Esprit Market Watch, for discussion and to help those looking to buy

[GTK]

Yeah the looks don't matter. The Ferrari has Cache, build quality and proper owner support. It's cache alone renders the looks largely irrelevant, they just happen to tend to be easy on the eye anyway. And I mean that in the literal sense, they're not offensive looking. The Esprit takes no prisoners looks wise.

The journos in the mid/late '70's and early '80's all told the same story about the Esprit: "quality issues, unrefined, but the best drivers car in it's class". So it's a pity that whereas Lotus built motoring genius, out of necessity they built compromise into the car in almost equal measure.

I'm convinced though that all the car needs now is some good PR to get it over the value tipping point. The majority of the remaining G-cars are being cared for properly and any of the ones that have had proper attention lavished on them probably have a lot of the build issues ironed out. 

[Trevsked]

Jonny,

Not sure handsome would be my description but yes the 308 is pretty. Still think the G cars are dramatic and theatrical.

Mark,

Yes loved my Esprit and it's just like my old car and made me go straight to EBay and buy a copy of that mag to read the article. Hope there are some good pics in there. Currently saving for another G car.

Trevor.

[Mark Blanchard]

...maybe soon when the interest rates goes back up. 

If you ask me, I'd like interest rates to go up to 15% like 1990.  It would stop this classic car bubble nonsense and I'd get some money back on my savings.  Though I maybe a lone voice...

And I doubt Esprit prices would be affected by it that much.

[Loose Cannon]

Turbo Esprit prices carry on more or less flat at £10-15,000, while the competition; the Ferrari 308 GTB prices hit £175,000.  I still don't get it . . .

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C636373

See, "Vetroresina" sounds sexier than "GRP" . Bella bella, molto bene. Bollocks.

[Trevsked]

I doubt we will see interest rates go up by much as this would lead to huge financial hardship for those borrowing whether it be personal or business. I too miss the 80's, a great time for savers but this was also a time that car prices were going through the roof as they are now so there doesn't appear to be a relationship between high or low interest rate and the price of classics.

Trevor.

Yeah the looks don't matter. The Ferrari has Cache, build quality and proper owner support. It's cache alone renders the looks largely irrelevant, they just happen to tend to be easy on the eye anyway. And I mean that in the literal sense, they're not offensive looking. The Esprit takes no prisoners looks wise.

The journos in the mid/late '70's and early '80's all told the same story about the Esprit: "quality issues, unrefined, but the best drivers car in it's class". So it's a pity that whereas Lotus built motoring genius, out of necessity they built compromise into the car in almost equal measure.

I'm convinced though that all the car needs now is some good PR to get it over the value tipping point. The majority of the remaining G-cars are being cared for properly and any of the ones that have had proper attention lavished on them probably have a lot of the build issues ironed out.

Good post.

Trevor.

[Andyww]

That cover reminds me of the inside of my garage.

[Mark Blanchard]

I too miss the 80's, a great time for savers but this was also a time that car prices were going through the roof as they are now so there doesn't appear to be a relationship between high or low interest rate and the price of classics.

Trevor.

The difference is now people are borrowing to invest in cars, as money is cheap.

See, "Vetroresina" sounds sexier than "GRP"   . Bella bella, molto bene. Bollocks.

 

I agree, what a load of bollocks.

Here's another ad for a 308 GTB.  The vendor talks about the patina of the paint work.  It needs a respray and he wants £150,000!

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C637534

[Trevsked]

Going back to Marks post about being able to buy a 308 10 years ago for £16k, it strikes me that at that time you could of bought a G Turbo for £5k and a Glass 308 for £45k. Percentage wise they have all increased 300% so why think the Esprit should increase more than the rest?

Trevor.

[Mark Blanchard]

Because 308 GTBs have increased by more than 300%, they're not £45K any longer.

[Trevsked]

Where? What was a £16k 308 10 years ago is £50k now.

Trevor.

[Mark Blanchard]

Prices ranged from £16k to £24k tops about 10 years ago.  348's were more.  I can show you plenty of ads it you want.  They cheapest 308s are now £50k up to £175,000.

[Andyww]

Its interesting that if you compare the 308 and the G Turbo of the same vintage under the skin you will find (despite what the journalists said):

 

The 308 has the same wire-driven window mechanism as the Elan which is slow and usually breaks

The Lotus has a modern cantilever system

The 308 has the same rear handbrake mechanism as the Elan which doesnt work

The Lotus has handbrake on the rear pads as all modern cars do

The 308 has a dreadful heater A/C system which never works properly

The heater and A/C in the Esprit is fantastic and if anything over-designed

The 308 rusts.

Lotus doesnt rust

The 308 (especially the GTS) has a chassis with poor rigidity.

The Lotus has the strong backbone chassis

The 308 has a fuse box which melts and is far worse than anything Lucas produced (which is saying somehting!)

The workshop manual for the 308 is practically useless

The Lotus is very well documented.

Ferrari were not able to get carbs to pass US emission tests so resorted to a de-tuned CIS setup

Lotus managed to comply with emissions still using carbs with pretty much no power reduction.

Ferrari used hardly any sound deadening material.

the Lotus is quite quiet and refined by comparison.

 

Ferrari did rectify all the above on the 328 but that came later

[GTK]

Andy that's so interesting.

You and by association we too, have a unique opportunity here. A nicely crafted proposal to Car magazine could see them do a timely, and I should say impartial, revisiting of the two cars. An emphasis on why their respective markets are so disparate. Your list above is the kind of fodder any good journo would eat up (provided it can be substantiated, no offence intended)

While I'm at it i think it's scandalous that while there are all sorts of lesser cars on both Petrolicious and Jay Leno's Garage, neither feature a G car or Stevens for that matter. We should get pro active, nominate a suitable owner and car in the states and get it rectified!

[Andyww]

I could get onto them. It would not be a valid comparison using both my cars because I have a 328 from 1989. I know plenty of 308 owners though.

The comparison only works in Lotus favour if cars from the same year (1982) are used. The 328 as I mentioned rectified all the stock 308 faults and the result is that the 328 is a design masterpiece and probably one of the best cars Ferrari ever made. It still has the "bendy" chassis though (in GTS form at least) and is less refined than the Esprit and doesnt match the Esprit roadholding.

The upshot though is when the Essex Turbo came out it was way ahead of the Ferrari offering of the time. 

I will need to wait until my Esprit comes back from respray though before contacting them.

[GTK]

Brilliant. But it's important you are interviewed. You obviously know the Ferrari well and have a unique perspective. The fact that you have an Esprit and the "rectified" Ferrari, drives the point home.

[Mark Blanchard]

Here's the fibre glass Ferrari before and after:

 

[The Pits]

By thunder that 308 does look good in yellow. Looks are what matters most with classic cars and anything that looks that good should be worth a few quid.

They were both hero cars of mine back in the day so I don't want to rubbish the 308 despite the faintly ridiculous prices. I'd happily have both in the garage with sufficient means but having to chose meant the Esprit was always going to come first. Just to gauge the state of the bubble, the last one popped when a 328 made £197k. Surely we're at that point now?

[swindon_alan]

I doubt we will see interest rates go up by much as this would lead to huge financial hardship for those borrowing whether it be personal or business. I too miss the 80's, a great time for savers but this was also a time that car prices were going through the roof as they are now so there doesn't appear to be a relationship between high or low interest rate and the price of classics.

Trevor

It's not just personal and business debt though. The main driver here is government borrowing. They are scared witless of putting interest rates back up as the cost of interest payments on gilts etc. will go through the roof. The National Debts of most of the developed countries is truly staggering and a huge amount of tax revenues goes into servicing them. No way do they want them increased any time soon by higher interest rates.

[Chillidoggy]

The 308 is the best looking Ferrari ever made. I know this because Trevor said so, and he knows what he's talking about.

[Jacques]

Sorry, I like the 308 on the outside. Not so much on the inside.

But I prefer the 328 as to me, it's bettler looking.

In reality, I like the 288GTO as the best version of the shape.

I like the Testarossa on the outside too, apart from the silly single mirror and the strange front spoiler.

On that, I prefer the later 512TR. So a mix of the two would be fine And an Esprit interrior, which is so much nicer.

Overall, I prefer the Stevens Esprits. Most of all, the purest shape in the SE model.

Much nicer than any of the Farraris of many years, incl. 208, 308, 328, 288gto, 348, 355, (really boring looking), 360, 430, 550,  etc. The 360 is so toyota-like inside. Just discussing this with a friend last night.

In fact I prefer the 275gtb look-wise, if it would have to be an older Ferrari. Or the F40 Nicest Ferrari ever made.

The brand is the best known on the planet, more so than Coca-cola.

With so few cars actually driving, and a reputation for mechanics alling apart (despite that not being true), I see the Lotus cars as the insiders choice, knowing what Jewels they are. And the countless ferrari's, lamborghini's and porsche's as the choice per se for someone who want to have a status symbol.

That is why they will be more expensive.

The Lotus car is the car for connesieurs and being a drivers car.

Thank God, they are not too expensive.

Cheers,

Jacques.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Chip in with my two penny worth ....

So all classic cars are overpriced or are they ?

Is art overpriced or is something that is art and that you can drive overpriced ? 

Designed using pencil and paper and from a design team heads and influences, NOT a computer so surely qualifies as art ?

When something relatively exclusive, rare, can be bought for less than the price of an Escort Mexico, I think Lotuses are the bargain of the century and perhaps the best kept secret

Lotus Esprits .....yes, tempermental, perhaps unreliable if not maintained correctly but what other car can you buy which you can increase the already good performance relatively easily ?

Fit a 400/450 "chip" if you have the desire to do so, upgrade the gearbox, the car also has the benifit of a corrosion free shell, ( the envy of Classic Ferrari or Porsche owners !) and some exclusivity since their not made any more, and when made were produced in only limited numbers.

My V8 still turns heads, drives nice, has steering like no other car Ive driven and when its not playing up....... goes like stink. Only car I have owned where someone has knocked on the door and asked if I wanted to sell ( twice)

If cars that want work are on sale at dealers for £28K what price is a well sorted example really worth ?

Spoke to a dealer/specialist in Devon earlier this week ... Sold @ £34K for a really nice 97 V8 last year.....He reckons they are increasing circ £4K per year or more ..........there you go !!

[DJW]

Here's the fibre glass Ferrari before and after:

 

Out of interest what year was the first Ad from ?

[Trevsked]

And also was that the most expensive one available on the market? The £175k car is top money currently and only comparable with a top money car ten years ago for a fair comparison. I'd like the date of that ad too.

Trevor.

[The Pits]

Ferrari really should have brought back that torpedo launcher scoop for the 488.

[Andyww]

Indeed. The vane in the middle of the oddly-shaped air scoop looks shoddy close-up as its a bolted-on part and not at one with the rest of the body. On the demonstrator cars the vane is carbon-fibre which is even worse. In fact the 488 is a pretty unimpressive car close up. The engine bay detailing is not very good, parts of the pipework are covered in cooking foil. The Evora is better.