free hit
counters
V6S vs V6 Cup - V6 Exige Chat - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
LF1

V6S vs V6 Cup

Recommended Posts

Excuse my ignorance, and I have been trying to research on this but can't find a definitive list, but are the Cup and the Coupe that different?

 

Considering the brakes can be upgraded and the sticky Trofeo tyres come with the race pack (i think - but are at least an option) and get the suspension setup to suit (not the nitrons I know), all I can see is some weight saving and the adjustable suspension. I've only been on track once at the same time as a cup, that was my first time at oulton so have no real world experience on this but we seemed to keep pace OK after getting to know the track. I would have thought a little driver experience/confidence would soon outweigh this on a regular track day.

 

Not trying to start anything here, but really interested in a definitive list of the differences and what impact they have on the cars?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

Youy're right of course, there are not great differences betwen the Cup and a regular V6. The suspension is definitely better and the car lighter and probably stiffer due to the rear cage and therefore on track given eqaul drivers the Cup will be faster and better to drive but won't romp away into the distance. Regular V6 is a very capable car as you know.

 

Trevor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what the definitive list of differences is either but as far as I know, in the grand scheme of things, they aren't massive. They share the same engine and transmission, so the main difference is going to be slightly less weight, sticky tyres as standard and a more track focussed set up, which will make it quicker over a lap (how many seconds at Hethel?) but not enough to negate a quicker driver in a standard car.

 

In my experience, you need a LOT of extra horsepower to make a car noticeably quicker, and certainly 80hp will make a difference, but not to the extent it will just walk away down every straight - more like open a bit of a gap down every straight in my opinion.

 

By giving the standard car another 50hp, it won't transform it, just make it a bit faster on the straight bits, preventing less other cars from being able to "open a bit of a gap".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assumed the GEO between the cup and coupe would be different, and the cup more track orientated, but when I looked into this Lotus confirmed the two were the same. So other than suspension what other setups are available to make it more track focused, I believe the aero is all the same?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you looking to make yours a lttle nearer to a Cup on track? My understanding is that the Cup cars go to Motorsport for final geo where it's tweaked to make certain the car is spot on where the regular cars are looked at a little less closely. It's more about the feel you get in the car with the lighter weight and higher quality shocks, race seats, less sound deadening (not by nuch though), Cup steering wheel without airbag, harnesses, no radio, fire extiguisher in the footwell, electrical cutoff internally and external, ditto with the fire extinguisher. The motorsport looks from the outside again with the cutoffs, matt paint, towing eyes. All DPM modes as standard. It's not really a faster car but it does have a motorsport edge/feel and all those little bits add to the experience rather than outright lap time/speed.

 

Trevor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really - no where near getting to the level of driving where the car needs enhancements. Just been wondering for a while what the actually differences between the 2 cars are as I have not been able to find a direct comparison, thought it would be interesting to document somewhere (although maybe not on this thread).

 

The reason for my GEO investigation was that i was seeing incredible wear on the outside of the tyres, whilst virtually new on the inside. A racer commented as soon as he saw them not enough camber, so in investigated, partly based on Jonny's comments that his tyres lasted a good few track days. When I discovered that they were the same the GEO was checked and some adjustments were made on my car (have the report - not quite sure how to interpret), I just put it down to my driving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have agreed that there wasn't enough camber. Do you know if they adjusted it? What the reading before and after?

Trevor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In capable hands the Cup car is definitely faster but at the level of the average track day driver, the advantages are easily wiped out by a faster driver in a V6S. The same would be true of a 911 GT3 vs GT3RS, F430 vs 430 Scuderia and so on. That doesnt mean there isn't a difference. To get to the point where an average driver can pull away from a real hotshoe one you need a huge gulf in performance. Well driven hot hatches can easily get past poorly driven exotics. Just as it should be with a Cup car, the main advantages are to be felt at 8 tenths and above. Someone driving their V6S at 6 tenths of the car's potential won't go any quicker driving a V6 Cup at 6 tenths of its potential.

 

I wouldn't be able to keep up with Jokke in his V6S around Spa but even though his car has the Nitrons, an intake mod and (I think) the uprated brakes, the other Belgian Stig, Waky, has gone even faster in his V6 Cup. They are both highly skilled drivers but by his own admission Waky does not put himself at the same level as Jokke but clearly he's not far behind. Ron Simons said there was a clear difference in how the cars drove on the circuit and he's as straight talking as they come.

 

I'd say the Cup makes it easier for everyone to achieve a certain lap speed.

 

From the supplementary manual, the Cup car's geo is: -0.4 front camber, +2.8 front caster, -0.03 toe out per wheel, at the rear it's -1.9 camber, +0.3 toe in per wheel. The Cup cars definitely ride lower too, it looks like at least 20mm when parked next to a V6S. Regardless, tweaking the Nitrons makes a big difference to how the car turns. 2 or 3 clicks is noticeable and you have 17 clicks available at the front and 21 at the back to play with.

 

The weight difference is significant, especially on an already light car. It's nearly the weight of a passenger and most Elise and Exige owners would say they can notice the difference between driving two-up and solo. Not everyone will be sensitive to that difference but it should aid braking, corner speed and acceleration out of the turns, all to a small degree but one which adds up over a lap. In percentage terms a 66kg reduction from an Exige is the equivalent of at least 100kg out of a 911 GT3. Of course you can get all the Cup parts fitted to a V6S, to the point where the weight difference is the only difference but the V6S will cost you more. So the only reasonable comparison is between a standard V6S and a standard V6 Cup.

 

Diego and I had a nice comparison around Hethel and he'll agree that there's nothing in it in a straight line but that the composure and body control of the Cup car makes a big difference in the corners. The way these cars corner in capable hands is quite something from the passenger seat I can assure you!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Jonny - interesting read. I do most of my track days with my wife along side, she's pretty slight, but even then I notice quite a difference with the car, so I certainly would not dismiss the weight gains. I think that the biggie is the suspension, pushing to get adjustable on the Elise Cup we are looking at currently.

 

Out of interest here are my Geo settings:

 

geo_zpsezflyksf.jpg

 

I wanted to increase the rear camber but the people doing it said shims were required, although I have had it confirmed this is not the case. Not driven the car on track since these changes were made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you were chaps.

 

I can't see the geo settings Tom, just a white question mark in a blue box.

 

Top Secret LF1 geo settings? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Odd - I used dropbox, I think it was trying to be clever, just moved to another image site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you were chaps.

 

I can't see the geo settings Tom, just a white question mark in a blue box.

 

Top Secret LF1 geo settings? ;)

 

Reading your post and comparing to mine report, although they have sorted out the steering alignment, wondering if the toe changes are incorrect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding camber and wear of tyres, this is what I mentioned some months before. A lot of wear on the rear wheels, which shows, that there must be some more camber.

 

Furthermore I have understeer whenever I press the gas pedal in or after curves and corners, no matter how fast I put down the gas pedal.

Just got some new damper with adjustment from Bilstein, leave the same springs and will try to find out what will happen with some more camber and stiffer dampers.

Edited by Freejack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Freejack

Before adding camber allround I would try some rear toe less...it could be too closed reading your words. 

Stiffer dampers by themselves don't fix the understeer.

This on the S1 :B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furthermore I have understeer whenever I press the gas pedal in or after curves and corners, no matter how fast I put down the gas pedal.

Just got some new damper with adjustment from Bilstein, leave the same springs and will try to find out what will happen with some more camber and stiffer dampers.

 

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/68930-exige-s-dealing-with-understeer/

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding camber and wear of tyres, this is what I mentioned some months before. A lot of wear on the rear wheels, which shows, that there must be some more camber.

Furthermore I have understeer whenever I press the gas pedal in or after curves and corners, no matter how fast I put down the gas pedal.

Just got some new damper with adjustment from Bilstein, leave the same springs and will try to find out what will happen with some more camber and stiffer dampers.

Yea, the problem is that I am at the high end of Lotus tolerence already, any more and I have been warned about warranty issues. Definitely going Cup next time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stiffer dampers by themselves don't fix the understeer.

 

It depends how and when you deal with understeer. The Exige creates understeer when accelerating in a curve, because the rear dampers are too soft. This you can correct with stiffer dampers at the rear end.

Edited by Freejack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe there are lots of ways to alter under steer, softening the front dampers, a little less pressure in the front tyres, harder on the rear dampers etc. I think a lot depends on your driving style as to how you tackle this.

Trevor.

Yea, the problem is that I am at the high end of Lotus tolerence already, any more and I have been warned about warranty issues. Definitely going Cup next time.

I'm surprised you are suffering so badly and feel it's a setup issue perhaps. I would recommend Wheels in Motion in Chesham for a geo setup. Very friendly and will happily talk you through things.

Trevor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Trevor. Thanks, my geo was checked (pic above). Interesting to see how it is tomorrow (Spa) on the Corsas. But I am definitely going for a full geo sometime soon.

My problem is I am learning, so need to be very careful to only change one thing at a time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spa! Rub it in why don't you :-). Only place I found understeer there was the hairpin which is off camber, with Trofeos fitted. Be interesting to hear how you got on. Have fun.

Trevor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Miki Biasion (several times world rally champion with Lancia Delta) says that undesteer doesn't exist: it is you that are too fast in that piece of corner : )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some truth in that i'm sure, if you're on the loose stuff.

 

Trevor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Understeer definitely exists .... but .... what do I know.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not seen this posted anywhere by Jokke:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×