Turbo/SE brake upgrades on a 1989 NA?

[Dan]

Folks,

I've been doing some reading up on brake upgrades following a recent near miss on the motorway when I realised how mediocre the standard brakes can be. Basically I had a white van about a car length ahead pull out on me whilst about to pass him at 80 when he was doing 60-65. Despite use of horn & lights he continued to move out and forced me onto the central reservation before I could slow enough to duck back in behind him. Fortunately it was a rare section of motorway where the tarmac continues right up to the armco without any kerbs, otherwise it would have got very messy indeed.

Anyhow, it's got me to thinking of brake upgrades. I'm thinking that the following are a sensible first step:

- Drilled/grooved front disc & caliper upgrade (PNM probably)

- Drilled/grooved rear disc upgrade

- EBC Green stuff pads

- Braided brake hoses all round

What are the implications of going for the higher boiling point brake fluids? Do I need this for normal-to-fast road driving? My guess is not.

Are the Green Stuff pads suitable for road use, and how long should I expect to be bedding them in for? Should I be going for a different type of 'fast road' pad?

However, I note from looking round most of the suppliers with catalogues on their sites that the pre-brembo rear disc upgrades are always listed as 88-94 Esprit Turbo, SE, S4 - i.e. never for the NA. Is there any difference between the standard NA rear hub/disc/caliper setup and those of the forced-induction cars that would prevent these discs fitting? The obvious thing I thought of was the disc diameter, but my standard discs are apparently 274mm, same as the Turbo or SE, and the Turbo has the same 15" rear wheels as the NA. This suggests it's not a physical clearance behind the wheel issue - is there something different about the rear hubs or calipers?

I'm off to Matty's tomorrow to discuss fitting all of this lot with them, and to see what their recommendations would be. Any advice much appreciated!

Cheers,

Dan.

[Jussi]

EBC green stuff pads are for normal use. I'm going to buy those for my everyday-cabriolet. I've heard nothing but good on those pads. They don't squeek like so many pads on new cars nowdays. EBC red ones are for race-use and in my opinion they are too "race" for everyday use, it takes time to warm those, so not for normal use.

I've heard green stuff works even in small race-lap use and for lighter cars even in track-use.

Here in Finland EBC green stuff pads for Esprit costs front 134,71euros/pair and rear 103,09euros/pair. Why don't you get EBC-discs also, here they cost 85,91euros/each.

[pitstoppete]

Folks,

I've been doing some reading up on brake upgrades following a recent near miss on the motorway when I realised how mediocre the standard brakes can be. Basically I had a white van about a car length ahead pull out on me whilst about to pass him at 80 when he was doing 60-65. Despite use of horn & lights he continued to move out and forced me onto the central reservation before I could slow enough to duck back in behind him. Fortunately it was a rare section of motorway where the tarmac continues right up to the armco without any kerbs, otherwise it would have got very messy indeed.

Anyhow, it's got me to thinking of brake upgrades. I'm thinking that the following are a sensible first step:

- Drilled/grooved front disc & caliper upgrade (PNM probably)

- Drilled/grooved rear disc upgrade

- EBC Green stuff pads

- Braided brake hoses all round

What are the implications of going for the higher boiling point brake fluids? Do I need this for normal-to-fast road driving? My guess is not.

Are the Green Stuff pads suitable for road use, and how long should I expect to be bedding them in for? Should I be going for a different type of 'fast road' pad?

However, I note from looking round most of the suppliers with catalogues on their sites that the pre-brembo rear disc upgrades are always listed as 88-94 Esprit Turbo, SE, S4 - i.e. never for the NA. Is there any difference between the standard NA rear hub/disc/caliper setup and those of the forced-induction cars that would prevent these discs fitting? The obvious thing I thought of was the disc diameter, but my standard discs are apparently 274mm, same as the Turbo or SE, and the Turbo has the same 15" rear wheels as the NA. This suggests it's not a physical clearance behind the wheel issue - is there something different about the rear hubs or calipers?

I'm off to Matty's tomorrow to discuss fitting all of this lot with them, and to see what their recommendations would be. Any advice much appreciated!

Cheers,

Dan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

brakes between the early non mega braked stevens models are the same it seems, maybe the turbos have a better pad material as std, id have to look up the part numbers in the catalogue. i had some pucker turbo front pads, and they were certainly better. wouldnt touch green stuff with a shitty shit IMHO, there bollox. red maybe.

prob. is the brakes are bit small. mine were dire when i got it, and thats coz they were all semi seized up. really good when i rebuilt all the calipers. front discs were tiny thin too.

but, basically there a bit small for an esprit really, considering the performance.

only go for an upgrade if what youve got, rebuilt still aint good. i went for a DIY front upgrade (see garage), and its awesome. using an infra red thermometer, it shows the rears although bigger and taking slightly more mass, dont get nearly as hot as the dire 258mm fronts. so unless your gonna rag it round the Nurbrurgring all day, it seems u may not need the huge rears. saying that, the later brembo or AP braked ABS cars have the same/similar size front to rears. they wont fit under std rims though.

go for dot5 or similar, and change it yearly.

also if u have a bad vaccum at the servo, that'll cause some problems.

[Jussi]

Peter have you some kind of experience about EBC green stuff pads or why are you blaiming so heavily

I've heard only good about those, even in track use.

[CNH]

If you want a inexpensive way to up grade at least the front rotors which do almost all of the braking, slotted or drilled rotors are available for about $75 USD a piece in the USA. I believe they are the same part as for the 86 Toyota Supra. Green stuff is good as per my last conversation with someone on the PH forum they have a tendenancy to squeal a bit. They use of shims or anit squeal compund to reduce vibrations is the fix for these pads. Either that or you could get multi pot Wilwood calipers that fit the standard wheels. AP's will need a wheels size upgrade as well.

Calvin

[CNH]

If you want a inexpensive way to up grade at least the front rotors which do almost all of the braking, slotted or drilled rotors are available for about $75 USD a piece in the USA. I believe they are the same part as for the 86 Toyota Supra. Green stuff is good as per my last conversation with someone on the PH forum they have a tendenancy to squeal a bit. They use of shims or anit squeal compund to reduce vibrations is the fix for these pads. Either that or you could get multi pot Wilwood calipers that fit the standard wheels. AP's will need a wheels size upgrade as well.

Calvin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come to think of it it may have been for an 85 Supra

[pitstoppete]

Peter have you some kind of experience about EBC green stuff pads or why are you blaiming so heavily 

I've heard only good about those, even in track use.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Green stuff:-

never heard a good word about them for the road, apart from now on this thread hence never tried, and have heard some hideous fade stories about them on the track. most of my local motor club members use proper Mintex 1144 or 1115 compounds. Pagid black are supposed to be the biz too.

on my front conversion, i have started off with completely standard softish Delphi brand pads from the motor factors saying that. u do need a benchmark to start from. these are std for a heavy Fiat turbo coupe, or very heavy Peugoet 406 coupe with a 3 litre V6, or a 200 hp lightweight Seat Leon Cupra with the same brakes and some serious turn of speed. proper brembo pads are outrageous money from Lotus, but the Seat ones are coded the same for later brembo esprits, just different thickness.

I think to sum up, cutting a long story short, not beating about the bush etc, sort the std brakes to as good as possible, use some aftermarket pads if gen. ones are too expensive, and then mod it so it actually stops in an emergency, as mine, even when as good as they get, still didnt inspire any confidence when really needed. ok the did it for me around town, but it was a rear ender waiting to happen (ooerr missis).

90% of the cars i have seen/worked on/modded/serviced with grooved or drilled discs have been a real mess disc wise. its an expensive gimmick usually, unless some one who really knows what they are doing has thought about the holes/slots on them. AP racing seem to have perfected it.

[CNH]

Pitstoppete, Good for you. I thought I was one of the few using Mintex.

[Jussi]

I have used Mintex also on my race-car (which I drove on the streets) they worked well.

Those EBC greenstuff pads are very popular with Peugeot 206CC owners. Those have been good upgrade to make original pads squeaky sound away.

[superdavelotus]

Hi there,

I've had various brake upgrades from PNM. The last car I had was a 90 turbo and I had the 4 pot Hi-Spec kit fitted with 286mm discs, 4 pots calipers, braided hoses and brackets for

[superdavelotus]

Oh, BTW, EBC don't recommend green stuff on single pot calipers, see their literature about BMW single pot calipers. I think they recommend red stuff. Green stuff they say may cause brake judder.

[Jussi]

Oh, BTW, EBC don't recommend green stuff on single pot calipers, see their literature about BMW single pot calipers. I think they recommend red stuff. Green stuff they say may cause brake judder.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So EBC green stuff isn't suitable for Esprit?

[Dan]

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions. I'm reading through the various options and price lists now. I'm also wondering if changing everything in one go as I suggested is the best approach, or whether I should start by uprating the fronts, e.g. with better discs and pads, and see how that feels & performs. I don't want to change everything and end up with a twitchy car!

Will the rear disc upgrade offer that much extra to justify doing it? How much better do you want the rear brakes to be? Is there a balance between front/back braking efficiency that in turn gives a trade-off between efficiency and controllability...? e.g. reaction to hard braking in the wet or on a bend.

Dan.

[th4neuk]

Dan,

As Dave says I've gone for the biggest upgrade PNM do and am very pleased with the results. The stopping power for normal driving is immense compared to the old standard set-up. Admittedly I have to run bigger wheels (now S4s Split rims. wahoo) but I'm happy with that. I think with having such big fronts the rears being bigger just helps with the balance of the car. I am hoping to try it on the track later in the year so I will see how they perform under serious use. FWIW I would be tempted to go down the road Dave suggested unless you want bigger wheels.

Cheers

Alan Croft

89 Turbo (Chargecooled)