Mazda have it in the RX8 now I would have thought a lot of the RX7 bugs have gone, it does seem like a good idea.

Rotaries consume oil as a matter of course. The combustion process is somewhere between 2- and 4-cycle engines. It actually needs to burn oil for seal lubrication and production engines have an oil metering injection system. Many competitors remove it in favor of 2-stroke oil in the fuel. Fuel consumption and emissions have always been the rotary's limitation. That said, the RENESIS is the best yet in those categories though still falling short compared to pistons. Where rotaries have always excelled is in power from given displacement. FWIW, Mazda has rotary mules running around Japan on hydrogen. Rotaries are too much a part of Mazda's heritage not to keep developing them.

Normally aspirated rotaries are quite reliable, often in to 6-digit mileage. Forced induction can drastically shorten engine life as the thin, straight apex seals are highly susceptible to detonation. Probably the majority of TT engine replacements were from power greed in trying to up the boost without good engine mgt. tuning or from overheating which can fry a couple of o-rings in the housings, end result being similar to losing a head gasket.

I wouldn't see a reason to go less than a 3-rotor if going into an Esprit. Getting 350-400 hp from a NA, well ported 20B is no sweat, 450-600 hp in turbo form, and a 3-rotor has gobs of torque. I think there may be at least a couple of 2-rotor Europas out there, ditto and then some for Seven variants.

I don't have a huge problem with people modifying their cars. Much of the joy of a Lotus is as a racecar for the road which encourages individuality in looking for the next performance tweak.

I'm also one who thinks that the sound of a racing 3- or 4-rotor is positively wicked, but I may be biased. :blink:

Cheers!

Eric

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hmmm...if you really want 1000HP+ (target), you may also consider the Toyota Supra's Twin Turbo VVT V6.

they can reach this target quite easily.

this V6 is one of the best built V6 today :blink:

Exreme Supra tuner put in the Lexus V8 because its a stronger and ligher (-80kg) unit.And get 25%more power and torque.

And the supra we have here have a inline 6 with a heavy cast iron block.What county use the V6?

89 Lotus Esprit Turbo S

Very fast road and trackday car.

GT3076R+ a lot of other modifications.

http://lotusespritwo...inZzdningz.html

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There is a very high spec steel triple rotor on Ebay US currently...

OT - Personally I'm going to go for either a 720bhp or 650bhp NASCAR 358.. but rotors are cute - the Mazda Le Man quad rotor cars were very extreme but they had no advantages over a V8 except how fast they could rev and rotors always drink gas when you tune them up. Heat build up always a big factor - hence they work better for strip than circuit.

Edited by M Blur

It's alive.. alive!!!..

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