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"the sooner we can have independence the better it will be for all"

HEAR HEAR we are fed up with it

hindsight: the science that is never wrong

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My heart sank when I saw this thread reappear, I'd love to see the end of this garbage. The SNP can go and **** themselves up the **** with a nail covered baseball bat. They represent the worst of all

Desperate people (the EU) will do desperate things and to be honest the EU "punishment" of the UK is still going on now.  I love Europe, but I really cannot stand the politics of the EU. It is full of

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I'm really fed up of it however it was nice to see Andrew Marr getting "stuck into" Sturgeon for once on his show yesterday. She really did not like the scrutiny. Then on the Scottish Politics show afterwards we had the numpty Michael Russell comparing Johnson's refusal to submit to a Indy Ref to Trumps refusal to accept Biden saying that unlike Trump and Johnson the SNP is fully supporting of democracy. Yet again I find myself shouting at the TV as the interviewer does not ask the obvious question "well, that may be the case Mr. Russell but you certainly have never accepted the democratic outcome from the previous referendum have you?"  It would have absolutely showed him up.

 

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Or the fact that the SNP had agreed it was a once in a lifetime vote!

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Let them go, they can pay for their own defence, healthcare etc. They have no business as the oil is drying up and they have sod all else apart from tourism (that's working well at the current time) There is only so much Shortcake and whiskey you can flog.

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And Salmon.

 

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Actually @red vtecthere is a lot of renewable energy that is used across the UK and would certainly increase energy costs in rUK if it was taken away.  Farming/food production is strong and actually manufacturing on a smaller scale is strong.  So we should not belittle that.

However, as someone who lives here I am well aware that our spending on services and the public sector is supported by the rest of the Uk and I worry that those so fervently seeking Independence have given little thought to "how" the finances and lifestyle of people in Scotland will be impacted. My suggestion is that impact would not be for the better, especially for those of us who work. And what would it do for Scotland's exports to it's biggest market, which is in fact, the rest of the UK?  Scotland turns it back on the rUK so the rest of the UK may turn around and say stuff your shortbread and tartan.

IF Independence happens. My first act will be to "officially" move back home with my mother (a Scot who lives in England!).  Straight away I will reduce my tax liability by 5% and avoid any future increases to pay for all the stuff that the SNP will want to give away in their new "country" to keep their supporters happy.  I'll go back to Scotland at the weekend to see the wife until we manage to sell the house!  I kid you not...  That way I can ensure my elderly mother is OK and preserve my wealth. Yup. A selfish bastard or what.  

I am pretty sure I will not be the only actively working and tax paying resident in Scotland who will leave quickly for financial reasons and what will that do to the balance of payments?

An independent Scotland sounds superb. The romantic dream. Great. Crack on if that is what is wanted.  But how long before the crying kicks in, and the accusations that the rest of the UK has someone "shafted" Scotland as a result of Scotland getting what it wanted?  I mean, it's bad enough now that the SNP is not held to account (for reducing standards in education, health, police, and public services across the piece) for their poor performance as the masses seem to swallow their Bullshit that it is all that nasty Westminster's fault. Christ can you imagine the pish and drivel if it all starts unravelling after Independence and there will be no EU or Westminster bailout this time!  I just don't think many of the fanatics up here have actually thought it through. They just want Independence at any cost and think someone else will pick up the bill.

 

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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@Chillidoggyit is because they "believe".  What they "believe" in has never really been clarified other than "we want independence". It's very much like with Brexit - "we want to take control back" but "what control" was never really properly defined.

I genuinely get confused though as there is a strong desire for Independence and yet every time they (Independence supporters) think they are not getting their fair share of "grants/subsidies" they cry like babies straight out of the womb. I wonder if they actually realise that Independence means they can spend what they make and "borrow" what they don't make - but that "borrowing needs to be paid back at some time".  The Financial Crisis and COVID should surely have shown that as a United Kingdom we can get through major Global downturns and issues. Not sure how Scotland would have handled either on it's own especially when the biggest bank bailouts where to the Royal Bank, and Bank of, Scotland. How on earth would Scotland have funded that "on its own"?  If someone has an answer to that I would genuinely love to hear it.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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I'm sure they'd miss the £32bn annual Barnett money too. 

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I think the desire for independence is due to the believe that Westminster is the reason for Scotland’s ills; all as incessantly espoused by Sturgeon.
 

On top of that, once freed the shackles of the UK, Scotland will be able to achieve its true potential. Damned if I know what those shackles actually are.

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32 minutes ago, Bibs said:

I'm sure they'd miss the £32bn annual Barnett money too. 

And a significant proportion of that is Westminster returning to Scotland the share of the UK Government tax take by population. It's a little disingenuous to suggest the "subsidy" or the shortfall is that full £32bn. It is not. Public sector revenue in Scotland (so cash collected through tax, NICs, VAT etc) was £54bn in 2019. So that's total money in. So you could argue the other way and say the rUk would miss that £54bn! However, you cannot say that that means that Scotland is in surplus of £22bn. Don't you just love stats, figures etc. You can manipulate them to say pretty much whatever you want. However, it is fair to say that Scotland is a net receiver in the UK. In fact, all the devolved regions are net receivers, only England is a net contributor. 

Let's try to keep a bit of balance :)

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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I was under the impression that that figure was before adjustments for devolved taxation...

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/barnett-formula#:~:text=In 2019%2F20%2C the Barnett,public services in each nation.

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No, the formula is based on spend across "some" areas not all. I can assure that England is subsidising Scotland but I am pretty sure it is not to the tune of £32bn per year! It's actually a subsidy of around £3.2bn per year.  Not an insignificant sum, but not the in the realms of fantasy land like £32bn. That £3.2bn also assumes Scotland takes it's 1.9% of GDP share of the UK defence budget. An Independent Scotland could of course decide to spend nothing on defence, but, they will lose income from defence contracts as there is no way the rUK will pay "Scottish" firms to build UK weapons (ships etc). So that will be large revenues losses and probably job losses too.

 

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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4 hours ago, red vtec said:

Let them go, they can pay for their own defence, healthcare etc. They have no business as the oil is drying up and they have sod all else apart from tourism (that's working well at the current time) There is only so much Shortcake and whiskey you can flog.

Just to be clear, ----  whiskey is Irish. Whisky is Scottish.  :wine:

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2 hours ago, williamtherebel said:

Just to be clear, ----  whiskey is Irish. Whisky is Scottish.  :wine:

Well, if your are in the US and Ireland it is Whiskey. If in Canada, India, Japan and Scotland it is Whisky.

 

 

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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I think we should provide free buses, planes and trains to Gretna from anywhere on the south coast....

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The Faster You Drive...The Slower You Age

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What are they going to do about currency? You can't have an independent country without an independent economy.

They seem to insist they are going to keep the UK Pound, but that would mean they remain effectively under Westminster control.

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1 minute ago, Neal H said:

They seem to insist they are going to keep the UK Pound, but that would mean they remain effectively under Westminster control.


like Zimbabwe using US$ 😂😂

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Perhaps then I can have ENGLISH on my passport... and when I fill in a census form I can also use ENGLISH, which you can't do at present.

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36 minutes ago, Neal H said:

What are they going to do about currency? You can't have an independent country without an independent economy.

Although the SNP referrendum pitch is to use the Pound (Bank of England....) in the short term, then fanciful suggestions around a Scottish currency.   The reality would be that membership of the Eurozone would be mandated.  The EU would be able to dictate all terms and conditions.  The SNP would have zero leverage.       

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I always assumed that Scotland would want to join the EU and adopt the Euro, but would the EU want them as they’ll be another net drain on its budget and Spain would probably veto it anyway as they wouldn’t want a precedent set for Catalonia.

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Does Scotland fit the criteria for EU membership?

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3 hours ago, Neal H said:

You can't have an independent country without an independent economy.

Actually you can. But I understand your point.  

 

3 hours ago, Mark030358 said:

Perhaps then I can have ENGLISH on my passport... and when I fill in a census form I can also use ENGLISH, which you can't do at present.

You won't. It will say British or UK as you won't have a different passport for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

1 hour ago, Neal H said:

I always assumed that Scotland would want to join the EU and adopt the Euro, but would the EU want them as they’ll be another net drain on its budget and Spain would probably veto it anyway as they wouldn’t want a precedent set for Catalonia.

The SNP wants to take Scotland back into the EU. They are correct. And this is why the SNP needs to be very careful to make sure that it has a lawful mandate for the Independence Referendum and therefore the result is recognised in International Law.  No mandate, no international recognition, no membership to the EU. This is simply because Spain, Italy, France and others will "block" membership as it sends a signal to the separatists in their own country that a non legal referendum will allow them to split and join - e.g. a la Catalan tried to do.

 

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

Does Scotland fit the criteria for EU membership?

No. Currently Scotland would not qualify for membership and would need a significant period of time to "prepare" to enter the process. The UK, including Scotland has already "left" the EU so unlike last time (when the UK was still a part of the EU) if Scotland gains independence it will become an Independent nation "outside" the EU. Therefore it will need to apply to join and will subject to the same scrutiny, rules and process for membership as everyone else. It will also be at the back of the queue starting a lengthy process.    The interesting thing is that Brexit really has changed the goal posts and indeed the game for an independent Scotland.  Key questions now raised would be:

1. How long will it take an Independent Scotland to sort out it's debt and finances to the point that it will meet the criteria to join the EU and convert to the Euro?

2. What will happen to Scotland's trade upon Independence? It will need to negotiate it's own trade deal with the EU (good luck with that!) and arguably a trade deal with it's biggest export market, the rUK (good luck with that).

3. Until it get's membership of the EU, Scotland will use the GB£ but it will have no say, control or authority, over the rUK's currency policies and strategies and will have to adapt to cope with the impacts of a third party currency decisions on its own economy

4. What will be the settlement for separation?  The SNP has already stated that Scotland would take it's fair share of the UK debt (which it would roughly assume I am sure as c. 8%) however, given that the deficit in Scotland is an order of magnitude more than in in rUK we could find ourselves taking a much higher proportion, say 12%, that would prove to be quite some burden on our coffers and ability to borrow more. But then there is the "reckoning" of assets that the UK has built/invested on in Scotland. What proportion of those Assets would remain as "Scottish" and what would be the cost of those assets and how will they be paid for (there will need to be a process of netting off assets/liabilities etc between Scotland and rUK).

5. Once Scotland joins the EU, her currency will change to the Euro, she will be a member of Shengen. So, currency, trade, borders and freedom of movement will all affect Scotland's relationship with the rUK. Border patrols and formal crossings (please don't laugh this off anyone, it will have to happen - just look at the hoo haa right now between NI and Eire due to Brexit and rUk will be even tougher on Scotland due to the land, not sea border) with passport checks.  I really don't think people have thought this through and just think meh, will never happen.  They are totally wrong.

6. What happens to thousands of workers like me - work for a foreign company/UK company registered in rUK but live in Scotland.  Massive issues re travel and also pay, tax, regulation, legislation, etc.  Again, I really don't think this is being considered.

7. Crisis Three - We have the financial crisis. The UK got through it together. We have COVID. The UK is getting through it together. Whatever #3 is, how will Scotland survive without outside help as we could be independent and not a part of the EU.

 

There are some real questions that need to be asked. That are never asked though. And the when they are skimmed over, we just get the usual Bull Shit responses - i.e. told nothing of any substance just usual fairy stories

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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18 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

ou won't. It will say British or UK as you won't have a different passport for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

But can I put English as my ethnicity on the next census, as currently we can't.... personally I hope it never happens ;)  

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