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O2 Sensor during Warmup behavior (Delco)


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Hi everyone,

 

I'm working on my car's shakedown (just got everything back together and it finally runs again).  Question, however... on the Delco system, what role does the O2 sensor having during warmup...or what does the ECU look at to determine when the vehicle is warmed up and to start reading the O2 sensor?

 

The reason I'm asking... I have a flip-flopping problem at the moment:

 

I just got my engine back together and it starts up great ... but after it warms up, the engine cuts out completely and I literally have to pull aside and give it time to cool down before I can drive again.  I realized I had the gray wire (ground) for the O2 sensor not connected, so I connected it.  Now my problem is swapped, as it runs rough/wants to stall during warmup, but then runs great after that.  In fact, I start it up and it sort of has this lumpy idle, and if I pull the ground to the o2 sensor, it smooths right out....hook up the gray wire again, and it goes back to the lumpy idle.

 

Now I *will* confess... as this was a restoration project, I replaced the original 3 wire Bosch 0 258 003 022 sensor with one I saw listed on the parts x reference...which was a 4 wire Bosch 15704 (0 258 005 704). So with this 'extra' wire on the 15704, the gray one, that's the one I've been grounding to get this different behavior.

 

I've read about Bosch 13030 being pins perfect, etc... but in my car it didn't have a 4 pin connector, it had a 2 pin heater connector and a single pin to the black lead...that was it. 

 

I just got freescan rolling tonight, so I'm going to have a chance to really look at this in more detail once I can get some more cold starts recorded, so any info on the o2 sensor or ecu questions above are appreciated!

 

Thanks

Pete

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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Considering the solder vs. crimp issue, think it's safer to go for the proper part and just plug it in: https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/A918E0322F.htm The symptoms above s

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Pete, using a non-genuine O2 sensor is pure Russian roulette. I've been there, I had the same symptoms as you - car died as soon as it went into closed loop mode from cold, and would work okay when warmed up. It was an aftermarket O2. Swapped for genuine part, problem disappeared.

 

Here's my thread:

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/59496-engine-wont-idle-spray-from-exhaust/?hl=%2Bengine+%2Bwont+%2Bidle+%2Bspray

Vanya Stanisavljevic '91 Esprit SE | '97 XK8

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No idea on the Bosch sensors but the Delco ecu set up uses a 4 four wire sensor.

 

heater +V

heater gnd

sensor signal out

sensor signal gnd

 

The signal cable shielding is also grounded at the ecu.

 

I doubt the symptoms you are describing are due to the sensor, I suspect the wiring is the issue.

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What is technically genuine nowadays for this item? The original was a Bosch 0 258 003 022 sensor that was retired in 2000, according to Bosch it was a Volvo part. Is it now Bosch 13030?

Pete

Edited by DayOff

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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I use a BOSCH 13030 on my 89 Esprit SE, it is not the OE spec, but it is compatible IMO with the stock SE wiring and ECU.

 

When you connected the ground wire and the engine symptoms flipped, the hesitation when cold and then normal running is actually a symptom of a mis-adjusted minimum air rate bleed screw, or an intake manifold air leak on the GM injected Esprit 910 engines. 

 

You really need the EMH section of the Lotus shop manual.

 

In Open Loop, the ECM ignores the signal from the oxygen (O2) sensor, and
calculates the air/fuel ratio based on inputs from the coolant temperature and
manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensors.
The system will stay in Open Loop until the following conditions are met:
i) The O2 sensor has varying voltage output, showing that it is hot
enough to operate properly. (This depends on temperature.)
ii) The coolant temperature sensor is above a specified temperature.
iii) A specific amount of tine has elapsed after starting the engine.
 
CLOSED LOOP:
The specific values for the above conditions vary with different engines, and
are stored in the memory calibration module MEM-Cal). When these conditions are
met, the system goes into 'Closed Ioop' operation. In 'Closed Loop', the ECM
calculates the air/fuel ratio (injector on-time) based on the signal from the 02
sensor. This controls the air/fuel ratio very close to 14.7:1.

 

 

Without the heater wires working, then the O2 will take longer to work correctly, and the ECU will stay in Open Loop longer.  I don't see the lack of a heater causing a check engine code.

 

The BOSCH 13030 (correct connector and wiring) and the 15704 (which has the wrong connector and needs to be spliced , CRIMPED not soldered) have 2 white wires for the heater circuit.  Then it has a Black wire for the signal, and a grey wire for the ground.  That grey does have to be connected, since it is the ground.  You do not necessarily need the white wires.

Travis

Vulcan Grey 89SE

My Lotus Photo and Projects Album

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In running freescan, what I'm seeing with 15704 is that my car goes into closed loop immediately upon start.  My car doesn't have the connector that matches 13030, so i'll try crimping it this time around.  I've seen mixed info about the soldering/crimping route...never quite understood that, so any info you may know would be helpful. 

Pete

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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Hi Travis. Why wouldn't you solder them?

Just interested!!

Glyn

 

Several reasons.

 

1) solder in an automotive use is usually not as reliable as a good crimp due the potential for a cold solder joint, higher strain at the solder joint, and or corrosion.

2)Some O2 sensors actually use the wires (between the strands) to get their reference oxygen measurement.

3)It may not really cause a problem with the Lotus type of O2 sensor, but some could be using the seebeck effect, similar to a thermocouple, which is influenced by each junction in the wire.  Thermocouple wires are welded or crimped rather than soldered, since the solder could change the measurement by adding a 3rd metal into the junction. 

 

From BOSCH http://www.boschautoparts.com/BAP_Technical_Resources%2FOxygen%20Sensors%2FO2InstallGDWEB09.pdf

 

Do NOT solder wires. Soldering wires will lead to early sensor failure.

Travis

Vulcan Grey 89SE

My Lotus Photo and Projects Album

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Just got my 13030...same issue.  Goes right into closed loop at a cold start.  My freescan report shoes this at the moment. I'm sort of at the same question - what triggers the closed loop?  I may put my original 3 wire o2 sensor back in and see what happens...

 

13030 Graph is first...

15704 Graph is below that

post-5895-0-36574300-1412370051.jpg

post-5895-0-32515300-1412370060.jpg

Edited by DayOff

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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Here's the other 15704 o2 sensor...for some reason the forum kept mixing my photo order up.. :)

post-5895-0-81049400-1412370236.jpg

post-5895-0-58552500-1412370245.jpg

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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My car goes into closed loop before the water gets to 40C, and apparently right as the O2 sensor starts oscillating.

 

Have you reset your ECU by removing the main fuse or disconnecting the battery since you changed O2 sensors?

Travis

Vulcan Grey 89SE

My Lotus Photo and Projects Album

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Thanks or the suggestion - I had not this time around, so I disconnected it overnight and ran a test again this morning or about a minute and a half.  Basically it seemed to hit cold loop after 45 seconds now...does that sound about right?  Still not real clear on how this is supposed to work (or what is directing what)... is the ecu supposed to measure the engine temp and not pay attention (aka, go closed loop) until it reaches a certain temp?  Or is it some sort of timed process...(guessing it wouldn't be, as it's directly tied to a variable engine 'warm up' process)....  or is the process of the o2 sensor starting to oscillate the trigger for the ecu to go closed loop?...etc... Or is there another variable/sensor in the mix here?

 

This is what I have right now with a measure of about a minute and 15 sec of warmup time.

 

Pete

 

 

post-5895-0-55091000-1412431301.jpg

post-5895-0-17381700-1412431320.jpg

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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Ok, thanks for posting those... hmmm.  I may be set now, after all.  Time for a test run :)  If it doesn't work, I may try swapping in the old 3 wire sensor, just to see what happens...

 

Pete

Swore there would be no more Lotus Restorations again - But I bought it anyway :) - As Bond would say, 'Never Say Never'...others say "Some never learn"

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Hi, I am having similar problems with my V8 following PNM fitting decat pipes and all 4 new O2 sensors, car runs like a pig for the first half mile or couple of minutes on tick over then once past this point it runs great, O2 sensors are all reporting variable voltage from about .2 to 1 volt, so even though they seem to be working well this could be my problem?

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Jexsi,

 

You posted this question here once before.  This section is for the 4 cylinder Esprits.

 

I moved your question to the Esprit V8 section.  here http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/69286-esprit-v8-stalling/

Travis

Vulcan Grey 89SE

My Lotus Photo and Projects Album

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  • 5 years later...
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Considering the solder vs. crimp issue, think it's safer to go for the proper part and just plug it in:

https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/A918E0322F.htm

The symptoms above sound a little similar to mine - drive directly from a cold start, lose power then stalls at about the time when it goes from closed to open loop. Warm it up first for a few minutes then drive - faultless. O2 sensor CEL now appearing as well. Time to replace I think...

Not surprising that any sensitive electronics sensor plugged directly into an exhaust flow will have a limited life imo.

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