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My new S4s has let me down!


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Eh? What?

Your fuel pump is supposed to run permanently......... so it can't over run!?!?!?!?!?

Pressure is regulated by the fuel pressure regulator. If that is what they said then they are talking shit I'm afraid.

Fuel stop switch LOL..... Dealers, gotta love em for the bullcrap they spout!

I might be getting the lingo wrong but clues are:

They took my fuel pump off and chucked 12v straight at it and it wouldn't do anything - so obviously dead.

I made a point about hoping it wasn't to do with something else that killed the pump. Like remnants of the immobiliser 

 

They came back with a discovery of the (and here is where my tech stuff is lacking so heres a copy and paste)..

 

"The car is now up and running! - we have now discovered that the reason the fuel pump failed is the fuel cut off switch had failed causing the pump to overrun"

 

So that was the diagnosis direct.

They (as in "I") have to wait for Lotus parts to get the bits to them - which is not 'next day' shall we say.  Not their fault there, I guess.

 

A look out of the house window - REALLY want the thing back.

 

For the moment I have a 'splendid' grin-maker - the stag minus roof!

Funny thing - the pump for that is in the boot.  It 'ticks' to tell you it's working.  If you have a bash then a knock sensor is under the boot lid.  You press a button.  End of story.  (I had to use it once, I'm afraid).  How easy?  On the other hand - a V8 with half the power of 'the missing one'. But then the Stag was made for cruising' ..... whoops get back on topic....  next post to read...

What, they pulling the engine?  That's way over the top.  I'd make them repair the existing pump within the terms of the warranty.  Then you can fit the electric pump at your leisure.

The fuel pump and associates are within warranty - the charge cooler isn't.  "Sold as seen" as it were!

I don't think they're removing the engine from the bay (or do they have to for the accessibility stuff).?

Is this garage next door to the binocular shop?

A flare up of ulcerative colitis and a dead brain renders that quote as 'over my head' I'm afraid.

Anyone got U/C?  Fun isn't it?

 

Ok - details of current idea coming up.....

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Thanks lads, for the input - its all as valuable as gold IMO. re: "if you are not fully committed to the car, either financially or emotionally, you should move it on" When I made the financ

Hello Stephen, Just had a look over the fairly recent postings of your thread and with fresh eyes offer the following. Clearly something quite grave is amiss with the engine and one would be unwi

I really do hope you get the outcome you desire on this car.   Frankly some of the comments on this thread have been acidic and damn right petty at best - I’ve not enjoyed reading some of these

Current idea.  As promised / threatened....

 

- First - I've asked them NOT to fit the CC pump.  PNM said that they'd do an engine rebuild for the 6* 110 original quotation they offered! Jeez - that's 660 quid pus 20% !   I really can justify it.

 

I regret asking them to replace the boot struts, knowing the hourly rate.

Although I don't regret asking them to sort the Air con.  I can only imagine it's quite specific for that sort of car.  Not your 'turn up, re gas, drive away minus £40'.

 

Sooooo....... on to the c cooler issue.

 

I might be repeating myself but does anyone disagree or become horrified by any of the following points...

 

1) Remove the bolt on the top of the CC 

2) Remove the pipes that are clearly visible at the top of the CC as you look at it from the right o the car

3) (possibly tricky bit) remove the 'old dizzy' clamp from the impeller housing somewhat downward and inward going in from the rear of the car engine (quite central) and inward.

4) Encourage the old impeller out - begging if necessary - maybe some tears too.  I realise that the bits are legacy from when it powered a standard dizzy).

5) Chuck a water hose to each and every hole and give it a good rinse inside (maybe do this before removing the impeller as I'd guess the water would rush out of there)

6) put an airline into each hole and try and blow as much old fluid as possible out, i.e. attempting to dry it out

7) put dizzy/impeller plug in place, held by a collar.

8) Attach pipes and pump to the two holes at the top of the CC.  The pump is small and the pipes are short therefore I guess the pump would rest 'untethered', i.e. suspended.  I fitted a large davies pump to the stag cooling system and that was meant to hang by itself to avoid transmitting the vibrations to the car frame.

9) Add coolant and allow air to escape from the top filler bolt (running the car to push out air locks?)

 

Heres a novelty - any thoughts on using 'waterless coolant' thats become all the rage recently ?

I think the fluid is a bit thicker than standard coolant but it contains no water at all.

I think it bold at 180C but that's more for engine cooling.

 

If not waterless coolant which would be best - red or blue?

 

Have I got the instructions correct there?  This is from my head rather than reading it off a website - I'm just using instinct.

 

My major question is - are the 2 pipes at the TOP of the CC the ones that the electric pump is attached too?.

 

Re - connecting to power.  I'm not too bad at this - I have a mini !!!

 

How could that take longer than an hour?  Is it the impeller removal part?

 

Thanks to you all....

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OK Bear with me a Bit.
 
Lets break this down piece by piece.
 

They came back with a discovery of the (and here is where my tech stuff is lacking so heres a copy and paste)..
 
"The car is now up and running! - we have now discovered that the reason the fuel pump failed is the fuel cut off switch had failed causing the pump to overrun"
 
So that was the diagnosis direct.
They (as in "I") have to wait for Lotus parts to get the bits to them - which is not 'next day' shall we say.  Not their fault there, I guess.

 
So this is utter shit, I'm glad you copied and pasted it as it proves that the dealer is lying to you and its not just the fact you've muddled up their description.
 
There is only 1 fuel cut off switch. It is an inertia switch designed to cut the fuel pump supply in the event of an accident. You clearly haven't crashed your car, and besides if the switch was faulty it would stop the pump from running not make it continue to run.
 
There is no such thing as fuel pump over run on your Esprit, indeed on any fuel injected car. They require a constant regulated pressure at the fuel rail, hence a fuel pressure regulator fitted to the fuel rail. This device sets the fuel pressure in the rail and recirculates and excess fuel back into the tank. The fuel pump only ever stops running if you either.
 
A. Turn off your ignition switch
B. Crash your car
C. Have a Knackered ECU?
 
They (as in "you") will be waiting for a very long time for the part they are requesting from Lotus as it DOES NOT EXIST. If it is the inertia switch they are replacing it will make sod all difference as it doesn't do what they are telling you it does.
 
They are basically lying to you hoping that you believe they are trying their best when really they don't seem to have any idea what they are looking at or talking about.
 

The fuel pump and associates are within warranty - the charge cooler isn't.  "Sold as seen" as it were!
I don't think they're removing the engine from the bay (or do they have to for the accessibility stuff).?

This is also crap. If the fuel pump is in warranty then so is the Chargecooler impellor. Your car will not work properly without it.

 

They sold you the car, they are the ones to be sorting it out. They are just trying to wriggle out of it.

 

I don't think it is unfair of you to suggest they install the electric pump for free as they are messing you about. Thing is, would you trust them on the basis that they are already lying to you?

 

What if your windscreen washers didn't work, your radiator fans, brakes were in a dangerous condition, your windows didnt close or your doors didn't unlock? Which of these would you consider acceptable having given them an awful lot of your money?

 

I'd be wanting money returned or standard impellor replaced (although again would you trust them?)

 

Their quote of 6 hours @ £75 an hour is extortionate. This is their way of recouping some of the costs they have incurred looking into this problem for you. It is a very simple job. Do it yourself, but leave it until your car is working perfectly otherwise they will blame you fitting it, causing the fuel pump issue if/when it happens again, as they still clearly haven't identified the cause, if their was any, of the pump failing in the first place. If the fuel pump failed it was most likely just because it was old, or because it got jammed up with some crud floating around in your tank (rust?) although I think they are supposed to have a filter on their inlet to stop that from happening.
 

A flare up of ulcerative colitis and a dead brain renders that quote as 'over my head' I'm afraid.
Anyone got U/C?  Fun isn't it?
 
Ok - details of current idea coming up.....


This one is simple to explain, but once again states they are talking bullshit and trying to pull the wool over your eyes, looking for things that don't exist.

 

 

So do you get where I'm gently nudging you in the direction of with this post?

 

Either ask for your money back, or ask for some money returned for your inconvenience.

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Chunky Lover

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Boot struts are 5 mins a side. That's no exaggeration. One clip either end.

 

The Air con, unfortunately is as you described it not being.

 

Yes you could have taken it anywhere, the chances that they have done anything other than re-gass it is highly unlikely and the fittings for topping up are pretty standard. You'r air con will most likely stop working again very soon as wherever the last lot of refrigerant leaked from ,this latest lot will end up disappearing out the same place!

Chunky Lover

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Simon - you have given me A LOT to think about - and I thank you for your knowledge.

 

Gaah! It's such a brain/heart thing!  I really want the car back as I love it.  I'm not going to be able to get myself to a refund.  It's precicely the right car in the exact colour of choice. "It's mine all mine" says my heart!

 

The struts - big mistake - they told me the cost 'all in' - I said yes out of ignorance.  My instructions - so no way out.

I am definitely NOT having the CC pump fitted (as can be seen in my 'thoughts').

The air con thing was another 'standard charge' thing.  I'm waiting for the 'complications' email.

 

They are giving me an update tomorrow so lets see what they say.

 

I hope they're not reading this (from my point of view) because I'm one of those soft sh*tes without the bark who will only lunge if pushed to the limit.

I should have paid you to pay for it!!!!   :-)


"Boot struts are 5 mins a side. That's no exaggeration. One clip either end."

 

FFS !!!!

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I hope they're not reading this (from my point of view) because I'm one of those soft sh*tes without the bark who will only lunge if pushed to the limit.I should have paid you to pay for it!!!! :-)"Boot struts are 5 mins a side. That's no exaggeration. One clip either end." FFS !!!!

I do get what you mean, but it would be good for you if they were reading this and realising that they are going to have a hard time pulling the wool over your eyes as you are getting very good and accurate advice.

Personally I would have no issue in you telling them exactly what I've said and even saying who told you and where from you got your advice. <<<---- ok that last bit is not really my place to say. This ain't my playground, I'm just allowed to play here, Mr Bibs may not be so pleased.

Edited by Simon350S

Chunky Lover

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Ok, not wanting to rub salt into your gaping open wound but.....

http://www.sgs-engineering.com/gsc1608-lotus-esprit-boot-strut

Two of them and half hour labour, so they can make a brew and drink it in your time too....

That comes to a grand total of £68.68

They want a markup on the struts, no problem. Extra £10 per strut seems fair.

That's a total of £88.68. I hate to think what they quoted you but it will make you see quite how much they are stiffing you.

Edited by Simon350S

Chunky Lover

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I do get what you mean, but it would be good for you if they were reading this and realising that they are going to have a hard time pulling the wool over your eyes as you are getting very good and accurate advice.

Personally I would have no issue in you telling them exactly what I've said and even saying who told you and where from you got your advice. <<<---- ok that last bit is not really my place to say. This ain't my playground, I'm just allowed to play here, Mr Bibs may not be so pleased.

Jeez - I cash in my endowment and 10 year ISA scheme so I could *pay* for my Esprit this time round and look where I am.

I think I need them to do the basics - give it back working - and forget about warrantees (unless the engine falls out or something) and just sort things out bit by bit.

At the end of the day its not a Ford Focus, VW Golf or something where I can exchange for a replacement - a blue S4s (i.e. that colour in a world number of less than 400).  I'll end up waiting again.  The car is sound - these things will be fixed.  I am going to drive this car - as and when I want!  Well, once I get it back.....

Ok, not wanting to rub salt into your gaping open wound but.....

http://www.sgs-engineering.com/gsc1608-lotus-esprit-boot-strut

Two of them and half hour labour, so they can make a brew and drink it in your time too....

That comes to a grand total of £68.68

They want a markup on the struts, no problem. Extra £10 per strut seems fair.

That's a total of £88.68. I hate to think what they quoted you but it will make you see quite how much they are stiffing you.

lesson learned - TICK.......  next lesson....

Proof that salt IS bad for you

This is so annoying. It seems a guy who needs help is being shafted to me.

 

Whoops! I forgot I was the customer !!!

Anyone fancy meeting up for a rally?  An I don't mean the car sort!!!  :-)

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Struts - not even worth quoting for.

Fuel pump - load of bullshit, and only time will tell if it was just the pump.

Chargecooler pump - doesn't compromise anything else mechanically, just performance. And apart from a minor vacuum leak, I could find nothing else wrong with the way it was running.

If it's now a going concern, march in and get it before they cock something else up.

British Ambassador to Florida, New York, Denmark and Newfoundland.  And Sweden.

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^^^^^^^^^^^

Think me and Mr Sparks are on the same page with this one.

If you really want to keep her, get her back and tuck her up in your garage safe and well.

You've saved a good few £1k's on the purchase price, spend that money wisely with someone you CAN trust.

I see no good coming from keeping the car with them any longer. You ARE entitled to a warranty and they should be honouring it properly, but at what risk to further damage?

Oh, and leave them a review in the Dealers section here...!

Chunky Lover

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There actually is a pressure relief valve built into the electric in-tank pumps, kinda like a ball on a spring though.  it's more likely the pump was old and or dying/dead, just because they are getting to be that age.  I've been getting several emails from others who have had problems that were resolved after replacing the fuel pump.

 

Should be covered if you have a warranty.

 

Takes an hour, and a new pump could be had for ~$60 depending on sources.

 

That is way too much for the charge cooler install...  Though it can take a beginner quite a while to do.  Flushing and refilling the chargecooler does take a while just by itself.

Travis

Vulcan Grey 89SE

My Lotus Photo and Projects Album

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I completely rebuilt my original mechanical chargecooler pump myself. I had an issue with my rear struts not passing electricity for the rear tailgate light. I have had to bleed my chargecooler circuit as well.

 

I haven't done one of those jobs on an esprit before.

 

Chargecooler pump removal and fitting an electric one? Easy and 2 hours is heaps.

Rear struts are as people say. Clip each end. 5 minutes each plus cost of strut. The struts are also not difficult to source.

Bleeding the chargecooler circuit is easy if you follow the manual.

 

I agree with Sparky and Simon. You need to get the car back in your possession quick. Isn't there a gov body that regulates car dealers that you can talk to as well?

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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If I was a betting man I would wager that most of your engine related problems would be solved with a new fuel pump

 

.As it happens  I have a brand spanking new lotus supplied pump complete assembly sat in my garage next to my brand spanking new ( rocking horse pooh) ABS pressure switch,if you really are stuck pm me.

 

   Nick S4s

Simplest things first.

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Seems to me that the garage have got the car back, know they're supposed to fix it, but actually have no idea how to do so, or what's wrong with it. That's extremely embarrassing for a Lotus garage, isn't it?

If it were me I'd be tempted to tell them to simply trailer it back home and sort it myself with the aid and in-depth knowledge of the splendid chaps here, or ask for a refund, as it's clearly not fit for purpose. Whatever, I hope it's sorted to your satisfaction soon, Stimpy.

I might have a look at the remaining black S4 that Snow has, I haven't decided yet, but will be asking some searching questions about their service back-up and warranty if I do.

Edited by ian29gte

Margate Exotics.

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  • Gold FFM

Nice bit of guesswork there!  I contacted the pump kit manufacturer and they said up to 2 hours too!

I think they may be near the 'loss making' margin for the car and need to recoup somehow.

I'll make a few points about fitting the thing after I've read the other responses below you, so hold on.....

Not much guessing involved, although mine came with an electrical pump I still had to remove the mechanical pump and decided to rewire the electrical one. It took me about 1 hour (including dismantling the old pump to see what had failed), but that was with the engine out of the car so access was not an issue. :smoke:

 

Your plan of attack to do it yourself seems correct, only needs the wiring added. If you don't want to flush the system (which I agree would be a good idea), you only have to loosen the hoses to the old pump and reconnect to the electrical. If doing a flush, I would also loosen the connections to the chargecooler radiator at the front (not so easy if you don't have a lift). That way you can flush the entire system without fear of accumulating stuff in the radiator, I was surprised how much gunk came out of the front pipes!

 

As for the fuel pump, I missed it in your first point, but something definitely doesn't add up! A bad fuel pump could indeed cause your problems, but how it could 'overrun' is beyond me. Unless it was operated dry for a prolonged time (i.e. engine not running, tank completely dry but pump running continuously anyway).  As said, there is no 'stop switch', only a ECM-controlled relay and an inertia switch (much the same as in the Stag). The inertia switch is located on the rear bulkhead, next to the fuel filter (RHS).

 

I agree you have little reason to trust the dealer anymore, but on the other hand as they are obliged to fix your Esprit under warranty, I would keep the pressure on until you get a working car back. And then stay away from them and take care of the car yourself, with the excellent help you'll get here.

 

Good luck!

 

Filip 

I have made many mistakes in my life. Buying a multiple Lotus is not one of them.

 

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Thanks for all your excellent contributions .

 

My Dad would be 'brains only' and have everything done within the laws of the land etc etc preparing to spans an age so theta they sort it -(which, of course, they're entirely allowed to do at leisure).

 

Trouble is - mine's a heart thing.  I REALLY want the car back - so much that it aches.  A minor side issue - the esprit is - (get ready for this) a 'spare' car in case on e of the classic s go wrong!   Ealing-return is not the best idea of spending time with a super car but that was on of the ideas.  Of course that's 5% of the 'want'.  The rest is ownership.

 

So my plan is and instructions go as follows (my copy and paste).....

 

---------

This one’s more for Ken,

 
I assume the fuel starvation issue and related ‘contributors’ are warranty items under the ‘show stopper’ side of things - but what’s being done with the air con?  Not a show stopper so technically not a ‘pure’ warranty piece.  However having had the car a few months and driven it for 2 weeks I hope there will be generous discounted costs (if you need to charge).
 
It won’t take much to turn me back in to a ‘happy customer’ - I’m just like that :-)   but if you could ‘self-negotiate’ as if you were the owner, if that makes sense?
 
Cheers
Steve
-----------
 
The immediate prior email is from them:-

Hi Mr Humpreys,

 
The gent that is working on your vehicle is not in today - I have just been out and started the car and everything seems okay.

 
We are now just waiting for the fuel shut off switch to arrive, I would think middle of next week sounds plausible.

 
Aircon seems to be working fine and we will just need to slightly top up the gas when vehicle has been running for a while.

 
Kind regards,

 
Mike

 

 

Thanks for the confidence stuff about fitting the item myself (CC).

I thought that putting an airline down it could dry it out completely - so a new start.

 

Any view on waterless coolant?  I'm thinking that that is better for the heat of engine coolant however being non water means no metal reactions and no dirt for the future.  It's  a  new product so I'm in two minds.

 

I really thought they'd fit it for free KNOWING that it was sold with no CC.  But 'sold as seen' are the 3 important words I guess.

 

Thanks again for the advice

 

The stag is getting a lot of love for them moment (weather:mid 70's F, cruising, not a missed beat, there's sone irony in there somewhere!)

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I've taken the liberty of penning the following response for you to send verbatim.

No need to thank me, all part of the service I like to provide :)

Hi Mike

I would be grateful if you would speak to the gent and could get me an explanation on exactly what this fuel shut off switch is, where it goes, what it does and how it will prevent further fuel pump run on's in the future. Also while your at it, an explanation on what fuel pump run on actually is would be great too.

It would be good to know this information incase I have problems in the future and can look for the said part myself.

You see, I've been told you are talking shit, and that your Gent is full of same.

Please, part number, copy invoice from Lotus Parts would be appreciated so I can investigate myself and find out exactly what the mysterious object you intend to fit to my car actually is intended to do.

Many thanks, you ever loyal customer. Steve

P.S. Could you please forward a spare new fuel pump relay and ECU (FOC obviously) when you trailor the car back to me so incase it wasn't just the fuel pump I may well have some chance of fixing it properly myself.

One other thing

This "sold as seen" stuff is utter rubbish. They are not allowed to do that.

They are a dealer.

They sold the car for profit as that's how they make money.

They advertised the car for sale with a nice flashy dealer advert.

I'd print a nice colur copy off for yourself before it disappears as it would be great to present it to a small claims court if it ever got that far.

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Chunky Lover

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Sold as seen doesn't exist ,see a solicitor .Looking at your correspondence it almost seems you are playing with them,get serious get to the point ,stop acting like a victim.Its only a car man put it together man can fix it. 

Simplest things first.

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Err..guys...semi off-topic but wasnt't Paul Matty's offloading a Turbo SE for 11,500 "Sold As Seen"????

 

http://www.paulmattysportscars.co.uk/showroom/stock-detail.aspx?id=3247

 

They're all at it.

Vanya Stanisavljevic '91 Esprit SE | '97 XK8

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Also who writes Mattys adverts?

Blue Elise 135R, very lovely, shoulda bought one when I wanted to back in 06, but advertising his as Blue Velour interior?? Velour?? Really! Alcantara....

Velour LOL :hrhr:

And why would you have a mileage column in every cars description but not display any of them?

Edited by Simon350S

Chunky Lover

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Yeah some of the descriptions have "TEMP" written all over them.

Vanya Stanisavljevic '91 Esprit SE | '97 XK8

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