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Jacques

new castrol edge fst titanium for stevens cars?

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Hi all,

Just spoke to a castrol salesguy on the Copenhagen Historic Grandpris. He told me, that Castrol will outphase their Edge FST engine oil, and replace it with Edge FST Titanium. They claim, that the particles will double the film stregth (as in sublime to ultra sublime)

 

So, is that approved for Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (1990)?

 

Is it worth anything or crap?

 

Does it harm anything?

 

What could happen to engine oil temp, and engine oil temp?

 

Alle views on this appreciated.

 

I am currently running Edge FST 10W-60, and expect to continue doing that unless the new formula is a lot better, while supplies last.

 

Cheers,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Well theyve already fazed out edge sport..now the fst will be changed. Its supposedly to the ssame (acceptable) spec as previous. Im sure it will be perfectly fine..

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Called Castrol's organisation in Denmark today, and they told me, that they don't answer questions to private customers, and that they only know a Little about the new oil. I've spoken to a few retailers and they don't know anything about the oil, other than what Castrol writes in a short folder, which is now they've added some sort od titanium, and that it nearly doubles the film strengh compared to their previous oil.

 

They also told me today, that they are nearly sold out on Castrol FST (the previous version), and that is the one I've been using on my Stevens Turbo SE, so far.

 

I've think is pretty pathetic and don't feel any confidence in their new product so far, if they cannot even answer some questions about their own product, and further more that they don't answer questions from endusers.

 

I've searched quite some places around the www, and there are some Places where it is being told, that the new oil forms some sludge and some foam in some engines.

The now terminated version EDGE FST do not do this in my engine, and I don't want to be a trial and error with my cars. I have been using Castrol products, including various oils of theirs on my three engines for over 20 years, and now they pretty much substitute it without propper info on the newest version(s).

 

That is not confidence inspireing.

 

Links or contact info to knowledgable persons on this specific oil is most appreciated.

 

Imagine if I asked Lotus about their cars, and they couldn't and wouldn't answer...

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Hmm... Go to the head and get your answers. So I did, and called Castyrol UK, and they got back to me with a as many answers as I would want. That's more like it ;)

 

I will try to repeat some of them here:

 

1/ What is the difference to last version?

Added titanium.

 

2/ What does that do really?

Basically it is a very Little amount of added titanium, and it acts as a kind of pillow between the surfaces, to prevent Wear by minimizing the pressure in the contact of two elements.

 

3/ Is it in any way similar to the teflon additive one marketed by other Companies?

No, not at all. It stays with the base oil, and does not attatch to the surface of a part, say a bearing etc.

 

4/ Does it get caught in the oilfilter?

No, it is extremely small particles, and do not get caught up in the oilfilter and thereby not giving any less filtering area, as it just passes through. Unlike the mentioned teflon, which seperates in the oilfilter.

 

5/ How about hig temperature areas?

It is perfectly capable of working within specs in say a turbo, compressor, etc.

 

6/ How about the zddp level?

It is a high level zddp oil. Any even higher level can be used specifically to run in particlefilter engines.

 

7/ How about the zink level?

It is a normal high level engine oil. Castrol currently have two lines of oil: one with high level, as it's actually been used since the 1960'ies, and one lower level, for particlefilter oils and race engines like in formula 1.

 

8/ Why is that?

A very high level of zink can lead to a shorter life of filtration in the exhaustsystem, like in a catalyzer.

 

9/ Does the titanium substitute any higher level of say zink?

The added titanium does not substitute the zink as they have slightly different propperties and different uses. The titanium adds strengh to the oil film, and the zink adds wearprotection in another way but is less usable long-term, like in a normal street-driven car, between oilchanges. In a racce the milage is much shorter, and degradation is of a far less concern. The zink is very expensive to add, and the new added titanium is cheap to add. But they do do the same function.

 

10/ How about winterstorage? Fresh oil?

well, it's is not optimal to change the oil exactly before laying the car up for the Winter. This is because the additives in the fresh oil, that cleans the engine, are most aggressive in a fresh unused oil. If you for example want to put the car away for the Winter in say November, then drive a good long trip, to get rid of any condensation in the oil, and to let it catch poluting particles, like carbon as a byproduct of the burning of fuel, to make the cleaning agents get a Little bit less aggressive, or "worn". They will not be worn as such, just a bit less aggressive to the sealings and gaskets.

 

11/ How about this oil being bearer of puluted particles in the oil?

This oil is very very good in cleaning the engine, and it bears the carbon, fuel etc, away very well.

 

12/ Warming up the engine during Winter?

No, I think this is nota good idea, because most people will only start the engine, and let it warm up to normal temperature, before turning it off. By doing this, we see a higher level of fuel in the engine oil, and this can have a negative effect on the corrosion og bearings etc. To start the engine during storage, it would be better to actuallt let it warm up, and drive for a propper long trip, to have the oil circulated and propper warm, and catch and spend the enrichment in fueling from warm up procedure.

 

13/ How about temperature differences to this engine oil. Does it degenerate the oil?

Both yes and no. For the oil to be damaged, it would take a very low temperature, which is well lower tahn minus 25 Degrees Celsius. It is correct that the additives does degenerate during very low temperatures, but unlikely to be seen during use or storage in most part of the World.

 

14/ What happens for the degeneration of the additives to be in effect?

That would more likely happen in another environment. That will be if the oil is exposed to very high temperature differences, like going from warm to very Cold and vice versa. What happens is, that the additives in the oil get's seperated from the base oil, and this changes the propperties of the oil.

 

15/ So, this oil can be changed in the late autum, and kept safely over Winter, and then used for the following season?

Yes, I can recommend doing that, and unless you change the oil more often than the defined interval (by car manufacturer), it can last over the Winter, and be run as just described.

 

16/ How about changing the oil more often than defined by the carmaker?

That can only be a good thing, though this oil is very advanced and can last long time, minimum a service interval. 

 

16/ Is this specific oil suitable for the Lotus Esprit Turbo SE?

Yes, I can very well recommend this oil as the best we have for this car.

 

I forgot to ask him what about mixing two oils, even within the same brand. What Castrol say about this remains to be heard, but I would not do it, especially mixing two different types, eg. semi synt and fully synt, or between two brands. That is just my personal view.

 

I hope this can clarify a Little bit the propperties of the new Castrol Edge Ti 10W60 engine oil.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

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Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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No prob.

 

But I wrote an error related to #7. The oil used in race engines do not, as I wrote, have a lower level of Zink, but instead an even higher level, to protect the engine, but this also Means that it creates sludge. On an F1 engine though, this is not a problem, since it moves ever so few kilmeters in one race.

 

This Means, that for us normal endusers, there is only so much zink in the oil that we use, to prevent Wear and Collection of poluting particles, that is does not reach a point where it creates sludge (from eg. carbon) in our engines. So the level of zink in this oil is lower compared to engie oil in a race engine. Stil a rather high level, like in the 1960'ies.

 

As for #9: Should have been: "they do not entirely do the same function".

 

I would like to correct the text in the above post, but I cannot.

Sorry about that. I hope it's more clear now.

 

And thanks to Castrol UK Technical Dept. for clearing up the questions I had. Muuuch better than their Danish dept.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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hey Jacques, thanks very much for the information. good work.

 

regards

Wayne


Suspension, brakes, chipped, chargecooler rad and pump,injectors,ignition coils and leads, BOV, highflow cat and zorst, Translator and tie rods, Head lights, LEDs to tail lights and interior,Polybushes to entire front end, Rad fans, rad grill, front end refurb with aluminium spreaderplates and galvanised bolts. Ram air, uprated fuel pump, silicone hoses through out, wheels refurbed and powder coated,much more, all maintenance.

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Epic write up mate!

 

Would definitely be good to hear about mixing two oils, as there will always be some amount of old oil in the system. My guess is that it will be okay as long as it's in Major/Minority amounts and not something like 50/50 or even 70/30

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Thanks Guys, very kind.

 

Basically, I just forgot to ask. And I find it rather important as well. Both in principle, and also practically, because brands change their oil quite often to be a new type with this or that additive, to get this or that effect.

I will investigate on this, and report back as I find out.

As I wrote earlier on, I would not mix two types and/or two brands. Furthermore, I would try to flush an old type oil, before adding the new type. And I would flush with the new type, not something else. May be a minimalistic effect, but that is just how I see it.

 

I can add, that I was also told in the same conversation, that the oil was not accepted by bmw because of a too low level of zddp. Not like in a too low level in general, but because BMW prefers an even higher level.

In the same conversation it was mentioned, that for example BMW did not approve it, but Bugatti does, and many others.

 

I prefer that, because BMW need the very high zddp for their diesel turbo engines. Well, my Esprit is not a hard tuned turbo diesel engine than runns short city trips, and Wears Down.

 

Anyways, I'll get back asap with a propper answer.

 

Cheers,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Auch, yet another error I wrote. So here it is: the new Ti formula is also approved by BMW for their M-models. it was the last type that wasn't. At least that is what i was told. Anyway, still the same idea regarding zddp and zink, and backed up by Aston Martin, Bugatti and many more.

I have contacted Castrol and am waiting their answers, which I'll get back to here asap.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Hi all,

 

Got an answer back from Castrol UK to more of my questions. I shall try to list them up here.

 

a/ Need to flush before useing new Edge FST Ti oil?

No, no need, just warm up, drain, change oilfilter, and refill with new Ti version.

 

b/ Flushing, does that represent any problems?

Depends what you mean. Special flushing oils can be carcenogenic, and if engine is really dirty, this can loosen and block oilgalleries and filters, and may be incompatible with our new oil.

Our new Edge Ti have enough dispersants and detergants to keep the engine clean. If you feels you must flush, take the plunge and use the same oil, as you fill fill finally, including the extra oil filter shift.

 

c/ Is it maxable with other oils, types etc?

Yes it is, but it will be compromised by the additives and oil type present in the engine. Best keep to one type and brand for best perofrmance and protection.

 

d/ Should I flush useing Castrol Edge already?

No, no need. Just change the oil and oil filter.

 

e/ what about engines with ball bearings?

We have no preservations using this oil en engines with various applications of ball bearings.

 

f/ Any differences between Edge Ti and Edge FST?

We use and enhanced additive pack including liquis titanium. (me: read: secret). If you cannot get the Ti version, use the Edge FST.

 

g/ What is the best engine coolant Castrol can advise for the Lotus Esprit Turbo SE?

The normal Castrol standard Radicool. This is safe with aluminium. Another alternative would be Radicool SF. This is a silicate free option and would be an excellent upgrade from the standard coolant. Castrol Radicool SF is a long-life coolant, based on monoethylene glycol with advanced organic acid inhibitor technology. In contrast to traditional engine coolants, Castrol Radicool SF does not contain amines, nitrites, posphates, silicates or other inorganic inhibitors. Castrol Radicool SF provides excellent corrosion protection particularly to those engines employing light alloys.

 

Again, thanks to Castrol UK for willingly providing answers to all my questions. These were just some of what I asked.

Hope it may shed some light for others thinking of useing this new type engine oil in their Esprit..

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Good grief, it's like washing powder wars.

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British Ambassador to Florida, New York, Denmark and Newfoundland.  And Sweden.

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:D

There is the "professional" variant, too. Of course there is no relevant info about the differences x_x

Do you think it's all pretty much the same?

 

 

Edited by Giniw

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Professionally, I compare the API specifications as a matter of course when selecting an oil, as well as the grade.

http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/mom_guide_english_2013.pdf

I'm currently using Mobil 1 10W/60 in the Esprit, but there are others equally as good I'm sure. I'm equally sure that there's a lot of marketing bullshit that goes with the sale of motor oils, but that's just my opinion.

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Margate Exotics.

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Well, to answer your question, I called Castrol UK and asked them this ans a few other new questions, and here it is:

a/ Is the new Castrol Supercar similar to Edge Ti?

Yes, it is just a new badgeing, the performance and additives are the same.

 

b/ What about Edge Professional?

Yes, it is also the very same oil, apart from an extra additive, wich is flougenic (can be traced with a specific lamp (like moneynotes and stanps), to verify original oil. This product is not intended for retail from normal oil distributors, but from Premium car dealers, (BMW (me: interesting here. Maybe BMW have a new standpoint to normal to high levelss ofzddp and not extrmely high levels? Or maybe it's just incorrect. I'll try and find out.), Porsche and others), who want to demonstrate to their customers, that they use the real oil, not a copy.

(my comment: aha, so there are now fake Castrol Edge Ti etc. versions of their oil. Beware).

 

c/ Are they all mixable?

Yes, as they are the same oil, save the flougenic additive, they are fully compatible, being the same oil.

 

d/ What about Edge Ti?

It is phased out of markets and you can still get good deals on this oil (badgeing).

 

Thanks to Castrol UK for answering my questions.

So, now we know what is what. Hope it helps those who want to know what's up and down about Castrol Edge (-Ti etc.) oils.

 

Regarding the Castrol Edge versus Mobil 1, 10 years ago Mobil used to be the better oil, but now it's reversed so that the film strengh is much higher on the Edge Ti (and similar newer versions as described in the above). This is verified by Castrol (hmmm) and other in tests (not the garage video on youtube. I used to have links about that, but deleted them as I did not need them for myself and others do what they want anyway ;) Still, make your own descision and buy what you feel is good for exactly your application and of course, as Ians says, have good api values. The amount of sulfur is another matter, and is another discussion.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

 

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Very good infomation well done to you all very intresting, car oils have it easy C ompaired to refrigeration oils as they have to lubricate the compressor at usually 70-80'C but not carbonise at as high as 115'C discharge gas temperature then be fluid and not wax at in the case of a freezer at -35'C evaporating temperature and be missable with the refrigerant liquid Ammonia for example get the wrong oil in a fridgeplant and it can Easley run into run into tens of thousands of pounds to put right someone years ago topped up a CO2 recovery plant running at -40'C with EP90 gearbox oil and that scrapped the 16 cyl compressor at a cost of £35,000 including fitting and had 3 years of constant trouble with the system even after a £6000 flushing plus another £8000 of unrecoverd CO2 whist all this going on and at the end of it it was only ever 90% as good as it was happened at a large well known brewery which I won't name so a little time looking into oils can save a lot of hassle.

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Auch, sound like a real bad case. Have a friend WHO is responsible for a really big maersk containership engine. Oooohh, they are touchy and expensive to maintain/repair.

I agree, really worth looking into, and as oils change constantly, what is good today, is another case tomorrow.

Willy-nilly I am using the Castrol Edge oils (and a few versions before that), newly Ti version, now Supercar version. The Pro version is just fine, but I don't need the verifying method. So don't want to pay extra for that.

Btw, I religiously change oil and original oil filter real often. Never skimped on those. Never had an engine failure ever (knock on Wood). For example I reeved m former Golf2 engine (home tuned) to 8000rpm all the time for 13 years. Never missed a beat.

I'll update as time goes by and if I find out more.

Kind regards,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Thank you very much! :)

As for the API specs, do we know what we need according to Lotus? I only remember they give a few example of recommended oils? If I stick to the API specs, I would say the Helix Ultra 10W-60 Racing is pretty much the same, isn't it? (https://image.delti.com/oil-pictures/Shell/465/Helix_Ultra_10W-60_Racing_9_l.jpg)

Edited by Giniw

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I don't know for sure really. But as far as I've read, they recommended the Castrol Edge fst 10W60 recently (a few years ago). Since the man responsible for testing out newer materials and solutions for the Esprit, is no longer there, as far as I've read on here, there is maybe, just maybe, no more verification possibilities for the Esprit anymore. But I am not sure. Another thing is, that Lotus sells cars, and don't make too much profit and they have shown no real interest in old Lotus cars for the last period, as far as I can see. maybe someone else can tell something better. So, that is another reason for asking specific questions to Castrol, based in the castrol oil Lotus did recommend a few years ago, and take it from there. In this case, the base product is the same, plus newly developed additives, which of course, makes a real difference.

API specs can be "overdone" for some older Constructions, as new high api specs is as you know an American standard, and not in itself a World wide quality proof for all oils in all aplications, though it seems that general consensus react that way.

An example of this is my Laverda engine which related on big ball bearings on the crankshaft. This crushes the molecules in modern oil rather quickly, and the fast flow on these modern oils is not always great for (my) old engine type. the other aspect of viscosity in also worth noting. And finally additives manipulates all modern oils. But not always useable in old type engines, such as this.

Our engines in the Eprits are still able to Work with the latest generation of Castrol Edge oil as it seems, given the answers from Castrol. Lotus though, is silent. Anyone know something new on this?

Based on this and Lotus recommendation of Castrol Edge as mentioned, that oil's API must then be managable for our Lotus Esprit engines.

I think I'll write Lotus and ask. Cannot hurt to ask ;)

Regarding the link you posted earlier on this Supercar version of Edge, it's Delti. Delti Sells tires. A lot. And they also Sells engine oil. Now I jsut happened to order 2 4L Cans of Edge Ti from them, as their website stated they have it on the shelf, and ready to despatch NeXT day. And they had a really good Price.

Two weeks later they cannot explain why I haven't received any oil. They finally retract the Edge Ti offering from their website and refund me my Money. So Supercar verion is the one they have now. Do I wnat to spend another 14 days waiting that they maybe want to deliver the oil to me? Nope. I get it somewhere else. They are very unserious. I have bought a lot of tires from then, though. Websites with relation to internew Trading, overflows in bad consumer reviws on Delti on oils. just for your info.

Kind regards,

Jacques.


Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Jacques, I admire your tenacity.  However, as I said, this just just like the washing powder market.  It's huge and therefore cutthroat.  Castrol spend a fortune on their marketing and this is reflected in their price.  Bottom line, I think Castrol are getting just a bit silly now with their frequent changes.  The API is good enough for me, and I shall continue to use Mobil 1 in my car (as I believe it's a blue-white :D).  I challenge anyone to discern the difference.

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British Ambassador to Florida, New York, Denmark and Newfoundland.  And Sweden.

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By way of an example of API spec, I ran 12-litre Volvo diesels on Shell Rimula 15W/40. Piston/liner life was never more than 2,500 hours. When I changed the oil to a more modern one, with a higher API spec (Castrol 15W/40 Tection), piston/liner life increased to 4,000 hours without doing anything else at all. Neither are available now because they've been superseded by more modern oils, but still with the same grade. Castrol now call it 'Tection Extra' which has a higher spec than the original and with a higher API spec, the same is true for the Shell product, although the name remains.

Machinery manufacturers drive the oil companies to higher specifications as well as the oil companies themselves, and the US manufacturers have the most clout in that area, so please don't make the mistake of thinking that the API spec is not in itself a world-wide quality proof. It is, and it's what we in the marine industry will check when we are looking for oils.

I submit oil samples to our engine manufacturers for testing maybe once a month for each unit, I also submit gearbox oil samples. The returned reports are highly detailed about the oil's content, and give warnings of any impending problems, or trends. But (and this is the important bit) they also state whether the engine oil is fit for further use. That means oil doesn't necessarily have to be changed at a given interval, be that hours run, or (probably more accurate) the quantity of fuel burnt. So, cutting through all the bullshit, the only way you're really going to know whether your oil is any good is to carry out oil sampling and testing. Of course, the vast majority of individuals don't do that, even if it's something anyone can do. Instead we listen and watch the bullshit that's delivered up by the cartload, and swear by whatever manufacturer's oil takes our fancy. I've been wooed by numerous oil company reps in the past trying to sell me their oil, and they all have the same sales pitch about how good their oil is, how much better it is than their competitors' product, how their competitors have 'been having problems' with some of their oils, how it will improve my sex-life and ensure I win the lottery: I've heard it all.

Finally, In my opinion, you should just buy the correct grade of oil for you car, because the chances are that the API spec will be far higher than when the car was built, and as our learned colleague said previously, you won't be able to discern the difference. Manufacturer's oil service intervals are almost certainly conservative in this day and age, and err on the side of caution. The same might be said about cam belts..........


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Well, I agree with both of you. I use this oil, as it was recommended by Lotus, and I can see, feel, smell that my engine runs fine on it. I supplement that with staying curious and ask. Not the sales guy but the tech Guys. For my other car, the Corrado, I am currently using Edge Ti, but have used Shell ultra 5W40. I have been using Mobil1 many times, and stil have a 4L canister or two, and I am certainly not falling for the sales rep talk, hence why I called Castrol UK a number of times, for example. I think a few of the contributing factors to having no problems so far are:

- I use good well known brands oil and type.

- I change engine oil and original oilfilter very often.

- I always let the car warm up before I drive, and then again before I press on.

- I always let the engine cool down, to avoid oil getting carbonised in relation to turbo and compressor.

- I try to look for wear and tear signs, sludge, metal dust, parts etc.

- I store my cars above 10 or 14 degrees cel. (make of that what you want).

- I do the same with gearbox oils, engine coolant and brake/clutch fluids.

- Speaking of which, I change the engine oil on my motorcycle every 2500 Km's or at least every year.

- Normally, I don't mix types and brands.

- I normally try to stay informed of wether a product is actually sucessfull or not, and avoid the usual web garbage about 18'year olds stating that "this or that is good or bad, because their engine exploded after having played gone in 60 seconds"-type stories. For example, the old version of formula Shell fuel, which led to some catastrophic engine failures at least here in Denmark, and was taken off the market. The new version is good enough though. And it has less bioethanol than the "green" 92/95 etc.octane versions. The Danish National Technical Institute wrote a report on that case, and I read that.

- I take my cars and motorcycle to the same known conservative dyno tester, and see the difference, if any.

- I speak to a few engine tuners that I know well. You know, the type who have been doing this for ages. For example thay have shown me what using a long life oil does to an engine with a turbo or compressor, running that interval recommended or even a lot shorter. Sludge all over the engine inside.

- I take a look at liners or bronze inserts in cam bearings for example, when taking the engine apart in relation to milage, how hard it's been used etc. A thing like hydraulic cam followers can tell about an engine oil's performance. Or the inside of an engine block, like when I have taken it apart, and then chemically boiled it and shot peened it and then boiled it again before use. And later after Again.

- I know a guy who used to Work in the oil business, and he's been telling a story or two. While it shouldn't be a bible or anything, it's always good to listen and stay aware and then make your own mind up on the matter.

I am just a normal consumer like most others, and there are no guarantees ever. I by miracle a new engine oil made of melted lego came on the market beeing clearly better and all that, I would run that. I am not affiliated or a slave to a brand. Well, apart from having a weak point for Lotus Esprits, Corrado's and Laverda's ;)  In total, I think I cannot do much more than that.

Submitting oil samples to testing would be great. I will look into that locally to me.

I started this thread not to have a general debate about oils, as many others are way more knowledgable and I am not, and it's been discussed many times over, but more to tell the answers to my questions as they have raised concern for me, hence the asking. I thought that maybe others may (or may not) like to hear it. So use it or not, it's just what I was told. So each to his own.

Kind regards,

Jacques.

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