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S2 resurrection after 25 years in storage - Page 17 - Esprit 'Project & Restoration' Room - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
Rolls

S2 resurrection after 25 years in storage

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If you know where the rail to seat fasteners are you could drill an access hole in the bottom rail, over the fastener. I'm just thinking less heat/sparks/mess than pulling out ye olde grinder.

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There's a cavity under the firewall. Very close to the fuel tank area. On the underside of the Car. Make sure you refurbish the roll over pipe and valve.

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I'm not sure if  many of you do your own body work? Here's a tip if you do, which I learnt from someone that's been glassing for decades....

He stated that you should match the epoxy to the matting type. I have been using the west epoxy 105 system which is not really good to use with chop strand. It doesn't wet out the binder completely that's embedded into the matting. You need to use weave cloth instead for epoxy. If you want to use matting, use a resin instead.

⚡️⚡️⚡️

 

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Another interesting thing to note is regarding general cracking. I'm told cracking can be caused by different thicknesses of the panel caused by expanding and contracting at different rates. This is more of an issue on very hot days and particularly for black cars. 

If you look at some of the panels closely once they have been sodablasted, there's a lot of micro cracks in the corners where there is thick, brittle resin (eg. headlight pods). This is because the resin pooled in the corners of the moulds when the car was made. Over the years, they subsequently crack under the paint due to different expansion properties. 

So in summary, I've gone to great lengths to ensure my fiberglass repairs are the same thickness as the rest of the panel.

I'm also taken care to ensure the repairs are 99% fiberglass with just a thin smear of fine filler on the top.

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I used West 105/205 extensively aboard a cat I lived on and learned that lesson with matting the hard way very early on. 105/205 is versatile stuff once you learn it's properties. Great info about cracking caused by varying thickness.

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Good luck on the reading Roland,  will be interested to find out the differences between between the resins and epoxy resins.   

Looking into the west coast epoxy systems at the moment, although it's more expensive than conventional resins I do love the carbon effect matting they produce for these systems and the extra strength and durability that the epoxy offers :)

 


A

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Just be aware that you can bond epoxy to polyester, but not the other way around. I am going to use epoxy for the high strength parts, and polyester for the rest I think. Good luck with your project

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West is ONLY compatiable with matting. Not chopped strand. If I had my time again I would think twice about using epoxy.

West is ONLY compatiable with matting. Not chopped strand. If I had my time again I would think twice about using epoxy.

the other thing to remember the weakest link in laying up class is the resin. Less is more. Just need enough to wet it out.

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Sorry, I hit send too quickly :sofa:

Too busy watching the last episode of house of cards. Brilliant.

What i meant to say is:

West is ONLY compatiable with cloth. Not chopped strand. If I had my time again I would think twice about using West epoxy.

The other thing I neglected to mention, the weakest link in laying up class is the resin. Less is more. Just need enough to wet it out.

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23 hours ago, Clive59 said:

Just be aware that you can bond epoxy to polyester, but not the other way around. I am going to use epoxy for the high strength parts, and polyester for the rest I think. Good luck with your project

Hi Clive. What you've stated is a very common misnomer. Here's proof:

http://epoxyworks.com/index.php/applying-polyester-gelcoat-over-epoxy/

For those of you that don't have time to watch, you can put poly over epoxy (west system anyway).

Good to now this stuff as the consequences of getting it wrong are massive. I intend to spray my entire car with upol reface. 

Bodywork - oh what fun.

 

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That is really interesting Roland. I was told this by a good friend who has used both polyester and epoxy in boatbuilding, and he has many years of experience. I will ask his opinion, as I understand there is a very good chemistry reason for the incompatibility. I will let you know what I find.

 

 

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On 02/07/2017 at 00:04, Rolls said:

Hi Clive. What you've stated is a very common misnomer. Here's proof:

 

OK, have some more info.

re the article, it is specifically aimed at gelcoat, but here are my friends comments:

"You can use gelcoat over epoxy but it's a pain. Polyester resin doesn't stick reliably or often at all to epoxy. Also gelcoat cures in absence of air. So it's best in moulds. Otherwise you have to add a heap of wax to it to make a film so air is blocked. Normal polyester resin air cures, won't stick to epoxy. Gelcoat needs a non air cure (ie enclosed in mould or wax added) and can stick to epoxy sometimes. Air cure normal gelcoat and the surface will stay uncured and sticky. Underneath might be OK. Also there is a third variation of Flocoat which is a bit like non glossy gelcoat. It is quite happy to stick to epoxy also air cures but it isn't very glossy for final finishing."

 

This is from a group:  http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001045.html

 

Not hardening when exposed to air is a property of gelcoat. You have to cover it up to get it to harden.

You can spray it with Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA), or you can cover it with a sheet of platic wrap.

Also, introducing the tinting agent may have affected the catalyzation. Perhaps you needed a little more catalyst.

One interesting difference between epoxy and polyester resins like gelcoat:

With epoxy you are supplying two different sets of molecules (the resin and the hardener) which will chemically link up and bond. Therefore it is very important to mix them in the exact ratios, otherwise you'll have some of one type of molecule left over and not bonded to anything, making the batch weaker.

With resin, the stuff is all set to harden, it is just waiting for the catalyst to start the reaction. Once started, it is a matter of time, temperature, and reaction rate before it cures. Apparently the presence of air inhibits curing to a hard surface.

When making boats in female molds, the gelcoat goes in first and thus cures to hardness because it is later covered with more material. In fact, this is an advantage because you want the follow-up layers to form a primary bond to the gelcoat layer. So the laminate layers are added as the gelcoat is curing, and they all cure together with primary bonds.

Epoxy is a stronger adhesive and can produce stronger secondary bonds than polyester resins, so for making repairs is produces better bonding.

The knock on epoxy (besides the higher cost) is that some people have trouble topcoating epoxy with gelcoat. That is caused by failure to remove the amine blush on the cured epoxy, which can only be removed by hard scrubbing with soap and water. Solvents like acetone will not remove amine.

I have the repair-with-epoxy trick down pretty well, but I am still learning about topcoating with gelcoat and getting a good match. There are some holes on the transom that will be my next spot for experimentation.

--jimh

 

So, I think the principle of not putting polyester over epoxy is well founded, with some exceptions as you found Roland, but that article was specifically relating to gelcoat. I think I'll avoid polyester resin over epoxy. So if any doubt exists as to whether you are repairing resin or epoxy, I would use epoxy to repair.

 

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Nice job Roland, are you any good at ski racks?

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I'd have a crack if you want to send over what you have lol.

Otherwise, If you want me to talk you through it PM me. Easypeasey!

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Regarding the seam around the car I have used carbon fiber square rods glassed on with resin and tissue, they works great but they are hard to bend on wheelarches.  Have fun. ?

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Great idea on the seams Giorgio,  Had your car been completely stripped of the seam that runs around the car then ?


A

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That's a great tip. Any further hints regarding the curves on the wheel arches ?. Is the carbon flexible enough?image.thumb.jpg.c4b7e2acc758e8fda2ee4916a0d3aa7d.jpg

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thanks for the tip regarding the carbon fibre rod. I've bought them but I'm not confident applying them. Am I right in saying:

1/grind away the seam where required.

2/fill the hole with Fiberglass microsphere filler so the surface is flat

3/fiberglass fillet the rods in place. I guess I just measure to ensure they re in position.

4/then put one coat of tissue over 

 

is that right? Do you have any pics @giorgio67?

 

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I look forward to the reply Roland on this one chap,  As i would like to see how it is done,  I like the thought of laying glass over it,  but i am strongly tempted to use a strong glue and a few well placed small stainless steel screws ?   But would love to see the above method,  i have a lot to do as one of mine was deseamed apart from the wheel arches for some reason :ermm: 


A

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It's right but good only for straight sections, the carbon fiber is impossible to bend. On the weelarch you need to build up some fiberglass and go by hands with 120grade paper . It's a long long task... have fun

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IMG_3064.thumb.JPG.7001a35805b9b338400c38e8c0a0f6a6.JPG

decided to remove the damaged section completely. Looking for a premium finish.

IMG_3067.thumb.JPG.047158661548c0cdb917b7440c4e7733.JPGmold made from the other side. Getting the fabric into the lip is really tricky. Lots of release agent. Remember to match the fabric with  the bonding agent. It sets off the binders.

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ready to be reattached. I now have a set of molds for the arch lips. About to do the same for the front.

 

 

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Lovely work there Rolls. Are you going to scarf that?

I've a couple of other questions and thought you'd be the man because it's all fresh in your head. Was wondering did you take the intake ducts off the car and if you did how did you release the hose off the back of them, mine seem to be glued on. The other thing was whether your fittings for the headlamp hinges were all uniform or were they mismatched? I have three that are some variation of an oblong fitting that are each held by two rivets, and one that is bonded directly into the body.

George

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Just as a side-note George, I've been watching your restoration vlogs - fantastic work and really enjoying the footage and format. Keep them coming!!:thumbup:

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