Lost that Lotus feeling

[Jonathan]

Blamed this on my new tyres initially in that they haven't scrubbed in yet but it's been a fair few miles now and the car is, frankly horrible to drive. It's never been as good as the original wheels since I changed.

Just been out on a little warm up drive (10 miles or so down the motorway) and instead of having a smile I'm quite honestly relieved to be back in 1 piece. The wheel is shaking, the car is crabbing like mad and it's pretty scarey to drive at over 90, you end up gripping the wheel for your life and making numerous corrections as the car seems to skip/crab on the road

Some 'thing' came up behind me off the slip and no matter how much I hate being over taken I couldn't take it higher than 100, the car feels very unsafe - it shakes like nobodies business - it's just....vile. It's got much better since I recuded to camber towards zero but again this is really compromising my cornering grip, the car scrabbles and skips to hold onto the road as I found out in London the other night.

Gonna check sometime to ensure there's nothing lose on the suspension (hardly think so but...)

Anyone had their cars setup propperly as they like them ? Do Lotus offer this service does anyone know ?

I know my suspension isn't the best and the dampers have seen better days but I feel just a simply geometry check + adjustment is going to be a waste of time - I've done the camber / toe myself and the car is in spec.

EDIT :

Just changed the camber back to the original setting, no damage inside that I could see.

Tyre scrub was about 3-4mm slanted to the OUTSIDE of the tyre (missing all the markers on the outside, still there on the inside) so my feeling about too much camber was right as the scrub was happening more on the outside than the inside.

Ride height at the front is also about 10mm over what it should be, probably has a lot to do with the fact the dampers are blown to bits (hardly any damping there now) and the spring has no resistance, probably wont help at speed with the nose being lighter and up in the air. Loaded the car up with car batteries and got about -0.5 degrees (should be -0.9) front and about -0.3 degrees (should be -1 degree) rear.

Test drove it around my local roundabout at about 50mph (fun) with zero skip and very smooth which was amazing considering I only removed about 0.3 degrees camber !! Totally different car in the corners but have to wait for the high speed test (conditions not too good here).

Drivers front has a house brick attached to it for the ballencing, no really...it must weight about 1/2 a kilo !

There's at least 70 grams on the other side to counter it, so thats coming off, smae side they put a normal valve on so they possible shagged it up - the other has about 30 grams tops.

Good news is it's definatly better, cant believe how such a small change makes it so - gonna sort that bloody tyre asap and certainly look at the Lotus suspension before going crazy on that geometry, with the front riding so high there is little point anyways.

[matk]

Jon

On the factory day Lotus were very specific, factory spec setup is with weight of 2 people and half a fuel tank. If you don't follow this you won't get the right performance.

I had mine set up by Paul Matty and frankly the car was a revelation afterwards. I also had the Geo check at Hethel and didn't tell Matty beforehand. The Matty "before" printout shows exactly the same "wrongness" as the Hethel which gave me the confidence that Matty knew what they were up to.

Cost IIRC was approx

[esprits4de]

As I was once thinking about changing the wheels on my S4 to the V8 sizes, which due to future power increase I will have to do anyway, I was momentarily led to stop that thought. Why ?

After changing the brake system from the old Celica-system to the Brembo-system, my car experienced real troubles in totaly offset braking behaviour, pulling the car unexplainably to the right, and only after multiple left and right interchanges of callipers, disks, ect at the shop the car became drivable again. Therefore I decided not to touch this setup for a while.

Anyway, the guys at the shop could only come up with one explanation :

The combination of worn bushings, dampers and "maybe" on the limit tolerances in the whole system must have caused the situation. Cure : exchange all PE bushings, new dampers and a complete new adjustment of the setup needed. I decided to pass on this for as long as possible, as it is drivable, and other mods come first.

....

[Jonathan]

Prob also with mine is that it's shed a few pounds in weight - not too extreme but it'll make the back different.

I've done a lot of work on geometry as far as reseach is concerned becuase of the up and coming track car, to me I have too much positive camber which is why it doens't feel like it's gripping in the corners (I have changed that to be fair it's running about 0.25 negative when it should be closer to -1 degree) but I can't work out why the high speed straight line is so incredibly bad - mebbe the toes is out slightly but you have to drive it to realise just how little grip there is at speed, it's bloody scarey sometimes - it's like driving on the rumble strip or those things they put in the road to make you realise there's a roundabout ahead (like your eyes arn't good enough ?!).

[iainskea]

Geez Jonathan - that's scary!

I can't but think there is something loose to get the shaking. My car had the shakes till I replaced the anti-roll bar bushes, which I couldn't see any movement in, but there you are.

Iain

Edited December 13, 2006 by iainskea

[chris]

Hi, I've had problems like that before and it took me ages to get to bottom of it. I ended up having to start somewhere and systimatically change everything till i got to the bottom of it. Certain things i found out on the way are...

1. Front wheel bearings can cause all of the symptoms you have. They only have to be slightly worn.

2. When balencing tyres watch the garage and make sure there is less than 50 weights applied to the wheel. If there is more then get them to take the wheel off and turn it a quarter of a turn. Dont let them fob you off it makes a real difference. Tyres should have a dot where the valve is supposed to be but the dot is often not put in the right place.

3. Replacing the bushes can help ensure there is no play in suspension and isn't to expensive.

4. Ensure the steering rack is good including the universal joints.

Hope you get to the bottom of it mate cause its horrid when the esprit isn't quite right. Good luck

[docf]

Prob also with mine is that it's shed a few pounds in weight - not too extreme but it'll make the back different.

I've done a lot of work on geometry as far as reseach is concerned becuase of the up and coming track car, to me I have too much positive camber which is why it doens't feel like it's gripping in the corners (I have changed that to be fair it's running about 0.25 negative when it should be closer to -1 degree) but I can't work out why the high speed straight line is so incredibly bad - mebbe the toes is out slightly but you have to drive it to realise just how little grip there is at speed, it's bloody scarey sometimes - it's like driving on the rumble strip or those things they put in the road to make you realise there's a roundabout ahead (like your eyes arn't good enough ?!).

I also had some major headaches finding a good setup in my car.. i also shed some weight around 180 pounds if i did the math right and my car had been hit in the front before i bought it. Having basically dismantled and rebuilt the entire front end of the car here are some tips:

1. Check the steering rack mounts.. make sure everything is nice and tight. The rack is cast aluminum and there are alot of weak points in the mounts that can crack

2. Make sure your rack is centered.. meaning there is an equal amount of turns to the right and left from center. This was the single biggest problem with my setup and made a huge difference once corrected.

3. Replace bushings and ball joints if you havent done so already. Fairly cheap and easy weekend project. If you dont have a press take the arms off the car and have a machine shop press in the new bushings.

4. Dont mess with lotus specs on the suspension. I tried various combinations of toe/camber and the car just handled like ass and shredded an expensive set of tires in <100 miles. You said that you just replaced tires.. any pics of the old ones? Maybe we can do a post mortem on em for any telltale signs.

5. Check the rack for play. Jack up the front end and by hand move each wheel left right to check for any play in the rack. While you're under there pull the boots off the inner tie rod ends and check them for damage. Grease those joints really well.. on my car they almost always stiffen up if the cars been sitting for a while.

Thats about all I can think of. The front suspension is really simple on these cars but does not tolerate misalignment or worn bushings at all. If you havent done so already take it to an alignment shop and as them to just check your settings. If you are doing a ghetto alignment like I do.. with wooden planks and string it couldnt hurt to get a set of real numbers from a machine. Bad tramlining is almost always a toe problem so thats where I would start.

[lottylotus]

you will sort it , i am sure, any pics of the interior you considered selling?

nigel

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the input chasps !

The probs all started really with the V8 wheels. I bought them 2nd hand and the fronts were scrubbed from the inside out (almost bald but legal) - my camber setting obviously hated them (becuase they hadn't crubbed them) and the car was nasty with it so I changed the camber - the next day I drove to hethel (of all places) on possibly the worst drive of my life, the body was shaking like an earthquake as the tyres were trying to putt the steering one way and the other - it was only good on heavily cambered roads.

So I put new tyres on and decided to start afresh which made a huge difference, still shudders and the body still complains on cornering (makes clonking noises) but it's better - I had hoped the tyres would scrub in and make good but it doesn't seem like it. Back tracking I only changed the camber to give the tyres a chance to scrub evenly - perhaps I have to put up with eccentric wear for the drivability.

I'm 1/2 tempted to put the Old S4 wheels (originals) back on and see if there is a marked difference but I'm concerned all this vibration has done something to upset the suspension so ideally I want to take them off and have a good rummage around in there to ensure everything is OK (which I am sure it is).

It's not so much tram-lining as opposed to the car hits a divot in the road and jumps - it's actually very much like the Elise, where with that car the bumps move the very light steering but with this (being power assisted) the car just jumps and you find yourself correcting it, it's a wierd sensation.

I'll try and get it in for a checkup (can't hurt I supose, although I am confident it's OK) but getting anyone to do anything these days is hard work !

[Paul C]

SE's been fine, but on my S3 i had the following problem:

Put your foot down at speed and the car was 100% stable, but take your

foot off the throttle and it wanted to snake from side to side (like when you

get the wobbles on a skateboard, or like driving on ice/surface water).

Was the rear wheel bearing on one side. With the power on the wheel was forced into

a position it had no way of moving, but power off and it moved the full extent of the wear

which then showed a lot at speed.

Dunno if it's what you got, checked yer pressures? they's sensitive on them...

[Artie]

Thanks for the input chasps !

The probs all started really with the V8 wheels. I bought them 2nd hand and the fronts were scrubbed from the inside out (almost bald but legal) - my camber setting obviously hated them (becuase they hadn't crubbed them) and the car was nasty with it so I changed the camber - the next day I drove to hethel (of all places) on possibly the worst drive of my life, the body was shaking like an earthquake as the tyres were trying to putt the steering one way and the other - it was only good on heavily cambered roads.

So I put new tyres on and decided to start afresh which made a huge difference, still shudders and the body still complains on cornering (makes clonking noises) but it's better - I had hoped the tyres would scrub in and make good but it doesn't seem like it. Back tracking I only changed the camber to give the tyres a chance to scrub evenly - perhaps I have to put up with eccentric wear for the drivability.

I'm 1/2 tempted to put the Old S4 wheels (originals) back on and see if there is a marked difference but I'm concerned all this vibration has done something to upset the suspension so ideally I want to take them off and have a good rummage around in there to ensure everything is OK (which I am sure it is).

It's not so much tram-lining as opposed to the car hits a divot in the road and jumps - it's actually very much like the Elise, where with that car the bumps move the very light steering but with this (being power assisted) the car just jumps and you find yourself correcting it, it's a wierd sensation.

I'll try and get it in for a checkup (can't hurt I supose, although I am confident it's OK) but getting anyone to do anything these days is hard work !

Jonathan,

Did you have the tires dynamically balanced? Did they do them on a machine that spun them up to speed then balance from there? Also, what about the tire pressure? Is it even all around? I think it's 28psi front and rear on the 17/18" combo, which is what I have, I took my car in for some upholstry work and the guy filled a seemingly low right rear tire unbeknownst to me, when I drove the car home I couldn't figure out why it drove like absolute Crap! Bounced and shimmyed like never before. A few days later as I was doing some cleaning I decided to check the tire pressures as I hadn't for a while and low and behold. Fronts were down to 22psi each and the left rear was down to 26psi and the right rear was at 52psi!!!! Sorted them all to 28psi and Voila, baby smooth again. Just a thought worth looking into. Sometimes it's the simple stuff that I overlook, ready for the BIG BiLL items to be the problem!

Artie

[Jonathan]

I'd be amazed if it was something wrong with the car itself as opposed to the wheels / tyres - if anything falls off / leaks I know about it (car maintenance is my obsession). Same with pressures - I'm a little goblin when it comes to things like this - I generally check the critical stuff weekly or before a long run (coolant, oil, pressures, brakes and other fluids).

I'm gonna re-do the camber again on the weekend at work and also look at the weights on the wheels - I dunno how they were balanced but it just so happens they were worse when they came back - I really put this down to the unscrubbed tyres but this is way to viggorous to ignore now, iirc they did pile weights onto one side of the rim.

[tribetype40]

Hi Jonathon,

Did you ever sort this problem it seems very similar to what Im getting, although mine doesn't sound so severe. Its fairly steady but seems to catch the bumps in the road more than it should and I'm constently having to add corrections to the steering even on dead ahead. your always fighting it (i doubt this is an Esprit traight?!)

I also have V8 wheels on a GT3. Thing is I have notice a light click in the steering. with the car partked, engine running I can get the steering wheel and give it a sharp(ish) qtr turn, then let go. The wheel wants straighten up a little as is to be expected and its when I release my grip on the steering wheel that you can hear a click or clonk.

I had a friend do this while I stuck my head in the wheel arch to listen. I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from but putting my finger on the rack/track rod end I could feel the clonk, so something is loose or there is play in it. is the rack mechanism susseptable to wear? if it is its the first one I have seen!

I will replace the rack if nessecary but want to find out for sure as its and exspensive item and may only need something adjusting/tighening/new bushes etc.

Does anyone have any experiance of the steering racks? is changing one a major ball ache etc..

Cheers

Doug

[dodgy]

i was having a very similar feeling with mine - car was wandering and had a clunk, also was having trouble going around islands( terrible under-steer ) all i did was change the track rod end on the car (slight wear) and have it tracked.

as for the click, it could be the TRE or, it could be a rusty/worn lower UJ on the steering column , have you checked them lately Doug

i replaced my steering column before i found out it was the cheaper option - TRE and lower UJ

its like a new car now

[Jonathan]

I haven't done much to it lately becuase I have been restoring the front suspension - I've got a quiet hope the car might be back on the road for week after next with the new Lotus dampers.

Found out the car was definatly un-balanced on the suspension, I have both front dampers off now and they are chalk and cheese in their operation and that will affec the car a lot imo. The front was also riding high for some reason by about 15mm, I think the dampers might have had something to do with that but that's speculation as I don't know how they're constructed - some dampers have an internal bump stop that prevents the rod from extening too far....we'll see when I fit the new stuff !

The camber change helped as well but when I get it back on the road after this little clean up I am going to get it properly aligned again and checked over. New dampers, springs, bushes and geometry should be the best platform to work from.

I still would like the car to be taken to Lotus, the idea being they can take it, sling it around the track and give me an appraisal on the car's setup.

One odd things was when I took in on the track at Brands a few weeks ago...OK it was a circuit but OMG that car felt soooooooooo planted and extremely confidence inspiring but I have a feeling that was to do with the inward camber of the surface as opposed to the convex surface of a normal road.

In comparison from the original wheels the car's handling changes a LOT. The skinnier tyres allowed you to feel the road more imo, the car felt lighter and more agile. On turn in it seemsed to lean into the corner much like an Elise does as opposed to mine atm which seems to crab or skip when you go past the griping point - tricky to describe but I would know the difference instantly.

Personally I prefered the skinnier tyres - as I say I used to drive it with my fingertips as opposed to gripping the wheel to keep it pointed. I know Dave (the P/O of your car) thought the car was better with the wider tyres on but that was his style, unique to him.

One final suggestion Dave Minters (Lotus ride & handling + general driving god) gave to me was that the wider the tyre the more leverage it has on the steering and the more ability it has on an imperfect surface to pull the car left or right which makes sense, I might try adding a little castor to see if that weighs up my steering a bit and give me more straight line stability but 1st things 1st - full geo check and so on.

If I get to the end of it I'll make it known and change the 'Setup' page on my site - hopefully have that info within the month !