Scottish Independence

[softlips]

^^^ I agree this has opened up many divisions in the population over the border which will take years to heal whatever the result.

[makkyh]

As someone who has no Scottish ancestry but very keen on the Union I have read this thread with interest. 

 

I do as a member of the United Kingdom feel disenfranchised with the process which I feel cannot be right.

 

I would also observe that the argument on here, and I appreciate it is 'NO' biased, seems to have far more science than sentiment behind it. From an objective view point, the Oil appears to be an old and reliable sore which is the hook to hang Mr Salmonds mischief making.

[red vtec]

I'm quite happy to see Scotland go if that's what they vote, but if they go they cut all ties and no ladder back to us if it all goes wrong. Salmond seems to want to cherry pick the good bits only.

I've only followed bits of it but with the currency I understand they can use sterling, they could use bananas if they want but if the Bank of England won't back it, then it's only in name.

I know for a fact that they have already started moving our subs back to England with a new base on the cards.

If they do go does anyone know how it works with who takes charge of them? Does Salmond become PM/president? Or do they have to vote on this?

[iainskea]

Too much of 'they' and 'us' used around here. I sometimes feel I'm standing in an English Pub.

[Kimbers]

Hahaha,  and what is the forum but a group of friends talking about things that interest them It's what makes us a community Iain.

 

As for them and us, Like I have stressed, My Granny was 100% Welsh, My Grandad Half Irish, my wife is half Scottish (and my kids are confused). I am proud of mine and my wife's Celtic heritage and have recently gone with a large Celtic Cross tattoo on my shoulder and down my arm.

 

BUT, I don't want to see Scotland go independent because I consider it an integral part of the UK. It's not "them and us" because "Them" is my wife, my kids and to a certain degree myself. 

[softlips]

We have two likely scenarios now,

1) The Nos win and the Yes campaigners moan forevermore how good it could have been.

2) The Yes vote wins and they complain how good it would have been if the UK government had split things more fairly.

Either way sadly, I don't think we'll be hearing the last of Alex Salmond!

[hedgerley]

Its your round then Kimbers....

 

I still don't get the independence that Salmond is pitching for. I've read his White Paper which was supposed to answer all the questions but it doesn't, not by a long way. A few examples and bear in mind Scotland would be a foreign country - 

 

- Keep the pound in a currency union, which means

• The Bank of England to remain lender of last resort (which btw rules out EU membership as London a foreign country. But Alex says no, the entire EU legal establishment is wrong)
• rUK would have to bale Scotland out if the Scottish economy tanked
• Westminster would continue to dictate monetary, fiscal and borrowing policy for Scotland and would no doubt worry about the 95% of the population that is rUK, not the 5% in a foreign country
• Protections for pensions, banking etc remain in place, underwritten by the Bank of England (rUK taxpayer)

- In the medium term welfare payments and other social fund obligations would continue to be paid by Westminster as now. And he says rUK must contribute to the costs of the new systems Scotland needs once all the population records have been transferred.

 

And a bunch of other things that rUK will continue to fund (EU rebate for example) Basically, the rUK taxpayers to underwrite his ambition, with none of the downsides. And he has the gall to say that rUK have no say in the independence debate. 

 

He says all this will give Scotland the economic levers it needs to do better on its own. Derrr.

 

- Keep the Queen

- Continue to build rUK DoD warships (but you are a foreign country Alex)

- Remain part of the EU under current UK terms (but you are foreign country Alex)

- Remain part of NATO under current UK terms but ditch Trident. Sorry Alex NATO is a nuclear alliance

- Have an open border policy considerably more relaxed than current or post independence rUK conditions.

- And then say there will be no border controls between rUK and Scotland. Given the current geo-political climate there is no way immigrants, terrorists or otherwise, will be allowed to arrive in rUK via the back door. Westminster will insist on some kind of control.

 

The list of nonsense goes on. The vast majority of the conditions proposed in the White Paper for an independent Scotland are simply NOT in Salmond's gift to give They will rely on years of negotiation with national and international organisations and even then he won't get everything what he wants. In the interim Scotland will be in limbo, run out of cash, cut public spending, raise taxes and most big businesses will do a runner (banks would be forced out anyway under EU legislation - they have to be domiciled where the bulk of their business is)

 

And this will deliver a fairer Scotland? 

 

As to his own position Salmond is currently First Minister and he will remain so until the 2016 election in Scotland. The Scottish people will then vote for their own Government and Prime Minister, which may or may not be SNP led. After all, if independence is achieved why do we need the SNP - that's why they exist. I guess the upside is we may get rid of Salmond for good as what is the point of him post independence.

 

This will also mean the the Scottish MPs at Westminster will have to trek back to Edinburgh. And given they are all Labour bar one, rUK will forever be Tory-led as Labour has relied on its Scottish MPs to prop it up for years.

 

Vote with your head and its a big fat NO. Vote with your (Brave) heart and it's a Yes, we'll muddle through....

[Chillidoggy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11070773/Alex-Salmonds-currency-plan-B-incompatible-with-EU.html

 

Interesting.

[Advantage]

The Queen and Prince Philip were in Glasgow where they bumped into Alex Salmond

 

HMQ: How nice to see you Mr Salmond.

 

AS: Nice to see you Ma’am. Now, what are we going to call Scotland when we win Independence..? How about calling it a Kingdom, and then I’ll be a King?

 

HMQ glances at Philip: No, we don’t like that.

 

AS: How about an Empire, and I'll be Emperor?

 

HMQ: No.

 

AS: Alright, so how about calling it a Principality, and then I’ll be a Prince?

 

Philip: No Mr Salmond, I suggest we call it a Country and you can carry on as you are.

[arbell9]

Goldman Sachs don't seem to chuffed on the idea of independence

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11072312/Scottish-Yes-vote-could-cause-eurozone-style-currency-crisis-Goldman-Sachs-warns.html

[Kimbers]

Hahaha Advantage, brilliant!

[mdw]

I used to think no, then when it all started I was indifferent and now the more I read and think about it the more  happy I am to say bye bye.  Sadly I think its going to be close and there will be a lot of agro which ever  way it goes.  

[iainskea]

I'll buy the next round, although not sure what currency I'll use

[iainskea]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11070773/Alex-Salmonds-currency-plan-B-incompatible-with-EU.html

Interesting.

"Former" commissioner...

[Al]

Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anything really on this Forum topic but I am actually going to be in Englandshire all that week on a Course with 3 other Jock colleagues.  (We all have proxy votes to vote No with btw) 

 

What is the Course?  An Explosives handling Course!!  (in a quarry not far from Salisbury)

 

Now where is Houses of Parliament again?  Guy Fawkes II The movie!!

[Kimbers]

Awww closer to me and we could go out!

 

Infact, lets sort that some time! We can discuss Celtic things and eat and drink far too much!

[Advantage]

Bloody foreigners coming over here stealing our jobs...

[Mysterae]

Bloody foreigners coming over here stealing our jobs...

 

And your women

[Advantage]

You can keep them.

[red vtec]

I'm now being told that as an Englishman, that if Scotland goes it will affect me, if that's the case why are we not bloody well consulted on it!!!

 

My view is if they go they go, if they stay they stay and not with any of this divulged power.

[sailorbob]

My view is if they go they go, if they stay they stay and not with any of this divulged power.

 

If they do vote yes my sympathies will be for those who voted no.

[red vtec]

 

If they do vote yes my sympathies will be for those who voted no.

Indeed I can see a lot of trouble which ever way it goes, it will divide communities and families. Salmond and the Jimmy Krankie sidekick are fire mongers.

[Bibs]

A recent poll said that the 'yes' vote is favourite, companies have lost billions! 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-companies-billions-of-pounds-value-loss-pro-independence-poll-lead

[stephenbirdsall]

I'm most definitely NOT an economist, but it seems to me as if even the possibility of a yes vote has caused damage to sterling and the UK financial market.

 

I'd prefer for the Scottish voters to stick with the UK, but if they chose to leave the union, I can see no reason for the rUK to help 'them' if it won't help 'us'.

 

This is said as a half Scot who is married to another half Scot. No vote for us though, we were both born in London.

[mdavies]

Given how the potential voting now looks, I am not proud of having paid no attention to this thread previously; and I apologise if my following point has already been made in the six previous pages.

 

Globally, too many countries to list are riven by on-going strife rooted in the fact that they are comprised of a mix of populations that rank some form of identity - ethnic, religious, regional, whatever - above their "passport country".  In recent centuries we in Britain have been very largely untroubled by such issues; we work, love, build sports teams with, drink with, create out armed forces with, every blooming thing with other Brits without considering which of our four nations they come from. (Yes, we compete in sport and competitions and raise our individual flags there, but the speciality of those circumstances is something that we recognise and share - if unspokenly - above the competing itself.) I feel no need to identify my own nation in writing this because I believe that would, today, be irrelevant to any that may read it. (It would be very clear when Wales play England at rugby!)

 

It the Scots vote yes, this situation will no longer be the case. Not in the rUK and not in Scotland. On both sides of the border we will be intimately involved with foreigners, some so by choice, some enforced to be. And with many, many source of disagreement in "the separation" already clear.  What an unbelievable shambles.

 

At the very least we could have had a rUK "referendum" ahead of the Scots one on whether we wanted them to go. I believe a 70/30 majority for "Stay" - at least. That would have sent a message at the emotional level - largely lacking - to the undecided Scots and importantly given the rUK a voice.

 

If the vote is Yes, things will get tough and rough.